Flu

[Nuff Said 5,131]

The reason alternative medicine is called alternative medicine is because if it worked it would be called medicine.

Nuff said.

 

[Ray 111]

Nuff Said,

An interesting take on the topic.  Natural remedies have been around for thousands if not millions of years, depending on your point of view, therefore the alternative is in essence the modern medicine of vaccines, etc.  Purely semantics I know and I know I used the term "Alternative Health" but I find it interesting that what has been around for so long is now labelled 'alternative' as opposed to the medical breakthroughs that have come about in the last 100 years or so.

That aside, it does work, does it all work all the time? No, but then neither do all the 'modern' medicines, such as chemotherapy (a form of mustard gas), nor do all vaccines, many of which by the way contain a form of aluminium and even thimerosal, which is mercury based.

My overriding point is that as a nation we have absolved ourselves of taking personal responsibility for our health, assuming the state will automatically cure all our ills.  In whatever form, surely prevention is better than cure, and probably a lot less expensive and I for one prefer to do this as naturally as I can

[lake district canary 4,531]

48 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

The reason alternative medicine is called alternative medicine is because if it worked it would be called medicine.

Nuff said.

 

The reason it's called alternative medicine is often because it is still medicine, but made from natural products. A lot of medicines you get over the counter are full of natural products put into convenient little tablets.  Those sort are what I would call conveience medicine.  Alternative medicine is often better because it has more beneficial things about it than a simple tablet. For example, oregano oil contains phenol plus a lot of other beneficial natural substances - phenol useful in fighting colds. 

The problem is that as with anything natural or alternative - is that the dosages are harder to scale - and you can overdo it, so you have to have some idea what you are doing.  For simple stuff like colds and flu then, natural (or alternative) is better if you have the time (and money) to look into it and get the natural products.

"Alternative" isn't bad - it's just different. Dismissing alternative medicine out of hand isn't helpful, because many people benefit from it.   Fine, if you have a cold or flu, go and buy the neatly packaged packs of tablets from boots or wherever, nothing wrong with that, but maybe natural stuff - like lemon, honey, a little oregano oil or whatever, will do the job, often just as well. 

 

[Hairy Canary 699]

Fine for easing symptoms such as sore throats; preventative qualities I'm not so sure.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

🎵Ooo eee ooo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang....

[Nuff Said 5,131]

2 hours ago, Ray said:

Nuff Said,

An interesting take on the topic.  Natural remedies have been around for thousands if not millions of years, depending on your point of view, therefore the alternative is in essence the modern medicine of vaccines, etc.  Purely semantics I know and I know I used the term "Alternative Health" but I find it interesting that what has been around for so long is now labelled 'alternative' as opposed to the medical breakthroughs that have come about in the last 100 years or so.

That aside, it does work, does it all work all the time? No, but then neither do all the 'modern' medicines, such as chemotherapy (a form of mustard gas), nor do all vaccines, many of which by the way contain a form of aluminium and even thimerosal, which is mercury based.

My overriding point is that as a nation we have absolved ourselves of taking personal responsibility for our health, assuming the state will automatically cure all our ills.  In whatever form, surely prevention is better than cure, and probably a lot less expensive and I for one prefer to do this as naturally as I can

So much to go at here...

1. Define natural. Aspirin is derived from willow bark, is that a "natural" remedy?
2. Because a treatment worked for you, or your wife or even both of you, does that mean it is proven? No. Do you know that you would have caught flu without it? No. Correlation is not causation.
3. "what has been around for so long is now labelled 'alternative' as opposed to the medical breakthroughs that have come about in the last 100 years or so" - I'm not so sure. I would suggest that it's the stuff that is tested and that fails those tests which is labelled 'alternative'.
4. Please, please, please don't throw aspersions on vaccination, unless you have some very concrete evidence - just listing some potentially iffy ingredients in no way invalidates the enormous, in fact enormously enormous improvements in public health they have delivered. Look at the damage Andrew Wakefield caused and the recent growth in diseases that were previously considered beaten like mumps and measles. People who spread unjustified rumours about vaccination need to understand their responsibility for the damage it causes to children and think carefully before doing it.
5. I can't see the link between your overriding point about taking personal responsibility for one's own health and alternative medicine. Yes, absolutely educate and treat yourself before calling on our creaking health service, but it's irrelevant whether the treatment you choose is "natural" or not, what matters is if it's effective.

Run out of time, but I could go on and on ...

