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OT - EU straw poll...

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1 minute ago, kick it off said:

Traditional green issues are heavily intertwined with pro eu sentiment as almost all their policies are related to international cooperation. 

Please point me to one single Green Party policy that would remotely support your assertion of having leave voters? I would bet there is literally less than 5 total green voters who support brexit. It is the home of pro-eu support and has been for decades.

There might be people who don't have an opinion on the EU but vote Green on purely environmental issues. Doesn't change the numbers but as will all voting patterns in all elections it's a fallacy to say that everyone votes for a particular party for exactly the same reasons. I know plenty of students that believe Globalism and Capitalism such as the EU is bad for the planet but would vote Green on purely environmental grounds. 

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10 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

It is totally clear that neither remain or brexit won last night and this was a victory for no-one.  All it has done is stake out the battle lines again, that there are many people who want brexit and there are many people who want remain.  The tories and labour have been so useless that the people have spoken and drawn attention again to the dilemna we have in politics. 

No one wins, but tories and labour definitely look down and out.

 

I think this is near enough right. It shows that the people want Labour to get off the fence and that the tories need to split up, in my humble opinion.

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3 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Traditional green issues are heavily intertwined with pro eu sentiment as almost all their policies are related to international cooperation. 

Please point me to one single Green Party policy that would remotely support your assertion of having leave voters? I would bet there is literally less than 5 total green voters who support brexit. It is the home of pro-eu support and has been for decades.

Exactly this - I tried to explain this to Ron a couple of pages back but you have done it much more succinctly.  😀

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1 minute ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

There might be people who don't have an opinion on the EU but vote Green on purely environmental issues. Doesn't change the numbers but as will all voting patterns in all elections it's a fallacy to say that everyone votes for a particular party for exactly the same reasons. I know plenty of students that believe Globalism and Capitalism such as the EU is bad for the planet but would vote Green on purely environmental grounds. 

Ok by that logic there are people who voted brexit party last night despite having no perspective on brexit but did so based on the fact they hate the NHS and support insurance based healthcare because that’s what Farage has said he wants previously.

Ignore the totals and look at the swings. The swings were exclusively single issue voters such as me. The swings have brexit party up about 5% on UKIP last time. Lib Dem and Green swings are up over 17% on vote share.

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6 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

There might be people who don't have an opinion on the EU but vote Green on purely environmental issues.

There might be but its very unlikely as nearly all the environmental protections\improvements of recent years have come via the EU.

The Green (and others) have also been very explicit that the climate crisis must be tackled on an international basis, so you and Ron are completely clutching at straws if you think anybody voted Green last night were really Brexiteers at heart.

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1 minute ago, Creative Midfielder said:

There might be but its very unlikely as nearly all the environmental protections\improvements of recent years have come via the EU.

The Green (and others) have also been very explicit that the climate crisis must be tackled on an international basis, so you and Ron are completely clutching at straws if you think anybody voted Green last night were really Brexiteers at heart.

How do they feel about Germany's coal burning power stations?

 

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Really desperate clutching at straws. This was clearly going to be an unnofficial referendum from the start, where other policies would be playing second fiddle to a party's stance on Brexit. I know personally lifelong Labour voters that were voting Green purely for this reason, and ditto tory voters voting Libdem.

 

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1 minute ago, ron obvious said:

How do they feel about Germany's coal burning power stations?

 

I guess the fact that the Greens doubled their vote in Germany and are now the second party in the EU's biggest country and economy tells you all you need to know about that.........😀

And if you have looked at the EU results in general you will see that the pro-EU vote across the other 27 has risen there, as well as in the UK.

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1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

No nearer, Herman. I don't know how significant these results are for the future. It might just be the electorate getting its "vote against" rage (the kind of movement seen with Trump and other mad populists who in effect have no sane policies for anything but have tapped into  the inchoate anger of the dispossessed) out of its system, and politics will revert to normal from now on. I wouldn't put money on that happening. I think we are in for more of the same.

And there is the key question of whether there will be a referendum on Brexit and if so whether it will come before or after the next general election.

What I would put some money on is my previous prediction, that the next election will be won by at the very least by an anti-Tory coalition, if  - big "if" - Labour in the meantime has switched to being a pro-Remain party.

