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OT - EU straw poll...

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2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Badger, I agree with most of that, and especially about Major. But if you were a Tory you would look at Cameron and say that his election record was played two, won two, or at worst played two, won one and drawn one. Granted in 2010 he had to sort of share power with the LibDems, but it meant the Tories were back in Downing Street. And - to his surprise - he won outright in 2015.

May's record is played one, lost one, in terms of unnecessarily losing her close but workable majority. And it was the loss of that majority, putting her in hock to the DUP and the Erg*, linked with the red line on a customs' union, that has made an admittedly difficult job well nigh impossible. Impossible to be sure, but without those self-inflicted errors she might by now have got a  deal through Parliament.

*An erg is an unstable area of windblown sand that can shift position dramatically and very quickly. An accidental piece of symbolism in the choosing of the name?

Yes electorally DC was more successful than TM. I regret the fact that modern politics is so much about appearance is about image nowadays and so little about substance (TB's legacy imo). Despite peoples' to the contrary - they have been taken in by style over substance - never better demonstrated than the scare over public finances, particularly in the context of private debt.

Cameron, the ex-PR man was perfect from this standpoint - you only have to look at his pronouncements to see this - he truly would say anything to get elected - truly an heir to Blair.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Badger said:

I think that most people have some sympathy for her and respect her dogged determination to do what she believes is right.

I'm afraid I don't have any sympathy for her whatsoever because whilst I agree she inherited a tricky situation, the problems and abuse she has received over the last couple of years are primarily of her own making - her incompetence, poor judgement and total refusal to listen to any opinions other than echoes of her own - Ivan Rodgers being a prime example, he explained to her very clearly two years ago why her approach to the Irish border, amongst other things, wouldn't work and here we are 14 days to go. Her approach has totally failed to work yet she persists unflinchingly in her stupidity.

Nor do I have any respect for her dogged determination because I don't believe for one moment that she is doing what she believes is right - for the country anyway. IMO she has been entirely motivated by a desire to keep her own job and perhaps even more so by the determination to avoid a split in the Tory party - in her mind I think two those objectives are opposite sides of the same coin. She probably assumes that what is good for the Tory party is de facto good for the country, but I don't believe she has ever given any serious thought to the best interests of the UK. It's not just about Brexit, as you said yourself with respect to her record at the Home Office - another very long saga of horrendous policies and decisions aimed at bolstering the Tory vote rather than working in the national interest.

Edited by Creative Midfielder
typos
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10 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I'm afraid I don't have any sympathy for her whatsoever because whilst I agree she inherited a tricky situation, the problems and abuse she has received over the last couple of years are primarily of her own making - her incompetence, poor judgement and total refusal to listen to any opinions other than echoes of her own - Ivan Rodgers being a prime example, he explained to her very clearly two years ago why her approach to the Irish border, amongst other things, wouldn't work and here we are 14 days to go. Her approach has totally failed to work yet she persists unflinchingly in her stupidity.

Nor do I have any respect for her dogged determination because I don't believe for one moment that she is doing what she believes is right - for the country anyway. IMO she has been entirely motivated by a desire to keep her own job and perhaps even more so by the determination to avoid a split in the Tory party - in her mind I think two those objectives are opposite sides of the same coin. She probably assumes that what is good for the Tory party is de facto good for the country, but I don't believe she has ever given any serious thought to the best interests of the UK. It's not just about Brexit, as you said yourself with respect to her record at the Home Office - another very long saga of horrendous policies and decisions aimed at bolstering the Tory vote rather than working in the national interest.

Agree with this

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16 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

image.png

oh dear, poor mouse brain

so sure in his delusion that the UK was leaving the EU on 29th March 2019 that he hoarded loads of my quotes saying it would not happen

ah well, back to him posting up lies once again

and the poor fellow hasn't quite grasped that the logo in the bottom right corner is the UK, not Britain

"they'll give us a good deal.......................baa baa"

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13 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Ivan Rodgers being a prime example, he explained to her very clearly two years ago why her approach to the Irish border, amongst other things, wouldn't work and here we are 14 days to go. Her approach has totally failed to work yet she persists unflinchingly in her stupidity.