[Daz Sparks 1,152]

3 hours ago, Ray said:

Nuff Said,

An interesting take on the topic.  Natural remedies have been around for thousands if not millions of years, depending on your point of view, therefore the alternative is in essence the modern medicine of vaccines, etc.  Purely semantics I know and I know I used the term "Alternative Health" but I find it interesting that what has been around for so long is now labelled 'alternative' as opposed to the medical breakthroughs that have come about in the last 100 years or so.

That aside, it does work, does it all work all the time? No, but then neither do all the 'modern' medicines, such as chemotherapy (a form of mustard gas), nor do all vaccines, many of which by the way contain a form of aluminium and even thimerosal, which is mercury based.

My overriding point is that as a nation we have absolved ourselves of taking personal responsibility for our health, assuming the state will automatically cure all our ills.  In whatever form, surely prevention is better than cure, and probably a lot less expensive and I for one prefer to do this as naturally as I can

 

23 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

So much to go at here...

1. Define natural. Aspirin is derived from willow bark, is that a "natural" remedy?
2. Because a treatment worked for you, or your wife or even both of you, does that mean it is proven? No. Do you know that you would have caught flu without it? No. Correlation is not causation.
3. "what has been around for so long is now labelled 'alternative' as opposed to the medical breakthroughs that have come about in the last 100 years or so" - I'm not so sure. I would suggest that it's the stuff that is tested and that fails those tests which is labelled 'alternative'.
4. Please, please, please don't throw aspersions on vaccination, unless you have some very concrete evidence - just listing some potentially iffy ingredients in no way invalidates the enormous, in fact enormously enormous improvements in public health they have delivered. Look at the damage Andrew Wakefield caused and the recent growth in diseases that were previously considered beaten like mumps and measles. People who spread unjustified rumours about vaccination need to understand their responsibility for the damage it causes to children and think carefully before doing it.
5. I can't see the link between your overriding point about taking personal responsibility for one's own health and alternative medicine. Yes, absolutely educate and treat yourself before calling on our creaking health service, but it's irrelevant whether the treatment you choose is "natural" or not, what matters is if it's effective.

Run out of time, but I could go on and on ...

Wise words Nuff Said.

[Ray 111]

Nuff Said,

My original post gave a true story, that is a fact, what it means to those that read it will perhaps depend on their overriding point of view.  

There is plenty of information out there regarding pretty much all types of remedies/medication/prevention/vaccines, etc. etc. and my wife has spent years in research of that material but there is now way I can go into it all here.  I am forming the opinion, maybe erroneously, that some Individuals on here seem to think I am advocating doing away with 'modern' medicine, I am not, my point is that there are often 'natural' remedies/preventions that are cheaper and potentially more effective and that I believe as a nation we should be more cognitive of them.  I am not saying always go the 'natural' way, however I am saying that be aware that some of the 'modern' medicines can have quite debilitating side effects, as of course can natural remedies if over done.  IMO they key is to educate yourself about all the potential choices and make the decision that suits you best.

I guess bottom line, I am saying taking responsibility for keeping our own immune systems 'topped up' at all times will help us fight off viruses, etc. before they really take hold, which will lead to a reduction of the reliance on the NHS and I prefer to do that as naturally as I can, It may not be the way everyone goes and I fully accept that.

Fortunately for both of us I too have run out of time, because I'm sure most posters on here do not want either of us going on and on...

 

 

[Ginja 26]

5 hours ago, Ray said:

That aside, it does work, does it all work all the time? No, but then neither do all the 'modern' medicines, such as chemotherapy (a form of mustard gas), nor do all vaccines, many of which by the way contain a form of aluminium and even thimerosal, which is mercury based.

Whatever the f*ck that means...  didn't you ever take chemistry? By your stupid example I can claim salt is chlorine "based" f*ck sake...

I know I sounds angry and it's because I am, stupids nonsense like this antivaxx sh*t kills people.

[Van wink 2,994]

I always enjoy a  hot toddy.

[Ray 111]

Each to their own Ginja. Enjoy the rest of your evening.

[Ginja 26]

3 minutes ago, Ray said:

Each to their own Ginja. Enjoy the rest of your evening.

I guess if you enjoy propagating lies that end up killing children then "each to their own" indeed, if only people like you would keep their stupidity "each to their own" the world would be a better place.

[Ray 111]

Ginja,

What lies am I propagating exactly, could you be specific.  Nowhere have I said not to vaccinate, if this is what you are inferring, I have however said being aware of the benefits, or disadvantages of both approaches may help in decision making.

 

[Ginja 26]

43 minutes ago, Ray said:

Ginja,

What lies am I propagating exactly, could you be specific.  Nowhere have I said not to vaccinate, if this is what you are inferring, I have however said being aware of the benefits, or disadvantages of both approaches may help in decision making.