Now I must read Bagster's declamatory "factual" assessment of how things are apparently not going well with the EU project on the continent and tick off the ways in which it doesn't correspond to what I think is happening...😻

Erm it's called an opinion purple, I am sure I am allowed that even with your meritocracy, maybe not eh.

Marine lepen beats the Macron, hardly good news is it?

Centre left/ centre right power block is broken is it not? 

Macron against further enlargement and for tougher borders.

If you don't think this will have an effect, then you have spent too long in your cave!

Me I have had to pass the gilet jaunes everyday for months!!!

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15 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

The Green (and others) have also been very explicit that the climate crisis must be tackled on an international basis, so you and Ron are completely clutching at straws if you think anybody voted Green last night were really Brexiteers at heart.

Oh I don't think anyone who voted Green is a Brexiteers, I was merely suggesting that at least a percentage of Green voters did so without Brexit being the reason. 

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Really desperate clutching at straws. This was clearly going to be an unnofficial referendum from the start, where other policies would be playing second fiddle to a party's stance on Brexit. I know personally lifelong Labour voters that were voting Green purely for this reason, and ditto tory voters voting Libdem.

 

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My daughter voted for brexit and she voted green last night.

She works at a very famous English tea company where most people are remainers and she is head of the green team.

She had her head bitten off the other day and was told that if she cared so much about the environment, then she shouldn't be working for a multi national!!!

Remainers eh!! 

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

Amazing how losers keep making themselves the winners in their heads.

There are no winners and losers. All this election has done has proven yet again how split the country is

Edited by Fiery Zac
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Is that from the "it didn't really happen" news, Bagster?😂

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26 minutes ago, Bagster said:

Erm it's called an opinion purple, I am sure I am allowed that even with your meritocracy, maybe not eh.

Marine lepen beats the Macron, hardly good news is it?

Centre left/ centre right power block is broken is it not? 

Macron against further enlargement and for tougher borders.

If you don't think this will have an effect, then you have spent too long in your cave!

Me I have had to pass the gilet jaunes everyday for months!!!

It was just a bit of gentle ribbing to cheer you up on a Monday, Bagster! As to those gilets jaunes, do you wave your own at them👍 or try to run them down?🚘

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5 hours ago, Surfer said:

First off I don’t have Socialist friends, I have American friends of all political views. We can agree to disagree and live our lives according to our own values without any issues between us. 

Regarding AOC, she is whip smart, and it’s no wonder RWNJ’s hate her, because she shows them up every time they have to sit in front of House committee she’s on. So they attack her.

Regarding your cauliflower story, if you read it she didn’t say she didn’t like cauliflower, she said various communities would want to grow what was familiar to them. So a one size fits all solution - for example “grow cauliflowers” - was not helping to engage those communities. 

Of course you either know that and choose to act dumb, or you are too dumb to understand.

Don't be so butt hurt, Soy Boy. AOC alluded to the notion that somehow growing cauliflowers was racist. These are her words. She is a dumb Socialist. 

She went on to add that growing cauliflower in such gardens is a “colonial approach” and the reason communities of color oppose environmentalist movements

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What the European Election results show is that nothing has really changed, there are no winners or losers, just a country split down the middle. Whether you are a Leaver or Remainer the sad truth is that this country is divided. The Brexit Party polled about 5M votes, which is 1M less than the number that signed the petition to revoke Article 50. Prior to the EU Referendum. Farage was on record as saying that if the result was a narrow majority to remain in the EU then the fight to leave would not be over (in other words he would not accept the democratic vote and the will of the people, presumably meaning UKIP would have campaigned for a second referendum). Given that it is clear that the split between those that want to leave the EU and those that wish to stay in the EU is extremely narrow it cannot be a surprise (using the Farage principle) that the fight to remain in the EU will continue. I find it strange that anybody can say that a vote for the Lib Dems, Green Party and SNP etc is anything other than an anti Brexit vote, I base this on the way the EU elections work in terms of seats allocated, there was a general acceptance that the Brexit Party would do well, so rather than vote Conservative or Labour (because the Conservatives are split between Leavers and Remainers and nobody really knows what the Labour position is,) voters who wanted to remain in the EU voted tactically for Lib Dem, Green etc to ensure their area at least got an MEP from parties that have declared their pro EU, and so it has transpired..........

