The Tony Martin programme

[River End Canary 18]

The more I am watching the more it is clear he was the victim 

he should be given the freedom of the city.

we shoot burglars we shoot burglars

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

You are just very wrong.  He shot someone in the back, and killed them, from outside the house when they were running away - that is not 'defending your property'. 

[Bill 1,788]

read the book

he was not found guilty by a Norfolk jury for nothing

he chanced his arm and went for a murder charge thinking he would get off

but the evidence was so obvious that he was found guilty, and no I have NO sympathy with those two robbers but this was premeditated murder, no more no less

 

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

It is certainly one of those cases you need to look beyond the headlines and media coverage - this definitely was not a case like the guy earlier this year.

[River End Canary 18]

Listening and to the interview he really was stitched up by the Police

 

[Bill 1,788]

Anyone reading the book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Right-Kill-Tony-Martins-Story/dp/1903906369

will wonder how Martin had the bare faced cheek to let this go to court. His lies were so childlike ie where he claimed to have been when he fired the shot, which would have meant the gun firing round two corners !

Why did he not simply 'set the dogs on them ' ?

If was little more than a premeditated trap so as to be able to kill - nothing to do with protecting property.

The real question which is never asked is why such a clearly unhinged bloke with previous was allowed to have guns.

For my part I would have let the dogs loose, not have them locked up. The first sight of intruders I would have fired a warning shot with the 'advice' that if they made on move forward I would fire at them. What I would not do is rig my house up as a trap, leave windows unlocked then lie in wait, creep on on them and fire at close range as they tried to get out of the house.

It was those latter acts that convicted him.

[Bill 1,788]

2 minutes ago, River End Canary said:

Listening and to the interview he really was stitched up by the Police

 

Yes, it was the naughty police who told him to lie to the court, even his own solicitor. It was the naughty police who provided forensic evidence that proved he was lying and how he really killed the bloke .

What next ?

Harold Shipman was framed

Peter Sutcliffe was a victim of a ME TOO witch hunt.

Harry Robert... it was only a bit of 'bantz' that got out of hand.

I can only hope for your sake that you never are tried by a jury with someone like you on it

 

[Felixfan 53]

I never want to be associated with that moronic chant. It does our club and supporters no favours.

[93vintage 16]

1 hour ago, Bill said:

but the evidence was so obvious that he was found guilty, and no I have NO sympathy with those two robbers but this was premeditated murder, no more no less

He was found guilty of manslaughter, not murder.

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

Actually, he was found guilty of murder by the jury.  It was reduced on appeal to manslaughter on the grounds that he's as bad as a box of frogs.  Which he most definitely is.

[Bill 1,788]

Nope he was convicted of murder.

I suspect he had hoped to be found not guilty so would escape justice.

Murder it was.

[93vintage 16]

My point was, you can't say it was premeditated murder if he was found guilty of manslaughter.

[Bill 1,788]

he wasn't

he was convicted of murder

look it up

[Chelm Canary 404]

1 hour ago, Bill said:

read the book

he was not found guilty by a Norfolk jury for nothing

he chanced his arm and went for a murder charge thinking he would get off

but the evidence was so obvious that he was found guilty, and no I have NO sympathy with those two robbers but this was premeditated murder, no more no less

 

Premeditated murder? You must be joking. 

And no more, no less? I see you've doubled down on it.

Do you understand that for it to be premeditated, he would have had to arrange for them to arrive on his land and then shoot one of them, with him having orchestrated the entire scenario.

Don't throw daft comments around unless you know what you're talking about. 

[Rivvo 257]

That’s not really correct, he wouldn’t have to arrange anything, just decide that the next time someone burgles him he’s going to shoot them. Premeditation shouldn’t be confused with pre planning, premeditation can be decided seconds or minutes before the deed is done.