Why don't you tell us the exact purpose of this statement...

 "many of which by the way contain a form of aluminium and even thimerosal, which is mercury based."

What are you trying suggest about vaccines exactly? 🤔 I mean I already know what... 🤥

 

[Ginja 26]

Just now, Ginja said:

Why don't you tell us the exact purpose of this statement...

 "many of which by the way contain a form of aluminium and even thimerosal, which is mercury based."

What are you trying suggest about vaccines exactly? 🤔 I mean I already know what... 🤥

*ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* The correct answer is of course, poison, Ray is trying to suggest vaccines are poisonous.

This, is not true, it is a lie, Ray is propagating lies and I have no time for liars, enjoy your evening everyone!

[Ray 111]

Ginja,

If you already know then besides being a mind reader why bother to ask the question.

However, as you have asked, no other purpose than to inform those that were unaware of these facts, of the facts. As I have repeatedly said here, knowledge helps decision making, we are of course responsible for our own decisions.

Whilst I understand there are many studies maintaining that thimerosal is safe, the following makes interesting reading imo.

 In July 1999, the Public Health Service agencies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine manufacturers agreed that thimerosal should be reduced or eliminated in vaccines as a precautionary measure.

 

[Ray 111]

Ginja,

I have never said anything of the sort, ergo I am not a liar.  You on the other hand are twisting my words to propagate your own agenda.

PS) I am and will continue to enjoy my evening, thank you.

 

[Len 74]

I think that different branches of medicine are a bit like different branches of religion or philosophy, each with their own adherents and followers.

On vaccination for example, those who seek compulsorary vaccination or wish to deny non-vaccinated children the right to go to school, belong to a sort of religious extremism akin to that which fuels ISIS.

The holier than thou attitude that modern science is the only thing that is correct, is just as dangerous!

[cornish sam 953]

The problem here is that people are too wedded to their own beliefs. Modern medicine has its place and 'natural' medicine also has its uses, to only believe one works and the other is useless is msiguided and there is a lot of research being done into the active ingredients in 'traditional medicines'. Our overuse of antibiotics (especially in unregulated places such as livestock) is causing massive problems and we of now need the alternatives more than anytime in the last 50 years... Homeopathy on the other hand is just a load of sloblock.

Having said all that, I have more faith In modern medicine because of the empirical side of it and the confidence it gives when it comes to dosages and purity of the active ingredients.

[splendidrush 700]

I wonder what the Team Doctor will say about all this?

[Mello Yello 2,289]

Anyone remember the 'measles parties'......? (Nothing to do with brexit) that's weasels parties......

[Nuff Said 5,131]

10 hours ago, Len said:

I think that different branches of medicine are a bit like different branches of religion or philosophy, each with their own adherents and followers.

On vaccination for example, those who seek compulsorary vaccination or wish to deny non-vaccinated children the right to go to school, belong to a sort of religious extremism akin to that which fuels ISIS.

The holier than thou attitude that modern science is the only thing that is correct, is just as dangerous!

Modern science is the only thing that is proven correct. To go back to my original post, if an 'alternative' treatment undergoes clinical trials and is shown to be effective, it stops being alternative. This isn't religious or faith-based, it's evidence based.

Non-vaccinated children do prove a risk to the herd immunity that vaccination brings so there is clear logic in the suggestion that they be kept away from those who have done the right thing. Using emotive language doesn't help a reasonable debate.

 

There's an obvious caveat to what I say. No system is 100% effective and there will always be flaws, whether human or process, in any system. But individual errors or weaknesses do not invalidate the overall system. The point about science is that by its very process it is open to refinements, testing and improvements. Sometimes external factors like individual or corporate self-interest can distort that. That doesn't mean we should throw away the scientific system, but rather that we should be open and questioning, as Ray kind of suggested, and look to continuously improve how it works. Not revert to unproven remedies based on magical thinking.

 

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

10 hours ago, Mello Yello said:

Anyone remember the 'measles parties'......?

That’s a memory, I’d completely forgotten about them 😁

[lake district canary 4,531]

11 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Modern science is the only thing that is proven correct.

we should be open and questioning, as Ray kind of suggested, and look to continuously improve how it works. Not revert to unproven remedies based on magical thinking.

I would have to add  a caveat to your first statement - "Modern science is the only thing that is proven correct".....to scientists.

Proof that something works is in the eye of the beholder, not just the science or the scientists.  Science provides a fantastic way for remedies and cures to be found and implemeneted for all sorts of illnesses and conditions - but it does not have a monopoly on finding cures.

