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OT - EU straw poll...

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Len said:

The Sunday Times is pro-Brexit. The Times is anti-Brexit.

The Sunday Times leaks a Brexit document which damages the Brexit cause.

What's happening here?

You're right but I think this is normal for the Sunday Times - they love a sensation and even if they haven't had time to check it out/put their own slant on it they'll print it anyway rather than risk someone else getting there first.

Edited by Creative Midfielder
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brexi-highlighter.png

uk-up-eu-down-e1566204926916.png?w=540&s

Remainers pointing to soft economic numbers in the UK should note that trade between euro-zone member states fell by 6.6% in June compared to the same period last year. That was the fastest such contraction since 2013. Exports from the eurozone to the rest of the world also dropped by 4.7%, the fastest rate since 2016. The EU can’t blame the fall in intra-bloc trade on China…

This is massively under-performing compared to exports of goods and services from the UK which grew 4.5% in June, the most since October 2016. Shipments of goods in particular surged 7.6%, driven by machinery & transport equipment. The euro looks over-valued…

 
 
 
 
I'll only believe this when it is announced on the BBC News 😀 
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1 minute ago, Herman said:

Early start for guido's sock puppet. 

Laid up after ruptured archilles op, Hermington...

Bear with me 😀

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Len said:

The Sunday Times is pro-Brexit. The Times is anti-Brexit.

The Sunday Times leaks a Brexit document which damages the Brexit cause.

What's happening here?

The Sunday Times didn't leak the document. It published a document leaked to it. And hardly surprisingly, since it is a good story, whatever its stance on Brexit. It is just straightforward journalism.

While I'm on, Len, if you want to know what Herman and City1st are saying about you and anti-semitism then you need not to block them. As it happens I regard your posts about globalism as idiotic but that doesn't make you anti-semitic.

In fact so idiotic I cannot believe anyone would take them seriously enough to wonder if they are sending an anti-semitic message. You may not regard that as a particularly uplifting  defence but it is the best you're likely to get.

Edited by PurpleCanary

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Surfer said:

It is obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that leaving the EU without a deal is going to cause massive disruption. And lots of paperwork too because that is how governments work. And that will raise costs and slow down business transactions for everyone. 

Why the pro-Bexiteers can’t own that fact and show why the (hopefully) short term  pain is worth the (hopefully) long term gain is very telling. 

They are either in denial, or they know full well the trade offs only benefit a very select few. Just spouting about the “ price of freedom” or the “slippery slope of socialism” is pathetic. 

They are also (again) American political tactics being imported to the UK - so more reason to worry that if Boris gets away with this BS there will be a whole lot more, and worse, BS to come. 

Short term pain is always worth long term gain.

Gains are many compared to any gains, if any, of staying in the EU:

Restoration of our fishing industry, shipbuilding, coastal towns and control of borders.

Saving around 20 Billion annually that would go to the EU that can be spent at home. We will be able to keep all VAT raised as well as any tariffs imposed and we will not be subject to EU fines for good GDP which has cost us billions in recent years and would cost us even more as the EU stagnates and we power ahead.

Freedom to do trade deals beneficial to us, especially with our main export trading partner, the USA.

Freedom to set our own internationally competitive tax rates which will drive our economy.

Freedom to subsidise industries in the national interest such as British Steel.

Reduce welfare that we currently pay to EU citizens via unemployment benefits, tax credits, child  support, NHS, housing benefit etc.

Reduce numbers of EU prisoners from current 4,000 or so, and stop potential criminals entering our country.

Reduce pressure on infrastructure with knock-on positive effects on pollution.

Freedom to keep the pound and consequent ability to set own interest rates to suit our own economic needs which long-term we would lose and potentially have serious issues  that Italy, Greece etc are facing.

Avoidance of EU army and having our youngsters called up to fight stupid wars.

...... and many more .....  LOL

 

 

 

 

Edited by paul moy

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3 minutes ago, paul moy said:

Freedom to do trade deals beneficial to us, especially with our main trading partner, the USA.

 

 

 

The EU is far and away the UK's largest trading partner.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:
1 hour ago, Len said:

The Sunday Times is pro-Brexit. The Times is anti-Brexit.

The Sunday Times leaks a Brexit document which damages the Brexit cause.

What's happening here?

The Sunday Times didn't leak the document. It published a document leaked to it. And hardly surprisingly, since it is a good story, whatever its stance on Brexit. It is just straightforward journalism.

