Flu

[cornish sam 944]

KG - so is it a drug or homeopathy? 

To be clear, I am not using homeopathy as a synonym for alternative/traditional medicine, but for the specific practice of using homeopathic dilutions to create a supposed treatment. To compare homeopathy to acupuncture is giving homeopathy credence it doesn't deserve. People often only turn to homeopathy as a last resort or because they have very strong beliefs against rational thought the scientific method, this has been proven to strengthen the placebo effect and multiple large scale studies have proven that homeopathy has no greater success (and in some cases worse) than would be expected from said effect. Natural/alternative medicine is something different in that it is provable to be at least marginally more successful than placebo even if we don't understand why or can't quantify it effectively due to the lack of control on purity/strength of active ingredients due to the natural sources they come from (e.g ginkgo or eccanacia). Homeopathic remedies on the other hand have NO active ingredients.

 

I fully agree with van wink in that there are healing mechanisms we don't understand, which is why I keep calling out the placebo effect. Humans have a fantastic capacity to heal and perform outside of what is believed to be scientifically possible, but usually don't, which is why we have faith in the scientific method which generally works in probabilities as Matt juler spelt out quite well.

[lappinitup 629]

6 hours ago, lake district canary said:

 I had a problem with my neck a few years ago.....

 

A pain in the neck? You Lakey? Why does that not surprise me? 🤪😀

[Nuff Said 5,089]

7 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I would have to add  a caveat to your first statement - "Modern science is the only thing that is proven correct".....to scientists.

Proof that something works is in the eye of the beholder, not just the science or the scientists.  Science provides a fantastic way for remedies and cures to be found and implemeneted for all sorts of illnesses and conditions - but it does not have a monopoly on finding cures.

 

 

OK Lakey, I'll bite. Care to expand on "Proof that something works is in the eye of the beholder, not just the science or the scientists." Surely the concept of proof and how it works is unarguable? Unless you're saying that some people believe that if something works for them they consider it proven. In which case there's not much point discussing this further with you.

[lake district canary 4,531]

17 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

OK Lakey, I'll bite. Care to expand on "Proof that something works is in the eye of the beholder, not just the science or the scientists." Surely the concept of proof and how it works is unarguable? Unless you're saying that some people believe that if something works for them they consider it proven. In which case there's not much point discussing this further with you.

All I meant by it was that if it works it works and it doesn't matter if it is proven by science or not.  If something that is unproven by science works for someone, they did not need to have it proved - they have proved it for themselves. 

It's down to personal choice in the end, but being cured of something can be to do with more than someone being prepared to just accept what science has to offer.  I would never tell anyone not to accept the scientifically proven solutions - only to make sure that there aren't alternatives that might help them too, before going down the scientifically proven route.  It's a fascinating world out there and science does not have all the answers.

 

[Nuff Said 5,089]

1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

All I meant by it was that if it works it works and it doesn't matter if it is proven by science or not.  If something that is unproven by science works for someone, they did not need to have it proved - they have proved it for themselves. 

It's down to personal choice in the end, but being cured of something can be to do with more than someone being prepared to just accept what science has to offer.  I would never tell anyone not to accept the scientifically proven solutions - only to make sure that there aren't alternatives that might help them too, before going down the scientifically proven route.  It's a fascinating world out there and science does not have all the answers.

 

“only to make sure that there aren't alternatives that might help them too, before going down the scientifically proven route” - really? Before??? You think it safer to take something from a snake oil salesman than from a doctor? 

[lake district canary 4,531]

12 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

“only to make sure that there aren't alternatives that might help them too, before going down the scientifically proven route” - really? Before??? You think it safer to take something from a snake oil salesman than from a doctor? 

In some cases - not all - it's perfectly ok to consider alternatives if there are some available. The beauty of the internet and social media is that there are plenty of alternatives shared about many situations and conditions - the trick is identifying which ones are possibly going to be helpful as opposed to those that are fake or just after your money. 

Someone mentioned acupuncture earlier - not proven for many years by science - but obviously worked and now is accepted because science now says it's ok - but it didn't need science to back it up for many people to benefit from it for thousands of years.....like I said, if it works, it works.

Edited December 18, 2018 by lake district canary

[Bill 1,788]

24 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

“only to make sure that there aren't alternatives that might help them too, before going down the scientifically proven route” - really? Before??? You think it safer to take something from a snake oil salesman than from a doctor? 

