Jump to content
Note to existing users - password reset is required Read more... ×
Fuzzar

OT - EU straw poll...

Recommended Posts

10 hours ago, BigFish said:

Bank of England say today that the Brexit process has already cost the UK £80 billion in lost growth.

Yet @Jools is bleating about a number of actions that the BoE have taken that any good neo-liberal would applaud - talk about cakeism.

😮 Christ alive, SmallFry, one only has to look as far as the top of the last page to see my post where I stated that a certain wa.... banker cut money growth.

Mark Carney, SmallFry -- who in August 2015, announced an extra £60 billion of quantitative easing and lowered the bank rate from half a % to a mere quarter, hence weakening the pound.

Mark Carney, SmallFry -- the man who has been wrong about everything.

Edited by Jools

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Herman said:

Bank of America moving to Dublin and Paris taking well paid jobs and assets with them. How many is that now? 

 

Hundreds of companies relocating to the Netherlands. 

Do you have a list of all these companies, Herman?

Seriously, I'm not doubting you 🤥 but I would like to mull over a full and comprehensive list 👍

Edited by Jools

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

No they're not - if you knew anything about Yorkshire or Wales, for example, you would know that the whole mining industry and complete communities were wrecked in the seventies. Those workers, highly skilled and well paid, were never absorbed into other work, at least not any work remotely comparable and believe me it is still very much an issue - perhaps the very public celebrations in many mining villages when Thatcher died escaped your notice!

And did the British economy come to a shuddering halt? No. On the contrary, we have gone from strength to strength since the Thatcherite revolution of the 80s. The mining industry of Yorkshire and Wales was completely unproductive and kept going through taxpayers subsidies. I don't know what you think, but I think that's some pretty cruel punishment to force old men underground for the sake of sentimentality. Even the Labour Governments agree with me as they shut down more pits than the Conservatives.

Howabout some of you leftie snowflakes start a gofundme campaign to open up a coal pit and you get down and do a bit of mining. If you can do that and make a profit I will take back everything I have said. Somehow I can't see a rush from our SJWs

Edited by Rock The Boat
  • Like 1
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a bit busy at the moment, you right wing cliché. I am currently learning how to run a car factory, crowd funding for all the poor bankers and trying to sell some aeroplanes. And the fruit farmers and ferrymen are waiting in the queue before the coal miners. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

And did the British economy come to a shuddering halt? No. On the contrary, we have gone from strength to strength since the Thatcherite revolution of the 80s. The mining industry of Yorkshire and Wales was completely unproductive and kept going through taxpayers subsidies.

 

'Strength to strength' is definitely not a description that I would apply to the British economy but that is entirely tangential to the point I was making.

Essjayess was saying that if the British car industry is decimated over the next few years then the workers will simply be absorbed into other areas and it will be a non -issue :

'And if JLR, Ford, Toyota, Nissan and rest of the car industry want to move  to, let them. Once the thousnds upon thousands of car industry workers  are absorbed into other work over the course of years, the car industry here will no longer be an issue, much like the Coal mining industry of yesteryear.'

I was simply pointing out that this is highly unlikely, the coal industry being just one, although a very stark one, of the multiple examples where industries that we used to lead in have simply disappeared - hence our now tiny manufacturing base. The only jobs for unemployed car workers will in warehouses, coffee shops or pizza delivery - of course there will also be plenty of opportunities in agriculture and care work but somehow I don't think they'll be retraining for those.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Essjayess said:

Let them Herman, its all part of the readjustment that was naturally going to happen in the scenario we find ourselves in. Just surprised how its taken many firms late to finally decide to up stakes when it was clear a year or two ago that a big complex, gridlocked situation would still be the case just a few weeks before the Brexit leave date. And if JLR, Ford, Toyota, Nissan and rest of the car industry want to move  to, let them. Once the thousnds upon thousands of car industry workers  are absorbed into other work over the course of years, the car industry here will no longer be an issue, much like the Coal mining industry of yesteryear. Hard plain facts, yes, hardship for many families yes, but these things happen time and again, and not just in the uk.

Of course industries decline. We no longer have a massive backsmithery sector in the British economy, globally successful fabric milling in Lancashire, or the largest fishing in the world at Grimsby. But that is a result of natural changes or ones beyond the control of the UK. There is an argument that the coal industry in the UK would have slowly disappeared, Thatcher or no Thatcher.