While I'm on, Len, if you want to know what Herman and City1st are saying about you and anti-semitism then you need not to block them. As it happens I regard your posts about globalism as idiotic but that doesn't make you anti-semitic.

In fact so idiotic I cannot believe anyone would take them seriously enough to wonder if they are sending an anti-semitic message. You may not regard that as a particularly uplifting  defence but it is the best you're likely to get.

Well you might be pleased to know Purple, that I regard your beliefs-stated-as-fact in a similar way to those of Herman & Bill.

I think what's missing in general is a respect for other peoples' points of view, and the type of courtesy that you seem to lack.

Edited by Len
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10 minutes ago, paul moy said:

Freedom to subsidise industries in the national interest such as British Steel.

 

 

 

 

Britsh Steel is being sold to the Turkish military's pension fund.

 

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3 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

The EU is far and away the UK's largest trading partner.

We actually do more export trade with the USA than the EU.  We do import more from the EU but this can be corrected after Brexit as this is not a situation that is desirable.

From google:

"The U.S. exported $125.9 billion of goods and services to the UK, making it the UK's 2nd largest source of imports. The U.S. imported $110 billion in goods and services from the UK; the U.S. is by far the UK's largest export market."

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2 minutes ago, paul moy said:

We actually do more export trade with the USA than the EU.  We do import more from the EU but this can be corrected after Brexit as this is not a situation that is desirable.

From google:

"The U.S. exported $125.9 billion of goods and services to the UK, making it the UK's 2nd largest source of imports. The U.S. imported $110 billion in goods and services from the UK; the U.S. is by far the UK's largest export market."

So what you're saying is that Purple was correct and you were wrong. 😀

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1 minute ago, TCCANARY said:

So what you're saying is that Purple was correct and you were wrong. 😀

No, because it's a matter of interpretation.  The USA is our largest export partner, which is far more important than being our major import partner, the EU.  The EU is detrimental to our balance of payments and this pressures our exchange rate and that is why the EU need a free trade agreement with us more than us with them.   An FTA between us and the USA will be far more beneficial to us than an FTA with the EU.

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11 minutes ago, TCCANARY said:

Britsh Steel is being sold to the Turkish military's pension fund.

 

Yes, and we will be able to state subsidise it if necessary outside of the EU, which we are not allowed to do at the moment.

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6 minutes ago, paul moy said:

No, because it's a matter of interpretation.  The USA is our largest export partner, which is far more important than being our major import partner, the EU.  The EU is detrimental to our balance of payments and this pressures our exchange rate and that is why the EU need a free trade agreement with us more than us with them.   An FTA between us and the USA will be far more beneficial to us than an FTA with the EU.

So what you're saying is that Purple was correct and you were wrong. 😀

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13 minutes ago, paul moy said:

Short term pain is always worth long term gain.

Gains are many compared to any gains, if any, of staying in the EU:

Restoration of our fishing industry, shipbuilding, coastal towns and control of borders.

Nothing in Brexit to help this. Most of our fish is exported so Brexit damages the UK fishing industry, no more ships will be built, nothing in it for coastal towns and no increased control of borders. Indeed border control is likely to be reduced to keep up the throughput. Verdict: more ill-informed nonesense from @paul moy

Saving around 20 Billion annually that would go to the EU that can be spent at home. We will be able to keep all VAT raised as well as any tariffs imposed and we will not be subject to EU fines for good GDP which has cost us billions in recent years and would cost us even more as the EU stagnates and we power ahead.

Net figure is just higher than £6 billion actually and this will easily be spent on no-deal contingency planning and extra bureaucracy/new techmology at the borders. UK GDP fell this quarter so any powering ahead is unlikely wishful thinking with no substantive rationale. Verdict: epic fail from @paul moy

Freedom to do trade deals beneficial to us, especially with our main trading partner, the USA.

Any US trade deal will be benficial to the US, not the UK. UK farming will be decimated, sovereignity will be lost as trade becomes subject to US laws and the NHS will be carved up by US big Pharma. Verdict: disaster proposed by @paul moy

Freedom to set our own internationally competitive tax rates which will drive our economy.

Aha, now the truth is out, tax cuts for the rich paid for by the poor. Larger budget deficit, more cuts and more austerity.......is this what you Brexiteers voted for?

Freedom to subsidise industries in the national interest such as British Steel.