[Bill 1,788]

err on law I do

though I haven't the slightest idea what double down is

some sort of bedding, perhaps

and do look up what premeditated is, not the guff you have put up

[Chelm Canary 404]

3 minutes ago, Rivvo said:

That’s not really correct, he wouldn’t have to arrange anything, just decide that the next time someone burgles him he’s going to shoot them. Premeditation shouldn’t be confused with pre planning, premeditation can be decided seconds or minutes before the deed is done.

premeditate

/priːˈmɛdɪteɪt/

verb

past tense: premeditated; past participle: premeditated

1. think out or plan (an action, especially a crime) beforehand

[Bill 1,788]

4 minutes ago, Rivvo said:

That’s not really correct, he wouldn’t have to arrange anything, just decide that the next time someone burgles him he’s going to shoot them. Premeditation shouldn’t be confused with pre planning, premeditation can be decided seconds or minutes before the deed is done.

thank you

[Rivvo 257]

Beforehand- before an action or event.

the dictionary doesn’t say how long though, as I said it can be seconds or minutes.

[Bill 1,788]

2 minutes ago, Chelm Canary said:

premeditate

/priːˈmɛdɪteɪt/

verb

past tense: premeditated; past participle: premeditated

1. think out or plan (an action, especially a crime) beforehand

Obvious that you are not aware otherwise you would not have resorted to a dictionary.

What this thread will undoubtedly demonstrate is the enormous 'ignorance' that attaches to so much of our political and judicial system.

[Bill 1,788]

2 minutes ago, Rivvo said:

Beforehand- before an action or event.

the dictionary doesn’t say how long though, as I said it can be seconds or minutes.

Where the latin mens rea comes in - the guilty mind

With Tony Martin it was that.

His intent was to kill,as shown by the way the house was booby trapped and by hs following the victim around before shouting him iin the back as he tried to leave the house.

[Chelm Canary 404]

3 minutes ago, Rivvo said:

Beforehand- before an action or event.

the dictionary doesn’t say how long though, as I said it can be seconds or minutes.

Lol no. 

Premiditation isn't a response to something. I.e if they come to my land I'm going to kill them. 

Premiditation would be - I'll invite them to my land and shoot them. 

I know law. I studied law.

[Bill 1,788]

17 minutes ago, Chelm Canary said:

Lol no. 

Premiditation isn't a response to something. I.e if they come to my land I'm going to kill them. 

Premiditation would be - I'll invite them to my land and shoot them. 

I know law. I studied law.

no one has claimed it was

[93vintage 16]

27 minutes ago, Bill said:

he wasn't

he was convicted of murder

look it up

Maybe look up your own post, where you said "this was premeditated murder, no more no less".

It doesn't matter what the original verdict was, as the appeal verdict takes precedence. What you should have said was, "it was manslaughter, no more no less".

[Rivvo 257]

Premeditation - specific intent to commit a crime for some period of time, however short.

there is no requirement for him to invite people onto his land in order to shoot them to prove premeditation, obviously if he had done that then it would have demonstrated the premeditated intent to kill them.

[Bill 1,788]

14 minutes ago, 93vintage said:

Maybe look up your own post, where you said "this was premeditated murder, no more no less".

It doesn't matter what the original verdict was, as the appeal verdict takes precedence. What you should have said was, "it was manslaughter, no more no less".

now you are being silly, he was convicted or murder as you admit

over turning a verdict does not mean it did not happen

[93vintage 16]

2 minutes ago, Bill said:

now you are being silly, he was convicted or murder as you admit

over turning a verdict does not mean it did not happen

With your line of thought I suppose you could describe Ched Evans's actions as rape, given that he was originally convicted of this crime?

[Bill 1,788]

He was convicted of rape as you say

Tony Martin was convicted of murder

Nothing will change either of those events

[Crabbycanary3 994]

I have not seen the programme, and I have not seen all the evidence for this, so my questions are not intending to catch anyone on here, out.

 

Was the house booby trapped with 'life ending' possibilities?

Was Tony Martin given any empathy to his previous situations (i.e being burgled) and lack of police attention to these burglaries, or was he left on his own to deal with these (and was his mental health a factor on these?)

With pre-meditation is it clarified differently to  someone who is living their life at home, going about their daily lives and wanting to protect that minimum standard, to someone like a gunman going to a High School, for example, and killing non specific people? I am presuming the traps would not have affected, someone like the postman delivering to Martin's house? Were the traps designed for someone who was not invited onto Martin's land (in certain situations), and Martin felt he would not be as composed and clear cut in thinking as Bill seems to believe he himself would be in that situation (and these are a consequence of Martin's mental health and previous experiences)?

[city4eva 209]

can this be moved to non football