The political world is full of such folk

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

KG - so is it a drug or homeopathy? 

I have to say the real way I control the pain is homeopathy. The drug controls bit of the pain but its real emphasis is to control my mood.

My homeopathic remedy is sensory. I have a few things in a box, nothing to anyone else except junk but to me they have a deep meaning. One thing is a yellow and green Norwich badge of sorts that my grandaughter made out of some plastic beads. When things get a bit much I turn to these things and they have a remarkable remedial effect on my senses and I control the pain enough to function as normal as possible.

I think science has a job to do with the mind and healing as much as drugs or surgery do.

 

[Capt. Pants 4,200]

Farke named and unchanged side and only one change to the bench so they couldn't have been that bad! More to the point it's disappointing none of the fringe players such as Marshall were deemed good enough to start. Plus we actually finished the game stronger so I don't quite understand Farke's comments.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Farke named and unchanged side and only one change to the bench so they couldn't have been that bad! More to the point it's disappointing none of the fringe players such as Marshall were deemed good enough to start. Plus we actually finished the game stronger so I don't quite understand Farke's comments.

But some of the sufferers were the ones to come off. Cantwell looked a shadow of himself and I noticed in the second half he went to ground and took an eternity to get up again.

Playing away to a team on their own little run after some poor results on a damp pitch meant we only had to be 10% worse and things were levelled up. And I believe the absence of Klose has had as big a reason for our slight dip in attacking as Leitner. His ability to carry, not kick or pass, the ball into our opponents half has changed our style so much for the better and allows us to play further up the pitch.

[cornish sam 944]

I am sorry to hear that it's that bad, but I am glad you have found a way to manage it. You're not actually talking about homeopathy though KG. Homeopathy is a very specific pseudoscience, this may class as alternative medicine, but to me just sounds like a sensible thing to have to help you see past your problem and cope.

 

Lakey, I take back some of my support of your comments (which I know will hurt you deeply), I misunderstood your meaning based on the last couple of posts... If you have a medical problem you should always seek professional help before scouring the internet and self diagnosing, yes, look at alternatives when you actually know what you are looking for and what the 'conventional' options are. Drs are not infallible, but they are extensively trained, not just in specific symptoms and treatments, but also in how to diagnose and reaserch conditions. Things like acupuncture, whilst not fully explainable have been accepted because empirically it can be shown to be effective, the internet and social media, however, can be a very dangerous place to go looking for treatments, it is full of people selling miracles to desperate people and trying to use the 1 person in 5000 that happened to get better as evidence that something works.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

On 17/12/2018 at 13:58, Nuff Said said:

So much to go at here...

1. Define natural. Aspirin is derived from willow bark, is that a "natural" remedy?
2. Because a treatment worked for you, or your wife or even both of you, does that mean it is proven? No. Do you know that you would have caught flu without it? No. Correlation is not causation.
3. "what has been around for so long is now labelled 'alternative' as opposed to the medical breakthroughs that have come about in the last 100 years or so" - I'm not so sure. I would suggest that it's the stuff that is tested and that fails those tests which is labelled 'alternative'.
4. Please, please, please don't throw aspersions on vaccination, unless you have some very concrete evidence - just listing some potentially iffy ingredients in no way invalidates the enormous, in fact enormously enormous improvements in public health they have delivered. Look at the damage Andrew Wakefield caused and the recent growth in diseases that were previously considered beaten like mumps and measles. People who spread unjustified rumours about vaccination need to understand their responsibility for the damage it causes to children and think carefully before doing it.
5. I can't see the link between your overriding point about taking personal responsibility for one's own health and alternative medicine. Yes, absolutely educate and treat yourself before calling on our creaking health service, but it's irrelevant whether the treatment you choose is "natural" or not, what matters is if it's effective.

Run out of time, but I could go on and on ...

 

Could not agree more

[lake district canary 4,531]

1 hour ago, cornish sam said:

I am sorry to hear that it's that bad, but I am glad you have found a way to manage it. You're not actually talking about homeopathy though KG. Homeopathy is a very specific pseudoscience, this may class as alternative medicine, but to me just sounds like a sensible thing to have to help you see past your problem and cope.