RWNJs are not going to stand for this, smacks of socialism

Reduce welfare that we currently pay to EU citizens via unemployment benefits, tax credits, child  support, NHS, housing benefit etc.

EU citizens contribute more than they take out, so welfare as a proportion will actually rise! Verdict: another epic fail from @paul moy

Reduce numbers of EU prisoners from current 4,000 or so, and stop potential criminals entering our country.

Neither will happen.......

Reduce pressure on infrastructure with knock-on positive effects on pollution.

Again, not happening.........

Freedom to keep the pound and consequent ability to set own interest rates to suit our own economic needs which long-term we would lose and potentially have serious issues  that Italy, Greece etc are facing.

Sorry, is this even in English?

Avoidance of EU army and having our youngsters called up to fight stupid wars.

Most of the stupid wars we have been involved in have been US led, and the EU took no part. Likely to increase as we become the 51st State....

...... and many more .....  LOL

Well as you haven't come up with anything that stands up LOL indeed. Still what can we expect from an old pensioner, failed banker, uneducated ex-computer contractor?

 

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30 minutes ago, TCCANARY said:

Britsh Steel is being sold to the Turkish military's pension fund.

 

Because under EU rules no member country can nationalise anything -- which, btw, renders your favourite Magic Grandpas plan of nationalising everything whilst remaining in the EU complete boll*cks.

By God you Remaniacs are thick.

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6 minutes ago, BigFish said:

 

Typical negative abusive rubbish from a remoaner who simply cannot accept democracy.

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Billy keeps shouting randomly at broccoli and cauliflowers, I think he has Florets.

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Just now, paul moy said:

Typical negative abusive rubbish from a remoaner who simply cannot accept democracy.

Well, they're going to have to learn how to 😀

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25 minutes ago, paul moy said:

The EU is detrimental to our balance of payments and this pressures our exchange rate and that is why the EU need a free trade agreement with us more than us with them. 

The EU is not detrimental to our balance of payments - the fact that we can't grow a large proportion of what we eat, that we have very little heavy industry or manufacturing capability any more is detrimental to our balance of payments!!!!

None of that is going to be made any better by a trade deal with the US.

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19 minutes ago, TCCANARY said:

So what you're saying is that Purple was correct and you were wrong. 😀

Again, no, because the USA is our largest export market.   The EU sending us the largest amount of imports is hardly a benefit, because it negatively affects our balance of payments and exchange rate. That will thankfully be reduced in the future not least because many people including myself are boycotting EU goods, and of course due to the US FTA it will also diminish.

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1 minute ago, Creative Midfielder said:

The EU is not detrimental to our balance of payments - the fact that we can't grow a large proportion of what we eat, that we have very little heavy industry or manufacturing capability any more is detrimental to our balance of payments!!!!

None of that is going to be made any better by a trade deal with the US.

You fool.  All imports are detrimental to our Balance of Payments, wherever they are from. Try studying economics.

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The truth about US, UK and EU goods trade

In 2018 the EU27 earned almost $175 BILLION dollars net from the US in goods trade

Yet the UK is the biggest buyer of US goods in the EU, and the US even made a profit

Brexit Facts4EU.Org has been researching the truth about the trade between the US and the EU, and the US trade with the EU when the UK will no longer be part of it.

The results might surprise readers. We think this information will also surprise many citizens of the US.

We researched official data from the US Census Bureau for 2018, as this is official information and it will appeal to our US readers.

Brexit Facts4EU.Org Summary

US goods trade with the UK versus with the EU27

  • There are 28 countries in the EU
  • Almost 21% of all US goods exported to the EU were bought by the UK
  • The EU market will be over 1/5th smaller when the UK leaves
  • The EU27 countries (minus UK) had a $174.2 BILLION trade surplus in goods with USA last year
  • The UK is the biggest customer for US goods - and the US even made a small profit on the trade
  • The same cannot be said for the trade the US does with the EU27 (EU minus the UK)

us_eu_trade%20deficit_2018_090819.jpg

us_uk_trade_2018_090819.jpg

One country out of the 28 countries in the EU – the United Kingdom – bought over 1/5th of all American products sold to the EU last year. One country out of 28. And that country is almost 21% of the market for US producers.

