No Mad 0 Posted November 20, 2005 Any budding referees out there?I have some queries about the laws of the game from yesterday''s match v Luton1. Are there clear guidelines for when the referee should stop play for injuries? I thought it was only for head injuries but does the referee have discretion on this. Yesterday, the official stopped play for an injury to one of their players when we were in an attcking position. The player was fine in a short time and did not seem to have a head injury.2. Similarly, if the ball goes dead and a player is down injured, can the referee allow play to restart. He did this when Ashton was down with the injury that forced his substitution. Ashton was probably only 10m from where the throw-in was taken and the referee must have seen him.3. Sorry - an offside question. If a player is say 5m inside the opponents half in an offside position and a long ball is played into the opponents half but before the player chases the ball he returns to his own half and then chases, can he be given offside? I would have thought not, but Henderson was.Any views? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Colourful Canary 0 Posted November 20, 2005 [:^)]I would have thought that what mattered waswhether Hendo was offside or on side at the moment the ball was played.When the ball was first played he was offside. It does not matter whathappened after that. I too noticed the incident you mention at thegame, and my first thought was that Hendo clearly does not understandthe laws of the game - he may have gone back into his own half and thenstarted running forward again, but by then it was too late, the ballhad already been played and that surely must be the instant when theref has to decide whether he is offside or not - judging by the amazingnumber of times Hendo managed to get caught offside in just 15 minutes,I doubt if he even understands the meaning of offside, let alone themore technical points! Perhaps Worthy can explain it to him, if heunderstands it himself, that is. I thought that Hendo''s total inability to hold the ball up, and his habit of getting caught offside,had a direct effect as Luton got more posession and as a result pressed hard in the last 15 minutes. We can''t afford to start withHendo at Milwall - he is at best a right winger, certainly not a goodcentral forward, despite him saying it''s his best position.Dunno about the other rules Max, but one thing I noticed was that theirkeeper did not have to go off after receiving treatment as an outfieldplayer would - are keepers exempt from this ridiculous rule? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DumbleDelia is Magic 0 Posted November 20, 2005 [quote user="No Mad"]3. Sorry - an offside question. If a player is say 5m inside the opponents half in an offside position and a long ball is played into the opponents half but before the player chases the ball he returns to his own half and then chases, can he be given offside? I would have thought not, but Henderson was.[/quote]Two blokes behind me had a big debate on this yesterday. From my point of view, if the player is offside when the ball is played, he''s still offside whether he runs back to his own half or not Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chunky! 0 Posted November 20, 2005 Keepers are exempt from the injury rule, similarly if a keeper is injured play always stops. If a player is seriously injured, play tends to be stopped regardless of whether it is head or not. Its when the ball is played that counts, you can''t run back onside then chase as far as I know. Never really seen Hendo play but from whats being said he doesn''t sound like he''s ready for first team now? Or does he need building in? ChunkyOTBC! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
T07 0 Posted November 20, 2005 Correct, its the moment the ball is kicked....Re treatment during play, I''ve argued for YEARS that play shouldcontinue. The trainer should be allowed onto the pitch to attend theplayer whilst the game continues, as I believe they do in Rugby. Itwould stop timewasting immediately. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dicky 0 Posted November 20, 2005 I think the ref and linesmen yesterday were just about the worst I have seen, ever. Would not let the game flow and got the majority of decisions wrong.Great chant from Barlcay, v.loud and sustained chant of "Lino, you''re a c***". Made me chuckle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AJ 1,218 Posted November 20, 2005 [quote user="No Mad"]Any budding referees out there?I have some queries about the laws of the game from yesterday''s match v Luton1. Are there clear guidelines for when the referee should stop play for injuries? I thought it was only for head injuries but does the referee have discretion on this. Yesterday, the official stopped play for an injury to one of their players when we were in an attcking position. The player was fine in a short time and did not seem to have a head injury.2. Similarly, if the ball goes dead and a player is down injured, can the referee allow play to restart. He did this when Ashton was down with the injury that forced his substitution. Ashton was probably only 10m from where the throw-in was taken and the referee must have seen him.3. Sorry - an offside question. If a player is say 5m inside the opponents half in an offside position and a long ball is played into the opponents half but before the player chases the ball he returns to his own half and then chases, can he be given offside? I would have thought not, but Henderson was.Any views?[/quote]hope this helps:1) Unless it is a serious injury (blood) or head injury play does not have to be stopped, there is a fair play rule that should the team kick the ball out the opposite team must give the ball back, however if the player seems injured and play goes on and he does not get up then the ref CAN stop play to allow treatment to the player, a drop ball would then be issued2) If the ball is out of play and a player is down the game should not re-start untill the player is deemed fit to continue or is taken of the pitch for treatment3) No, the linesman didnt have a clue, having returned to your own half you are then no longer offside, henderson was not offside . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