 

Lakey, I take back some of my support of your comments (which I know will hurt you deeply), I misunderstood your meaning based on the last couple of posts... If you have a medical problem you should always seek professional help before scouring the internet and self diagnosing, yes, look at alternatives when you actually know what you are looking for and what the 'conventional' options are. Drs are not infallible, but they are extensively trained, not just in specific symptoms and treatments, but also in how to diagnose and reaserch conditions. Things like acupuncture, whilst not fully explainable have been accepted because empirically it can be shown to be effective, the internet and social media, however, can be a very dangerous place to go looking for treatments, it is full of people selling miracles to desperate people and trying to use the 1 person in 5000 that happened to get better as evidence that something works.

Not sure why you disagree, because I agree with everything you put. I maybe didn't make myself clear, but I certainly agree you get a proper diagnosis and professional advice...my point is that there are sometimes options that may work better than the prescribed, scientifically proven ones that are on offer from the medical profession....I stress "sometimes"  and that every caution should be taken when considering options.  When it comes to vaccinations, there are not any obvious alternatives. 

[Barbe bleu 815]

Sounds like people have some knowledge of this. Please check my understanding if you do. This is a really important topic and i do think it's important to be knowledgeable in it.

Immunisation often fails to have any or any meaningful effect on a given individual.  ( ive had a BCG but it probably won't stop TB if I'm unlucky enough to be in effective contact with a sufferer ) The principle aim of immunisation campaigns is to ensure that enough people are immune that, taken as an  average, sufferers will pass the disease onto to less than one more person. In time the disease will leave the population as the number of sufferers is constantly halving.

This is why guess work and supposition about vaccines is so dangerous.  As soon as people stop getting their kids immunized the spread rate goes up and everyone is at risk.  And it doesn't matter if jabs have been taken or not, deadly diseases can hit anyone and stay in a population.

 

[Gaz_in_NZ 9]

I'd just like to say how great it was to read this debate/discussion.

Well done guys, I wish people could discuss football matters as you have regarding flu...... but then it's not such a life or death scenario is it? Over to you Bill Shankly.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Gaz_in_NZ
hit wrong button

[splendidrush 700]

Gaz,I'm in NZ too. Where are you?

[Van wink 2,994]

On 17/12/2018 at 13:58, Nuff Said said:

So much to go at here...

1. Define natural. Aspirin is derived from willow bark, is that a "natural" remedy?
2. Because a treatment worked for you, or your wife or even both of you, does that mean it is proven? No. Do you know that you would have caught flu without it? No. Correlation is not causation.
3. "what has been around for so long is now labelled 'alternative' as opposed to the medical breakthroughs that have come about in the last 100 years or so" - I'm not so sure. I would suggest that it's the stuff that is tested and that fails those tests which is labelled 'alternative'.
4. Please, please, please don't throw aspersions on vaccination, unless you have some very concrete evidence - just listing some potentially iffy ingredients in no way invalidates the enormous, in fact enormously enormous improvements in public health they have delivered. Look at the damage Andrew Wakefield caused and the recent growth in diseases that were previously considered beaten like mumps and measles. People who spread unjustified rumours about vaccination need to understand their responsibility for the damage it causes to children and think carefully before doing it.
5. I can't see the link between your overriding point about taking personal responsibility for one's own health and alternative medicine. Yes, absolutely educate and treat yourself before calling on our creaking health service, but it's irrelevant whether the treatment you choose is "natural" or not, what matters is if it's effective.

Run out of time, but I could go on and on ...

Spot on👍

[The Bristol Nest 513]

26 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Spot on👍

Agreed. Homeopathy is a fraudulent practise.

Wakefield is a fraudulent individual.

Edited December 21, 2018 by The Bristol Nest

[Ray 111]

12 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Sounds like people have some knowledge of this. Please check my understanding if you do. This is a really important topic and i do think it's important to be knowledgeable in it.

Immunisation often fails to have any or any meaningful effect on a given individual.  ( ive had a BCG but it probably won't stop TB if I'm unlucky enough to be in effective contact with a sufferer ) The principle aim of immunisation campaigns is to ensure that enough people are immune that, taken as an  average, sufferers will pass the disease onto to less than one more person. In time the disease will leave the population as the number of sufferers is constantly halving.

This is why guess work and supposition about vaccines is so dangerous.  As soon as people stop getting their kids immunized the spread rate goes up and everyone is at risk.  And it doesn't matter if jabs have been taken or not, deadly diseases can hit anyone and stay in a population.