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2 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

Newly-formed Change UK has not won any seats, while the Newly-formed The Brexit Party has received the highest share of the vote in nine of the 10 regions - with 32% overall

Indeed. If you really want to understand the result of the EU election you need to look at the two new parties that have emerged, both around the same time and both single-issue parties and compare their results. 

Pro-remain got stuffed and have been an embarrassment since their formation. At this point in time they are probably considering folding up and merging into the LibDems, so that

MPs like Anna Soubrey can cling onto their seats. 

Their closest rivals, the Brexit Party, has made political history by winning an election a mere five weeks after formation. That result is stupendous and has been matched in countries right across the EU. 

It's pretty clear that the EU is a busted flush and won't survive past another election. The political and economic fallout of the inevitable breakup of the EU means we have to keep our distance to make sure we don't get dragged down by that sinking shipwreck. 

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2 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Interesting times.

I've been slating the libdems ever since they took their campaigning for the EU stance, yet that policy - which seemed barmy at the time in the face of the referendum result, has allowed them a lifeline, late in the day.  Labour and Tory party have been so poor that with a brexit party pulling in one direction, we have seen the rise of the remain vote pulling in the other, leaving the labour and tories in no mans land.

There is no doubt that the remain vote is going to get stronger as a result of this - but the Greens and Libdems will HAVE to join forces if they want to challenge the brexit party at the next general election, which now can't come soon enough for me.

It must be totally obvious to everyone that parliament as it is will not be able to get behind a no deal vote, ever, so even if an arch brexiteer gets in as pm, they will still have the same problem as May.  And even if labour sort themselves out and decide one way or the other whether to campaign for remain or leave, they will alienate half their voters - and yet if they stay as they are they are as f*****d as the tories. 

So now we are faced with months of tory wrangling followed by more of the same as we had under May until we get a general election.  I always thought a general election would be the worst thing that could happen while brexit was being negotiated, but with the rise of the brexit party and a clear remain party emerging, bring it on.  I've been voting either libdem or greens for years, it now looks as if they are going to become a real force - but they do need to work together at the next general election or their vote will be split and that could let the brexit party in by default.

 

 

2 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Interesting times.

I've been slating the libdems ever since they took their campaigning for the EU stance, yet that policy - which seemed barmy at the time in the face of the referendum result, has allowed them a lifeline, late in the day.  Labour and Tory party have been so poor that with a brexit party pulling in one direction, we have seen the rise of the remain vote pulling in the other, leaving the labour and tories in no mans land.

There is no doubt that the remain vote is going to get stronger as a result of this - but the Greens and Libdems will HAVE to join forces if they want to challenge the brexit party at the next general election, which now can't come soon enough for me.

It must be totally obvious to everyone that parliament as it is will not be able to get behind a no deal vote, ever, so even if an arch brexiteer gets in as pm, they will still have the same problem as May.  And even if labour sort themselves out and decide one way or the other whether to campaign for remain or leave, they will alienate half their voters - and yet if they stay as they are they are as f*****d as the tories. 

So now we are faced with months of tory wrangling followed by more of the same as we had under May until we get a general election.  I always thought a general election would be the worst thing that could happen while brexit was being negotiated, but with the rise of the brexit party and a clear remain party emerging, bring it on.  I've been voting either libdem or greens for years, it now looks as if they are going to become a real force - but they do need to work together at the next general election or their vote will be split and that could let the brexit party in by default.

 

Another post from LDC which complete Ely misunderstands what is going on 

This is not the rise of the remain and they are not getting stronger, as you claim.

But neither is it the rise of leave. 

It's all about vote-switching and how votes have moved from the two traditional parties to the fringe parties, with one eye on what this would mean in a general election. 

So Greens and Libs benefited from Remainers from both Labour and Tory, as did the Brexit Party. 

I said on this thread before 2017 GE, why don't you Remainers vote LibDem and KIO replied he would vote Labour because the election was about more than one policy. I suspect in the EU election many voted for Greens and Libs because it was safe to do so. It doesn't affect the current standings in the HOC. If there was a GE tomorrow, I suspect many will return to their regular parties but I think more Labour would return than Tory. And if Labour ditched Corbyn and became pro-remain, they would win a GE handsomely. Labours problem is the membership and leadership is predominantly momentum and therefore pro-Corbyn

The Tories on the other hand are in big trouble. There is deep anger and feelings of betrayal amongst voters and in a GE are more likely to stay with the Brexit Party. A lot depends on who they vote as leader. Steve Baker might entice a few more back but the rest mainly are damaged goods. 