A 'stupidity' that now looks certain to have Brexit delayed, with there being every probability that during that delay it will be ended.

Judge her actions by how brexit pans out - as I am certain that you and others would not have thought, a few months or even weeks ago, that the UK would still be in the EU after the 29th.

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2 minutes ago, Bill said:

A 'stupidity' that now looks certain to have Brexit delayed, with there being every probability that during that delay it will be ended.

Judge her actions by how brexit pans out - as I am certain that you and others would not have thought, a few months or even weeks ago, that the UK would still be in the EU after the 29th.

Do you mean probability or possibility there?

 

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Swindon, if you are just going to spread misinformation you've read on Fakebook it's probably best if you sodded off again. 

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Posted (edited)

probability

I was going to say certainty, but as dear old supermac would have

'events dear boy, events '

meaning that although the UK is at this stage through 'design'

there is 'many a slip 'twixt cup and lip'

Edited by Bill

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1 minute ago, Herman said:

Swindon, if you are just going to spread misinformation you've read on Fakebook it's probably best if you sodded off again. 

he does actually provide an insight into the sheer stupidity and ignorance of the brexiteer mind

one that will not only swallows, but happily regurgitate, any old nonsense as long as it appears to back their stupidity

ps don't quote this as he will have to read it 😉

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16 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

image.png

Of course @SwindonCanary you know these figures are just made up by a rather blatent propaganda organisation.

Change Britain cannot know these figures, until the EU/UK agree the terms of the extension.

They clearly have taken the gross contribution, ignored the rebate and EU to UK grants that would continue to make the splash, and the figure larger than it will in fact be

But of course these just leads us down the usual arguments when Brexiteers are unable to make a cogent argument based on facts. The real point here is that it is the Brexiteers/ERG/DUP who will be voting for this expenditure by voting down May's deal on Tuesday.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I'm afraid I don't have any sympathy for her whatsoever because whilst I agree she inherited a tricky situation, the problems and abuse she has received over the last couple of years are primarily of her own making - her incompetence, poor judgement and total refusal to listen to any opinions other than echoes of her own - Ivan Rodgers being a prime example, he explained to her very clearly two years ago why her approach to the Irish border, amongst other things, wouldn't work and here we are 14 days to go. Her approach has totally failed to work yet she persists unflinchingly in her stupidity.

Nor do I have any respect for her dogged determination because I don't believe for one moment that she is doing what she believes is right - for the country anyway. IMO she has been entirely motivated by a desire to keep her own job and perhaps even more so by the determination to avoid a split in the Tory party - in her mind I think two those objectives are opposite sides of the same coin. She probably assumes that what is good for the Tory party is de facto good for the country, but I don't believe she has ever given any serious thought to the best interests of the UK. It's not just about Brexit, as you said yourself with respect to her record at the Home Office - another very long saga of horrendous policies and decisions aimed at bolstering the Tory vote rather than working in the national interest.

Absolutely spot on, CM, except that you left out one key point - she didn't listen to how Donald Trump told her Brexit ought to be handled either...🤪

And her strategy for keeping the Tory party together has always been to appease the Erg. Never the soft Brexiters/Remainers. Because  - probably with good reason - she is much more scared ("frit" as Thatcher would have said) of the hard Brexit  nutcases and what they might do than she is of the oh so reasonable likes of Grieve and Rudd.

Edited by PurpleCanary

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2 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I'm afraid I don't have any sympathy for her whatsoever because whilst I agree she inherited a tricky situation, the problems and abuse she has received over the last couple of years are primarily of her own making - her incompetence, poor judgement and total refusal to listen to any opinions other than echoes of her own - Ivan Rodgers being a prime example, he explained to her very clearly two years ago why her approach to the Irish border, amongst other things, wouldn't work and here we are 14 days to go. Her approach has totally failed to work yet she persists unflinchingly in her stupidity.