 

Barbe blue,

As far as I am aware, vaccinations do not guarantee you will not become infected, and suffer from, whatever you have been vaccinated against, nor (in most cases) does it mean you will not be a carrier.  That said, if you are vaccinated and are a carrier but do not develop the disease you are less likely to pass on the disease, especially if it is a disease passed on via coughing, sneezing, etc. as you wont be coughing/sneezing, or not as much as someone who has full blown symptoms anyway.

I think some on here may believe I am against vaccinations, I am not and have never said I am, I am however in favour of prevention rather than cure and I prefer to do this naturally.  I am also an advocate of the knowledge is power school of thought, which obviously allows me to make informed decisions, rather than putting my entire trust in one form, or another, of health care and its providers.  My goal is to ward off viruses, etc. by keeping a strong immune system naturally, which has certainly been effective for me over the years and consequently I am just as less likely to pass on a virus, etc. as someone who has had a vaccination.

I gave an example in my first post on this topic of a player who followed the same route, it may mean we are all incredibly lucky when it comes to catching viruses, it may not of course, but he, my wife and I have certainly suffered far less than others around us over the years.  Scientific proof, no, but proof enough for me.  I also am a firm believer of the part the mind plays, if I meet someone suffering my mantra is, "I'll be safe as my immune system will deal with this" others may say, "That means I'm going to go down with it" and I know the brain is hard wired to prove you right, it doesn't always do so but I would rather it working for me than against me.

[cornish sam 944]

12 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Sounds like people have some knowledge of this. Please check my understanding if you do. This is a really important topic and i do think it's important to be knowledgeable in it.

Immunisation often fails to have any or any meaningful effect on a given individual.  ( ive had a BCG but it probably won't stop TB if I'm unlucky enough to be in effective contact with a sufferer ) The principle aim of immunisation campaigns is to ensure that enough people are immune that, taken as an  average, sufferers will pass the disease onto to less than one more person. In time the disease will leave the population as the number of sufferers is constantly halving.

This is why guess work and supposition about vaccines is so dangerous.  As soon as people stop getting their kids immunized the spread rate goes up and everyone is at risk.  And it doesn't matter if jabs have been taken or not, deadly diseases can hit anyone and stay in a population.

 

Matt juler sounds like he is in a better position to answer this, but, I'll have a go anyway...

Basically, yes, though I would disagree with the use of 'often'. Common vaccines for single diseases are generally pretty effective, so having had the BCG it would be unlikely that you would get tb by being in contact with a sufferer, however, there is still a chance through either your immune system failing or the sufferer having a strain that has got some resistance to the antigen. This is true for natural developed immunity too though, for example I had chicken pox twice as a kid.

Where things like the flu vaccine differ is that there are a shed load of influenza pathogens, most of which require different antigens to combat them. The flu jab (as Matt says) is only designed to cover the strains predicted to be the main ones in that region that year, but the vaccines against those strains are also less effective than the tb vaccine (for example) because they mutate a lot quicker so are more likely to develop a level of resistance. The rate of mutation is also increased by the lack of universal coverage of the vaccine, far more carriers means far more opportunity for mutation...

[cornish sam 944]

Ray - if you are immune to something then that means that your immune system destroys/defeats the underlying cause of the virus, it doesn't mean that you just don't display symptoms. You may still have little pockets of infection but clinically speaking they are generally insignificant. If you are an asymptomatic carrier then that is a different thing.

I agree with you (as do most of the medical profession) that prevention is better than cure. Vaccinations/immunisations are one path towards prevention in that they normally work by enabling your immune system to fight off the infection. You can (and should) also strengthen your immune system through other means, which it sounds like is what you/your wife are doing. Even simple things like getting enough sleep are great at helping your immune system perform to its potential. BUT, it shouldn't be an either/or approach. If you have been immunised against everything but then eat carp and don't look after yourself you will probably still become ill, because even though your immune system may know how to beat something, it can't because it's not strong enough.

Edited December 21, 2018 by cornish sam
Spelling

[Ray 111]

Hi Cornish Sam,

I agree with all you have said.  Maybe I worded slightly incorrectly?.

[cornish sam 944]

10 minutes ago, Ray said:

Hi Cornish Sam,

I agree with all you have said.  Maybe I worded slightly incorrectly?.

Hi ray, I was just clarifying your opening paragraph about being a carrier post immunisation, the rest was general agreement.

[Nuff Said 5,089]

Just to reinforce the point about the importance of encouraging everyone to have vaccinations:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/21/measles-cases-at-highest-for-20-years-in-europe-as-anti-vaccine-movement-grows