But as I understand it the UK car industry is reasonably successful, and could have gone on being so. What endangers it is not some inevitable decline due to natural forces beyond anyone's control but an entirely self-inflicted wound engendered by blatant lies about the effects of Brexit on the economy.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I was simply pointing out that this is highly unlikely, the coal industry being just one, although a very stark one, of the multiple examples where industries that we used to lead in have simply disappeared - hence our now tiny manufacturing base. The only jobs for unemployed car workers will in warehouses, coffee shops or pizza delivery - of course there will also be plenty of opportunities in agriculture and care work but somehow I don't think they'll be retraining for those.

So should we still be digging up and burning coal?

How does that sit with your views on CO2 and climate change?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:



But as I understand it the UK car industry is reasonably successful, and could have gone on being so. What endangers it is not some inevitable decline due to natural forces beyond anyone's control but an entirely self-inflicted wound engendered by blatant lies about the effects of Brexit on the economy.

The British Car Industry's long term decline dates from well before Thatcher. Indeed you could say that it only revived due to foreign investment made possible by the very changes that Thatcher introduced.

But I expect that would be a hard one for the Left to admit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The British Car Industry's long term decline dates from well before Thatcher. Indeed you could say that it only revived due to foreign investment made possible by the very changes that Thatcher introduced.

But I expect that would be a hard one for the Left to admit.

Thatcher's economic policies were a mixture of necessary ruthlessness and unnecessary hatred, made worse by a simple failure to understand that not everyone can fend entirely for themselves, that there is such a thing as society, and that sometimes that society includes the state.

If her policies, good and bad, helped reboot the UK motor industry then the other major factor in that revival was her drive to create the EU's single market. I believe she regarded that as her greatest political achievement. And that foreign investment has come about precesely because the UK has been in this highly economicaly beneficial club.

It is not hard to imagine what, if she were still alive and compos mentis, she would think of the successors who revere her name but are hellbent on throwing away that membership and all its benefits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, ricardo said:

So should we still be digging up and burning coal?

No, absolutely not but equally we shouldn't just assume that we can decimate an industry, in this case car manufacturing, and in Essjayess's words  ' once the thousnds upon thousands of car industry workers  are absorbed into other work over the course of years, the car industry here will no longer be an issue, much like the Coal mining industry of yesteryear"

That simple and entirely inaccurate assumption would be diastrous both for our economy and the livelihoods/welfare of many thousands of car workers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The British Car Industry's long term decline dates from well before Thatcher. Indeed you could say that it only revived due to foreign investment made possible by the very changes that Thatcher introduced.

But I expect that would be a hard one for the Left to admit.

Or in the real world Thatcher did a complete reverse in regard to watch she had been led to believe, and stood by as state money was put into British Leyland to keep it afloat - much as what those naughty countries in Europe were doing.

Yet again when seeking foreign investment she, or whoever was in charge, used state funds to facilitate Nissan setting up in the North East.

Interventionism, I think it was known as.

You would do well Ricardo, to actually have some grasp on your brief rather than regurgitating the usual old guff out of the Express.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Jools said:

😮 Christ alive, SmallFry, one only has to look as far as the top of the last page to see my post where I stated that a certain wa.... banker cut money growth.

Mark Carney, SmallFry -- who in August 2015, announced an extra £60 billion of quantitative easing and lowered the bank rate from half a % to a mere quarter, hence weakening the pound.

Mark Carney, SmallFry -- the man who has been wrong about everything.

I thought all you Guido types loved monetarism and hated Keynesiasm, seems I was wrong. You do know there is a difference between monetary growth and productive growth, don't you? Carney was right in his actions then because through those actions the UK avoided a recession . Equally this was always a temporary measure that would need to be unwound when the opportunity was there.

The £ lost value due to the Brexit vote and the recovery has been slower since because of the Brexit vote inhibiting domestic investment. If we crash out of the EU the pound will go lower yet, inflation will rise and the UK will face another recession. Carney will probably act again and this may be successful in pulling round the economy. Of course you and your ilk will continue to blame a very competant man while claiming he was wrong in predicting a recession that by his actions was avoided.

Brexit has already cost the UK £80 billion in lost growth alone, or in bus language £800 million a week. Perhaps you should post that, or of course put it on the side of a bus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately you forget the RWNJ's other claim that Gordon Brown single handedly caused the sub prime mortgage collapse and so was personally responsible for the global crash of 2008.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Bill said:

Unfortunately you forget the RWNJ's other claim that Gordon Brown single handedly caused the sub prime mortgage collapse and so was personally responsible for the global crash of 2008.