Nor do I have any respect for her dogged determination because I don't believe for one moment that she is doing what she believes is right - for the country anyway. IMO she has been entirely motivated by a desire to keep her own job and perhaps even more so by the determination to avoid a split in the Tory party - in her mind I think two those objectives are opposite sides of the same coin. She probably assumes that what is good for the Tory party is de facto good for the country, but I don't believe she has ever given any serious thought to the best interests of the UK. It's not just about Brexit, as you said yourself with respect to her record at the Home Office - another very long saga of horrendous policies and decisions aimed at bolstering the Tory vote rather than working in the national interest.

I am very uncomfortable being the defender of TM - I did say,

4 hours ago, Badger said:

I find her intensely frustrating and think that some of her policies as Home secretary were abhorrent. I also think that she has made lots of mistakes in the Brexit process as well

However, I'm not sure that any Tory leader could deliver "a good deal."

1. What would a "good Brexit deal" look like?

2. Who do you think within the Tory party could have delivered it?

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From the Daily Mash 🤣

Apples

How’s that Brexit street party going?

IF you’re a Brexiter, don’t let Brexit being delayed and turning into a total shambles stop you having a fantastic street party. Here’s how to plan an unforgettable event.

Buy more booze

You probably already planned to have plenty to drink, but now you’ll need more to cheer up Leavers who aren’t getting their wonderful hard Brexit plunging the UK into ruin. A bottle of Victory gin each should do it.

Serve patriotic Brexit food

No massive change required here. Make sure there’s nothing foreign, obviously, so forget the vol-au-vents, canapes and quiche. There’s still a slight chance of a no-deal Brexit though, so get a taste of that by taking fresh fruit and vegetables off the menu too.

Put up decorations

There’s no better way to say “We’re pretending it’s 1945!” than with bunting and Union Jack flags, ideally not those with the EU safety mark. Forget about the fire risk – accidentally setting yourself on fire is the perfect Brexit metaphor.

Have violently anti-EU party games

Brexit clearly hasn’t been put on hold because it’s a terrible idea – it’s because of the BLOODY EU. Make pinatas of Michel Barnier and Donald Tusk to take out your frustrations on, or play ‘Pin the tail on the Guy Verhofstadt’s ****’.

Drugs

Not those sorts of drugs. Just bring along anything you’ve got in your bathroom and share them in case there are still medicine shortages.

Bring plenty of Dunkirk spirit and British pluck

Brexiters are always droning on about how they love adversity, so what could be more enjoyable than Brexit basically being cancelled?

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40 minutes ago, Badger said:

I am very uncomfortable being the defender of TM - I did say,

However, I'm not sure that any Tory leader could deliver "a good deal."

1. What would a "good Brexit deal" look like?

2. Who do you think within the Tory party could have delivered it?

Whoa Badger, that's a couple of really tricky questions for a Friday afternoon!

You're going to have to give me a bit of time to come up with a remotely coherent response to those  😀

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7 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Whoa Badger, that's a couple of really tricky questions for a Friday afternoon!

You're going to have to give me a bit of time to come up with a remotely coherent response to those  😀

 

50 minutes ago, Badger said:

I am very uncomfortable being the defender of TM - I did say,

However, I'm not sure that any Tory leader could deliver "a good deal."

1. What would a "good Brexit deal" look like?

2. Who do you think within the Tory party could have delivered it?

Well I have been down the pub so I am prepared to give it a go.......

1. The Norway +/Common Market 2.0 option, so membership of the EEA & EFTA. Not too disruptive for the economy, free from ever closer union & ECJ - result. Yes, we can't do our own trade deals but as these are worthless and unachievable no loss there (classic ERG unicorns). Yes freedom of movement continues, but you know what - this is for the good of the country. Yes, we contribute but this is probably less than the costs from May's or ideed no deal.

2. Pains me to say, Michael Gove

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9 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

For those thinking the figures are incorrect, wait and see what conditions the EU put on us to extend.

'thinking', good idea, you should give it a go.

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6 minutes ago, BigFish said:

 

Well I have been down the pub so I am prepared to give it a go.......