At least the EU might provide some entertainment until October but within the country everything is still up for grabs by anybody. 

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15 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

Slightly off topic but what an odious little sh*t Owen Jones is.

 

Yes indeed, but he was right about May. 

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59 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

It was just a bit of gentle ribbing to cheer you up on a Monday, Bagster! As to those gilets jaunes, do you wave your own at them👍 or try to run them down?🚘

Oh as long as it was a gentle ribbing and not **** then that's ok 🙂

As for the gilet jaunes,  it really depends on my mood. You know their grievances are so wide that I really can't make up my mind.

its all a little confusing, a bit like brexit you're either for against but the reasons why are really wide!! 

 

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

Is that from the "it didn't really happen" news, Bagster?😂

Nope read back I said that all my children voted for the greens pages back.

My son voted green at the last election, also said that I have voted green in the past. It's all on here, if you had any sort of memory you would probably know that.

But then again you are a bear with very little brains and a pantwetting habit 😉

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17 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

For those who want to know how the various parties work together in the EU Parliament & want a fair and balanced view of the elections throughout Europe this is an interesting read.

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/european-elections-results-intl/index.html

 

And this from Katya Adler is also good

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48420024

 

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Interesting to dip into this thread today, both ‘sides’ (and Remainers in particular) finding methods of interpreting the results in ways which favour or support their own positions. However, given the low turnout of 37% compared to the 72% seen in the 2016 referendum, no clear conclusions can be made apart from one – support for a party wanting to leave the EU continues to grow solidly. UKIP gained 16% of the vote and 13 seats in 2010, 26.6% and 24 seats in 2014 and the Brexit Party (from nowhere) achieved c33% of the vote and 29 seats in 2019. By any standard, that sustained and substantial upward trend  is remarkable.

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Is that from the "it didn't really happen" news, Bagster?😂

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32 minutes ago, Bagster said:

Oh as long as it was a gentle ribbing and not **** then that's ok 🙂

As for the gilet jaunes,  it really depends on my mood. You know their grievances are so wide that I really can't make up my mind.

its all a little confusing, a bit like brexit you're either for against but the reasons why are really wide!! 

 

To be serious, it is not just that their grievances are wide, but that they are often contradictory - lower taxes and more money on social services! How, in the real world, would that work? Some even want national service🇫🇷⚔️💂‍♂️ brought back...

They are a part of what I was talking about more generally and not just in France -  a kind of quite understandable rage against, just against, without having a thought-out plan to solve the problems.

And some of this is focused against the EU. But, even bearing  in mind what narrowly happened in France, and what happened in the UK, overall the pro-EU parties have held their ground against the Eurosceptic parties. The results do not support the dearly wished-for hope of some here that the EU is collapsing.

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The Tories and Labour have a great deal to worry about.

The Brexit Party isn’t going to go away until a “proper” Brexit has been delivered and - unfortunately for the main parties - they don’t get to choose what constitutes a proper Brexit.

All the time people feel betrayed by the establishment parties, the Brexit Party will be there, eating away at their core votes.

This has been a great night for democracy in the UK.

 

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1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

Indeed. If you really want to understand the result of the EU election you need to look at the two new parties that have emerged, both around the same time and both single-issue parties and compare their results. 

Pro-remain got stuffed and have been an embarrassment since their formation. At this point in time they are probably considering folding up and merging into the LibDems, so that

MPs like Anna Soubrey can cling onto their seats. 

Their closest rivals, the Brexit Party, has made political history by winning an election a mere five weeks after formation. That result is stupendous and has been matched in countries right across the EU. 

It's pretty clear that the EU is a busted flush and won't survive past another election. The political and economic fallout of the inevitable breakup of the EU means we have to keep our distance to make sure we don't get dragged down by that sinking shipwreck. 

It would be similar to Man City changing their name to Moss Side Blues , getting millions more in funding and a load of new players and then people being surprised that this "new" team have managed to win the league in their "first" season.

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