Far too modest, he did indeed save the world😀

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ricardo said:

Far too modest, he did indeed save the world😀

now now, you are not hand crank, no need to make up stuff

there was no comment about about 'saving the world' merely a pi ss pull out of you cranks repeatedly blaming him for the global crash of 2008

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

'Strength to strength' is definitely not a description that I would apply to the British economy but that is entirely tangential to the point I was making.

Essjayess was saying that if the British car industry is decimated over the next few years then the workers will simply be absorbed into other areas and it will be a non -issue :

'And if JLR, Ford, Toyota, Nissan and rest of the car industry want to move  to, let them. Once the thousnds upon thousands of car industry workers  are absorbed into other work over the course of years, the car industry here will no longer be an issue, much like the Coal mining industry of yesteryear.'

I was simply pointing out that this is highly unlikely, the coal industry being just one, although a very stark one, of the multiple examples where industries that we used to lead in have simply disappeared - hence our now tiny manufacturing base. The only jobs for unemployed car workers will in warehouses, coffee shops or pizza delivery - of course there will also be plenty of opportunities in agriculture and care work but somehow I don't think they'll be retraining for those.

The car industry will go into decline in the future, just like many industries before it, as technological changes make the ownership of vehicles something of a novelty. For sure there are a few years to go but driverless cars will mean a car will become an on-demand service. And when that happens the number of cars being produced will go the way of supermarket plastic bags. So EssJayEss is correct when he says we shouldn't get hung up on industries disappearing because that's just the natural life-cycle of those industries.

But there are two things we should be thinking about in this context. The first is how can we be nimble and flexible to exploit the newly emerging technologies, and the second is what do we do with all the people being displaced by the new technologies. Well, a UK free from the drag of the EU is in a much better starting position to utilise our abundant creativity. And as a free country we can work out our own solutions for the second problem without having to seek agreement from twenty-seven other nations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Bill said:

Or in the real world Thatcher did a complete reverse in regard to watch she had been led to believe, and stood by as state money was put into British Leyland to keep it afloat - much as what those naughty countries in Europe were doing.

Yet again when seeking foreign investment she, or whoever was in charge, used state funds to facilitate Nissan setting up in the North East.

Interventionism, I think it was known as.

You would do well Ricardo, to actually have some grasp on your brief rather than regurgitating the usual old guff out of the Express.

Thatcher subsidised British Leyland in the early years of her tenure primarily because she inherited commitments from the outgoing Labour Government. When it was feasible she sold the company to a private buyer.

And the state funds that set up Nissan were an investment to re-create a car industry that had been destroyed by nationalisation. This is known as good government.Perhaps some of those ex-miners found employment in Derby or Sunderland?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good afternoon.

More from Guido, especially for SmallFry:

image.png.b9aa345c8d9655bf26bf5560f723e2b8.png

The narrative of a mass exodus of City jobs has already been consigned to the Project Fear dustbin of history, with just 2,000 jobs now expected to move in the event of no-deal, compared to wild predictions of over 230,000 before the referendum. Now the FT of all places is reporting that EU asset managers are actually considering moving to the UK because of Brexit. That wasn’t in the script…

EU fund managers are up in arms over EU rules which would force them to trade dual-listed shares on uncompetitive EU exchanges after Brexit if the Commission refuse to give them access to London after Brexit. The German Investment Funds Association said that “without equivalence granted to UK trading venues, we see the real possibility of EU27 fund managers locating operations in the future in the UK”. London’s pull as the financial capital of the world is just too strong, whether the EU likes it or not…😎

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Herman said:

I'm a bit busy at the moment, you right wing cliché. I am currently learning how to run a car factory, crowd funding for all the poor bankers and trying to sell some aeroplanes. And the fruit farmers and ferrymen are waiting in the queue before the coal miners. 

Yeah, well, when you're not so busy then... 😃

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Thatcher subsidised British Leyland in the early years of her tenure primarily because she inherited commitments from the outgoing Labour Government. When it was feasible she sold the company to a private buyer.

And the state funds that set up Nissan were an investment to re-create a car industry that had been destroyed by nationalisation. This is known as good government.Perhaps some of those ex-miners found employment in Derby or Sunderland?

Nope, yet more lies from hand crank.

The subsidies lasted from '79-'88 and were not part of any earlier commitments. And they ran totally against her governments supposedly anti-state ideals.

Similarly the huge state subsidies handed over to Nissan were again the direct opposite of what was claimed.

Thatcher did not do this, it was the government at the time. The UK does not have a presidential system of govrnment whereby one person can unilaterally make and carry out decisions.

And I doubt the irony of you defending the very thing Corbyn wants to do is lost on most on here.

 

ps nice to see you and Jools are back at the same time.... now where's 'mad' moy ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Thatcher's economic policies were a mixture of necessary ruthlessness and unnecessary hatred, made worse by a simple failure to understand that not everyone can fend entirely for themselves, that there is such a thing as society, and that sometimes that society includes the state.

If her policies, good and bad, helped reboot the UK motor industry then the other major factor in that revival was her drive to create the EU's single market. I believe she regarded that as her greatest political achievement. And that foreign investment has come about precesely because the UK has been in this highly economicaly beneficial club.

It is not hard to imagine what, if she were still alive and compos mentis, she would think of the successors who revere her name but are hellbent on throwing away that membership and all its benefits.

"They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours."
 

That was the full quote on that. At rock bottom, it's exactly the same idea as the 'big society' one that was banded about a few years back, which is that over-reliance on state intervention in all areas results in very few people actually intervening on an individual level because there's an expectation that government should solve all problems. 

Actual societies are created on mutual dependence. If the state meets all needs, there is no mutual dependence, so there is no society.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Bill said:

Nope, yet more lies from hand crank.

The subsidies lasted from '79-'88 and were not part of any earlier commitments. And they ran totally against her governments supposedly anti-state ideals.

Similarly the huge state subsidies handed over to Nissan were again the direct opposite of what was claimed.

Thatcher did not do this, it was the government at the time. The UK does not have a presidential system of govrnment whereby one person can unilaterally make and carry out decisions.

And I doubt the irony of you defending the very thing Corbyn wants to do is lost on most on here.

 

ps nice to see you and Jools are back at the same time.... now where's 'mad' moy ?

Er No, not lies. British Leyland was partly nationalised in 1975 by the then Labour government and was subsequently restructured over the next decade in an attempt to make it a profitable concern. Some sections such as Land Rover, Jaguar, Mini etc were viable but many of the marques from that era were not. Who remembers, Hillman, Sunbeam, Jowett, Wolseley, Riley etc, not to mention Austin and Morris. Far too many marques competing with each other in too small a market and better quality foreign imports.

Governments of both complexions attempted to rationalise the British car industry but a combination of poor management, low productivity and investment and intransigent unions did for it in the end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually no.

The 'big society's thought was that charities could pick up where the state dropped away.

Whereas the state is society. It is us, just as it is in the Nordic countries. You don't here folk over there bemoaning the lack of society because of state involvement.

Perhaps then the UK could close the state run NHS and let folk rely upon mutual dependence. Yep, just like in the jolly old US. Odd how it makes a bit more sense when you grasp what is really behind it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ricardo said:

Er No, not lies. British Leyland was partly nationalised in 1975 by the then Labour government and was subsequently restructured over the next decade in an attempt to make it a profitable concern. Some sections such as Land Rover, Jaguar, Mini etc were viable but many of the marques from that era were not. Who remembers, Hillman, Sunbeam, Jowett, Wolseley, Riley etc, not to mention Austin and Morris. Far too many marques competing with each other in too small a market and better quality foreign imports.

Governments of both complexions attempted to rationalise the British car industry but a combination of poor management, low productivity and investment and intransigent unions did for it in the end.

Oh dear, I think we are all aware of the failings of BL - that is not the point the cranks are trying to put over.

That being that far from what is claiemeda self confessed, free market espousing Conservative spent twice as many years subsiding BL than did Labour. Then once again used state intervention to entice Nissan to the UK.

Now whether that was right or wrong is not the point of discussion, it is one of pointing out the misrepresentation that you and fellow cranks are putting out.

Probably not willfully in your case as you have shown umpteen times a very limited grasp on facts (something that seems to be an almost explicit requirement of being a brexiteer.

 

ps in the same light have a look at the witless guff Rees-Mogg spouted last night about British concentration camps in the Boer war and how he has shown (yet again) to be a liar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Bill said:

 self confessed, free market espousing Conservative spent twice as many years subsiding BL than did Labour. Then once again used state intervention to entice Nissan to the UK.

The heartless bastards

Hangings to good for 'em

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Bill said:

Try checking first, next time

I'm too busy trying to find the starting handle for my Standard 8

image.png.4943a7c7a5eeb38360f9a02ef80669d1.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×