1. The Norway +/Common Market 2.0 option, so membership of the EEA & EFTA. Not too disruptive for the economy, free from ever closer union & ECJ - result. Yes, we can't do our own trade deals but as these are worthless and unachievable no loss there (classic ERG unicorns). Yes freedom of movement continues, but you know what - this is for the good of the country. Yes, we contribute but this is probably less than the costs from May's or ideed no deal.

2. Pains me to say, Michael Gove

The Norway +/Common Market 2.0 option, so membership of the EEA & EFTA. Not too disruptive for the economy, free from ever closer union & ECJ - result.👍

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

For those thinking the figures are incorrect, wait and see what conditions the EU put on us to extend.

Perhaps Better Britain should have taken your advice before making up this nonsense......(and of course yourself before reposting it)

Edited by BigFish
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40 minutes ago, BigFish said:

 

Well I have been down the pub so I am prepared to give it a go.......

1. The Norway +/Common Market 2.0 option, so membership of the EEA & EFTA. Not too disruptive for the economy, free from ever closer union & ECJ - result. Yes, we can't do our own trade deals but as these are worthless and unachievable no loss there (classic ERG unicorns). Yes freedom of movement continues, but you know what - this is for the good of the country. Yes, we contribute but this is probably less than the costs from May's or ideed no deal.

2. Pains me to say, Michael Gove

Well, I'd be happy with that (1.) too as a reasonable compromise, which probably best fits the mood of the nation. Would we free from the ECJ though? I thought it regulated the single market and decided upon disputes etc?

I'm not confident that Gove would have been able to deliver it though - I could be wrong, but I thought that the majority of Tories had succumbed to some sort of fundamentalist passion.

I haven't read "the deal", but am I wrong in thinking that as it is a WA not a final settlement, that we could end up with something like this (i.e. 1) anyway? 

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1 hour ago, Mr Apples said:

Bring plenty of Dunkirk spirit and British pluck

Brexiters are always droning on about how they love adversity, so what could be more enjoyable than Brexit basically being cancelled?

"Dunkirk spirit" could be quite apt - the humiliation of the British Expeditionary Force in Europe defeated in weeks but celebrated as a great victory. The comparison has legs.

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9 minutes ago, Badger said:

"Dunkirk spirit" could be quite apt - the humiliation of the British Expeditionary Force in Europe defeated in weeks but celebrated as a great victory. The comparison has legs.

Once we got out they had a united Europe all under central control.

You know what they say about history repeating itself.😁👍

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I'd say Brexit is more like Gallipoli. A stupid idea, poorly planned, badly executed which eventually lead to the birth of other nations. 

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1 hour ago, SwindonCanary said:

For those thinking the figures are incorrect, wait and see what conditions the EU put on us to extend.

Perhaps Better Britain should have taken your advice before making up this nonsense......(and of course yourself before reposting it)

It's easy to see where they got those figures from, work it out !  None of it is nonsense ! 

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14 minutes ago, Herman said:

I'd say Brexit is more like Gallipoli. A stupid idea, poorly planned, badly executed which eventually lead to the birth of other nations. 

It was actually the decline of the Ottaman Empire that led to the birth of "other nations" and that had been in progress long before Gallipoli.

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Posted (edited)

@Badger, sorry but BigFish has beaten me to it, and despite him posting after a trip to the pub he's done it far more concisely than I would probably have done even thouigh I'm still sitting here stone cold sober  :classic_sad:

Edited by Creative Midfielder

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7 minutes ago, ricardo said:

It was actually the decline of the Ottaman Empire that led to the birth of "other nations" and that had been in progress long before Gallipoli.

I was thinking more about the Aussies and Kiwis. But it also propelled Ataturk to prominence and fame, which eventually helped lead to him becoming the father of the modern Turkey.

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7 minutes ago, ricardo said:

It was actually the decline of the Ottaman Empire that led to the birth of "other nations" and that had been in progress long before Gallipoli.

True, but then arguably the decline of the United Kingdom has also been in progress for a long time - perhaps Brexit will turn out to be one of those trigger points that spark changes that have been brewing for a long while. Certainly no surprise in the current climate if either or both N.I. and Scotland quit the union.

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