As to unproven remedies being magical, so called "unproven remedies" help many people and natural remedies are a part of this. Although I agree there is a lot of stuff out there that is dubious (there will always be charlatans trying to push false products to make money), to decry natural remedies is not helpful and there is nothing magical about them - sometimes - quite a lot of times imo - they can work or at least help people through conditions and situations.

People still associate natural remedies with being wrong somehow and I think that goes back to the fad of homeopathy, which was a very dubious practice (although it may help some people).  Natural products can work to improve or even cure conditions where if you go to the doctor and ask him about them, they will not endorse those products because they are not proven - and that is fair enough.  But there is no doubt that somtimes doctors and scientists do not have all the answers and that there can be other ways to go than just accepting what a doctor or scientist tells you.

At the end of the day it is a choice.  I had a problem with my neck a few years ago which was debilitating and stopped me doing stuff - very frustrating - and the clinical or proven solution was to inject botox into muscles. Now I balked at this and said no way are you injecting me with botox and went to look for something else. Now after many trial and error situations, I found out that probably 50% of my problem was mental and 50% physical.  So I embarked on cutting out what I saw as unhealthy food, started doing yoga amd meditation and just accepted my condition, even though it was making things difficult.

So it took a couple of years, but things improved greatly. If I had accepted the clinical solution, I would probably have been stuck with botox injections every couple of months for years, maybe forever. I think it was worth looking into finding a different way forwards other than what science could offer.  In the process I have learned a lot about myself and a lot about alternatives to "science" in all sorts of things. 

Lets be honest here - science is not infallible - and anyway, science changes as scientists find out more about things.  Natural remedies have their place in the world and for some people offer a better way forwards than just acepting what they are told. Its  a choice at the end of the day. Just because it "is not proven" doesn't mean that it does not work.  Life is a risk, but at the end of the day our lives are our own to live.  Doctors and scientists have many of the answers, but they do not have all the answers. 

Apologies for the long post.

 

[cornish sam 953]

Lakey, whilst I kind of agree with most of what you say, homeopathy helps no one and through the practices of the people who push it is actively endangering people with serious but treatable conditions. You would be just as well eating polo mints from a medicine bottle as taking homeopathic remedies...

[cornish sam 953]

One thing that no one here has actually touched on though is the placebo effect. That has been proven many times to be a very effective treatment for a lot of conditions (touching on your 50%mental LDC) and it can make a major part of the success of both for adherents to natural and conventional medicine... Don't forget though, it works both ways, if you believe it will help then it can, but similarly, if you believe it won't help then the treatment (whether scientifically proven or not) is less likely to work.

[Ian 1,129]

I have no doubt that medical science has its own issues (lobbying, dodgy trials, understating uncertainty in results etc.), but the fact remains that if natural remedies were as effective as people like to claim, then why would "modern medicine" be required in the first place?!

I don't disagree with those who suggest there are systematic problems with our health service and attitudes towards "pills"; look at how anti-depressants are so commonly prescribed to adults (and increasingly, children), but casting aspersions on things like chemotherapy and vaccination is just dangerous.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Ooo eee ooo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang....

Don't let the Aborigines read this Double N. If they point the bone we could end up dropping down the table.

[Van wink 2,994]

49 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

Lakey, whilst I kind of agree with most of what you say, homeopathy helps no one and through the practices of the people who push it is actively endangering people with serious but treatable conditions. You would be just as well eating polo mints from a medicine bottle as taking homeopathic remedies...

I take your point that alternative treatments can divert people from benefiting from traditional medicine which may have proven clinical benefits for their condition CM.

I would point out though that even though medical science and understanding is making rapid progress, as someone else I think said, the more you know the more you realise what you dont know. There are undoubtedly healing mechanisms within us which are not understood or even given clinical recognition, the power of the mind can be very influential in a successful  outcome, maybe belief in the power of alternative therapy is sufficient in certain circumstances for recovery.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

People laughed at acupuncture years ago but it works for many. And that is all that matters. Whatever works is best for the patient. And anything that avoids invasive surgery or spells of painful or uncomfortable treatment and the end result is cure or at least comfort, is OK in my book.

I have suffered from Chronic Tension Headaches for ten years. It is a permanent headache with varying levels of pain or discomfort and when it is bad it is reportedly 4 times worse than a bad migraine. And the side effects such as anger, depression etc aren't pleasant either.

I tried everything. From Botox injections in the head to chiropractice. Nothing worked but a drug has appeared that doesn't cure but has a margin of control.

I was sceptical of homeopathy but did try it and now would never say to anyone that it is a sham. But I would warn people to check with their GP first.