Another way of looking at this is to say that for the USA, the EU market will be 79% of its current size once the UK leaves.

us_eu_market_without_uk_2018_090819.jpg

The UK buys American and the US buys British

The other key aspect for the US is the trade balance. For many years the EU has sold far more to the US than vice versa. Last year the EU27 countries rejoiced in a trade surplus with the US of almost $175 BILLION dollars. That’s $175 billion dollars in just one year, and that has been typical.

Conversely, the US had a small positive trade balance in goods with the UK of $5.5 billion dollars. In other words, the UK and the US broadly trade with each other on an even basis when it comes to goods.

Yet the US trade deficit with the EU27 will be huge when the UK leaves the EU.

And what about defence (or “security” as the EU refers to it)?

On defence, the UK is the only EU country to meet both NATO minimum spending targets – the percentage of GDP to be spent on defence and the capital equipment budget. Five EU countries are not even members of NATO and contribute nothing at all. The EU's largest country - Germany - is still only contributing two-thirds of what it should be doing.

Observations

 

Not only are the EU27 earning huge sums from the trade with the USA, these EU countries are also failing to pay for their own defence, relying on the USA and to a lesser degree the UK to protect them.

It would not be an exaggeration to say that when it comes to defence the EU has been sucking from the US teat for decades. We have published detailed research on this many times over the past few years.

On the other hand, the US-UK trade in goods is healthy and broadly in balance. The UK is also paying its way in NATO, even though we would like to see even more investment.

Brexit will bring even more opportunities for a stronger trade relationship with the USA, as well as with Commonwealth partners across the globe.

[ Sources: US Census Bureau | NATO ] Politicians and journalists can contact us for details, as ever.

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2 minutes ago, paul moy said:

You fool.  All imports are detrimental to our Balance of Payments, wherever they are from. Try studying economics.

If these Remaniacs just tried thinking it'd be a start 😀

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4 minutes ago, Jools said:

If these Remaniacs just tried thinking it'd be a start 😀

Research Dunning-Kruger, Jools. I wouldn't be surprised if they researched you.

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Just now, canarydan23 said:

Research Dunning-Kruger, Jools. I wouldn't be surprised if they researched you.

Oh look it's Desperate Dan 😍

Three and a half years and I'm still waiting for answers to the following question: What are the tangible benefits of the UK remaining in the EU?

Do you have ANYTHING but tripe, supposition and desperation, Dan?

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7 minutes ago, Jools said:

 

Three and a half years and I'm still waiting for answers to the following question: What are the tangible benefits of the UK remaining in the EU?

 

The tangible benefits of staying in the EU are all those that the Leave campaign leaders lyingly promised the UK would be able to keep after Brexit.

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1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

The Sunday Times didn't leak the document. It published a document leaked to it. And hardly surprisingly, since it is a good story, whatever its stance on Brexit. It is just straightforward journalism.

While I'm on, Len, if you want to know what Herman and City1st are saying about you and anti-semitism then you need not to block them. As it happens I regard your posts about globalism as idiotic but that doesn't make you anti-semitic.

In fact so idiotic I cannot believe anyone would take them seriously enough to wonder if they are sending an anti-semitic message. You may not regard that as a particularly uplifting  defence but it is the best you're likely to get.

Nay, it isn't a good story at all, it's a year old Treasury briefing about 'No Deal' Brexit planning that showed penny-pinching mandarins at the Treasury encouraging departments to fund 'No Deal' planning through “internal reprioritisation”, despite £3 billion having already been set aside for no-deal planning in the last budget by a reluctant Hammond -- Since then Hammond has proved to have been active in preventing preparation for a 'No Deal' Brexit.

 

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17 minutes ago, paul moy said:

You fool.  All imports are detrimental to our Balance of Payments, wherever they are from. Try studying economics.

🤣 🤣 Paul, you truly are the idiot's idiot.

You obviously skipped the economics class where they explained that economically successful countries frequently import low cost raw materials, iron ore for example, which they process and manufacture into high value products, washing machines, cars, aircraft for example, which they then export at values which far outweigh the value of the import cost and therefore have a positive Balance of Payments - Germany for example.

Trouble is we do very little of this - we are the ones purchasing the high value products, not making them and Brexit isn't going to help us to change this one iota.

Suggest you stop wasting everybody's time on here and sign up for some economics night classes in the autumn  :classic_biggrin:

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11 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

The tangible benefits of staying in the EU are all those that the Leave campaign leaders lyingly promised the UK would be able to keep after Brexit.

No one voted for a deal and no one voted for a non-deal:

448598.jpg

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