No Mad 0 Posted November 20, 2005 I have been researching this - see http://www.fifa.com/en/regulations/regulation/0,1584,3,00.htmlThese new laws became operational in July apparently.The issue of injury is covered under law 5 from what I can see. The referee can stop play if in his opinion a player is ''seriously injured''. However, play should only be stopped to remove such a player from the pitch. The laws do not seem to exempt goalkeepers from only returning to the pitch after play has started although I know this is common practice. I guess that part of the law is to stop feigning of injury but I agree it is irritating at times. Blood injuries are covered separately simply to say anyone with a bleeding wound should leave the pitch.The laws seem silent on whether the referee can allow play to re-start if a player is down injured. The implication is that he should not but the referee has pretty wide powers and seems to be essentially always right!Offside is covered under law 11. From that it seems pretty clear that Henderson was offside and going back into your own half makes no difference.Not sure it is fair to blame Hendo though - I thought this would be allowed and clearly there are different opinions but to me the laws only say that you are not in an offside position in your own half - but it is your position at the time the ball is played that matters.Perhaps there are a few of us who need some more education in the laws of the game? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whoareyou? 0 Posted November 20, 2005 Hendo was offside when the ball was first played and that is all the matters. I think he changed his mind to run after it cos Worthy was shouting at him to chase it. Agree on the ref and the linesmen though. They were all very poor. Why Thorne was penalised for every header he went for, i don''t know. And why was Hendo penalised for shielding the ball just before the end??????? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king of latvia 0 Posted November 20, 2005 1. its up to the ref to stop play if a player as a injury , refs have been told to stop play if a player has a head injury.2. was ashton off the pitch ? i could not see from where i was sitting. if not then the ref should wait for the player to be treated or leave the playing field.before the game to restart.3. offside -a player is offside when the ball as gone forward and the the player touches or goes towards the ball .if he walking back towards his own goal and doesnt join in play before another player touches the ball then hes not offisidealso officals touching the ball they are not to touch the ball as this would be helping the team who has a goalkick,freekick ect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Hopkins 0 Posted November 20, 2005 With the Henderson moment I think he decided to chase it as the linesman didn''t flag at all. Usually the linesman does in that situation and its up to the ref to allow an advantage or to avoid blowing up for an unesscessary free kick. When Hendo saw that the flag was still down after looking at the linesman he decided to go for it and was quite rightly agrieved when he saw the linesman FINALLY raise his flag!Both linesman were quite shocking yesterday anyway IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Syteanric 1 Posted November 20, 2005 i dont know about the trainer coming onto treat the player for inuries.. they might get in the way! I do think that the players should be made to WALK round to the dugout before they come back on.. thats not as easy as it sounds.. if u have ever walked around the pitch at Carrow Road u will know it can take 3 or 4 minutes to get to the dug out from the other side... players wont want to waste the time with this so will cut down on feigning injuries i think. 4 minutes could be crucial if it means a team is down to 10 men in that period, or if a star player is walking round the perimiter. I''ve always hoped a team would play on when the keepers injured, would be a chuckle.jas :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
No Mad 0 Posted November 20, 2005 King of Latvia - Ashton was definitely on pitch. Very close to the throw-in.Steve (and others) - the laws distinguish clearly between being in an offside position and being offside. Henderson was in an offside position when the ball was played but as he was going back away from the ball. He only became offside when he actively went for the ball. I think the assistant was right this time - and this probably accounts for a lot of ''late flags''. I thought Henderson seemed to deliberately go back into his own half and then turn run for the ball. He is quick though as he would still have got to the ball before the defender IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LinkNR9 0 Posted November 20, 2005 The officials were the worst I''ve seen at Carrow Road for a long, long time. The ref seemed to take some perverse pleasure from awarding fouls to the wrong team all afternoon.And is it in the lineman''s guidelines that he can''t touch the ball? When the ball went out for a goal kick to Luton in the second half, the ball landed about two feet away from the lino, but he refused to kick the ball back to their goalie who had to run from his goal line all the way over to the touchline to get the ball! What''s all that about? Their goalie, quite rightly in my opinion, wasn''t too impressed, nor were our supporters, who told the lino what they thought of him! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canaries for Ever 0 Posted November 20, 2005 Following on from the comments on the referee and linesmen yesterday - can anyone tell me if there are any rules governing if the linesmen have to change sides at half-time. We seem to get the one that is always flagging offside, swap sides when the teams change round at half-time. However, this doesn''t always happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
No Mad 0 Posted November 21, 2005 Law 6 covers assistants and as far as I know there is nothing about how they are used in each half and whether or not they can touch the ball when out of play. Clearly, we are not expecting them to run after the ball but if it falls at their feet, it seems a bit bizarre for them just to stand there. Perhaps, if they are going to do this, it makes sense to have one of the ball boys/girls very close to the assistant to avoid this kind of embarrassment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Added Time 14 0 Posted November 21, 2005 It is up to the ref which half the linemen run the line for. He can decide to leave them the same for the each half or to switch over.I still don''t know what half the fouls were given for. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris MacDonald 0 Posted November 21, 2005 On the Question of Hendo being Offside or not.The Linesman and the Referee got it spot on. Hendo''s first run was putting himself offside. Nigel Worthington must have warned him to the danger of him being offside as he went pass the bench. Hendo checked his run and began to run back to put himself onside. Hendo then made the mistake of resuming his run that would put him in the same offside position as he was before.The Linesman could not flag offside until he was passed the second to last Luton player. If the ball had touched any other player before Hendo had reached or was level with the second to last player he would not have been Offside in other words he would have timed his run and we would probably come away with a 3-0 Victory.Well Done the CanariesChris[:D] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DisorientatedCanary 0 Posted November 22, 2005 on the point of the ref, did anyone see their keeper shove Hendo in bk?, granted Hendo had the ball but still worth a telling off i feel, the ref didnt even blink, n lets face it if Hendo had turned round to moan he wud have got booked after all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
No Mad 0 Posted November 22, 2005 ChrisI agree that the officials were right on this decision - although I thought they were wrong at the time. However, I don''t think your explanation is quite right. Henderson was in an offside position when the ball was played but was not offside because he was going back to his own half, i.e. he was not active. He became offside when he became active, i.e. when he turned to pursue the ball and I think this was when the assistant flagged. His relationship to opposition players at that point is not relevant.The question about touching another player is complex because it raises issues of phases of play. For example, had that ball gone to their goalkeeper and he tried to clear it but miskicked it to Henderson, I think he would still have been offside had he tried to play the ball.Just for the record, I have pasted the offside laws here:Offside Position It is not an offence in itself to be in an offside position. A player is in an offside position if: he is nearer to his opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second last opponent. A player is not in an offside position if he is in his own half of the field of play or he is level with the second last opponent or he is level with the last two opponents. Offence A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by: interfering with play or interfering with an opponent or gaining an advantage by being in that position. No Offence There is no offside offence if a player receives the ball directly from: a goal kick or a throw-in or a corner kick Infringements/Sanctions For any offside offence, the referee awards an indirect free kick to the opposing team to be taken from the place where the infringement occurred. * (see page 3) Decisions of the International F.A. Board Decision 1In the definition of offside position, "nearer to his opponents'' goal line" means that any part of his head, body or feet is nearer to his opponents'' goal line than both the ball and the second last opponent. The arms are not included in this definition.Decisions of the International F.A. Board Decision 2The definitions of elements of involvement in active play are as follows:Interfering with play means playing or touching the ball passed or touched by a team-mate.Interfering with an opponent means preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or movements or making a gesture or movement which, in the opinion of the referee, deceives or distracts an opponent.Gaining an advantage by being in that position means playing a ball that rebounds to him off a post or the crossbar having been in an offside position or playing a ball that rebounds to him off an opponent having been in an offside position. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fat Barman 0 Posted November 22, 2005 [quote user="Canaries for Ever"]Following on from the comments onthe referee and linesmen yesterday - can anyone tell me if there areany rules governing if the linesmen have to change sides athalf-time. We seem to get the one that is always flagging offside, swapsides when the teams change round at half-time. However, this doesn''talways happen.[/quote]I''ve wondered about this. My memory is poor, but I think Linesmen used to maintain position for both halves, so each team could benefit/suffer equally from somebody having a ''mare.Nowadays it seems to be hit & miss. Sometimes they swap ends at half time, so you get lumbered with the same clown for both halves.Does everybody remember the fellow with the withered arm? You could always tell if you had him for the whole game, or not! He was a great lino too, perhaps he could take a masterclass? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites