It does my nut in (part 2)

[chicken 0]

Ok round 2:

People keep comparing Norwich''s success in the premiership with those of the teams promoted.

Wigan and West Ham mainly. Funny how they don''t enclude Sunderland in their comparison - a team in a position much more alike to our own than the other two.

It takes money to tango in the premiership - you need to have quality and depth else you end up playing a left back at right back and a right back in central midfield with a centreback upfront.

These things cost money. West Ham have never been a particularily poor club, they will never be struggling for supporters nor a market for merchandise giving their history and there geographical location.

Wigan who were literally no-where a few seasons ago have a very wealthy owner who has the money to dish out at Jewels request - the amount of money spent so far on new players goes a long way to show that the money does make the difference.

We have also seen the result of last years premiership campaign in the way of financial impact which was enough to ensure we can keep the loan payments up for a few seasons to ensure we can raise money to spend elsewhere.

The fact is a lot of people may have over-rated our chances of going straight back up - myself included.

We actually have an incredibly young side, Fleming, Charlton and Thorne are the only two outfield players over 30.

If Worthington goes I think it must be for the right reasons. At the moment the reasons arnt that he is a bad manager - it is that the players are not performing and perhaps have become too comfortable with the idea that some are not really challenged for their positions.

For example I would like to see Brennan given a go down the left again ahead of Huckerby - or to push Huckerby back up front. The last time Hux was dropped he came back with a vengence.

To me the team has become reliant on their key players to do all of the work, to create that something special.

If a new manager is to come in it is because the nice cosyness at the club needs to be shaken up a little and people put through their paces a little more.

I don''t actually think that that is to say that the way Worthington has run the team in the last few seasons is bad - its just that like West Brom and Megson - maybe we need a change. We know we have a squad capable of promotion but maybe we just need a slightly different approach.

Although I have been a Worthington supporter and I would still say that I am rather than not, I do think that at some point something has to give. And right now there is oppertunity for someone to come in and make a difference whilst there is still a chance of a shot of the play offs (even though we lost we only slipped one point off the play-offs).

What we need is for some of the supporters to be a little more realistic and realise that it has taken a lot of time and effort of everyone involved at the club to get it as stable as it is. They are and rightly should be incredibly proud of where the club has got to. It is not going to be easy for them to accept 1) Worthy may not offer us what we need anymore 2) Find exactly what it is we do need?

Ranieri would be an option but I really don''t think he would come to us or be affordable. O''Neill is looking after his wife and has already said that he is not interested in the Ireland job. I think that takes us out of the running too. There is Keegan however . . . . . or maybe even Jean Tigana of Fulham promotion and survival fame until a falling out lead to his sacking.

If there are no better options then the club may have no choice but keep Worthington - unless they decided to bring someone in as a sporting director, eg Venables or Smith to give Worthington a hand to lift his beleagured troops. It has worked at various clubs before now. It may be worth a try at Norwich.

Who will know but I am sure the board know exactly what they are doi

[Dame to Blame 95]

Very good post chicken .

[Syteanric 1]

Keegan is a worse choice than Worthington!

he has failed at every club he''s been at!

jas

[3pmkickoff 0]

How dare you post something that makes complete sense

[wiggles 0]

How has Keegan failed at every club he''s been at.

Promotion at Newcastle

Promotion at Fulham

Promotion at Man City.

Wouldn''t mind some of that sort of failure here.

[Canary Poirot 1]

Chicken,

I disagree with you concerning one point. Jim Brennen playing wide left. Maybe wide left at Scunthorpe but not at Norwich. This guy for me typifies why our season has gone wrong. He is one of a number of distinctly average Championship players we have populating our squad who wouldn''t look out of place in the Plymouth or Hull sides. He also lacks the necessary fight needed. I know he''s out of contract at the end of the season. Why not just give him the value of half his contract now and say, "thanks Jim, but you''re just not doing it son, try Bury". And then use his freed up wages to get in someone with some hunger and quality to play wide right. Huckerby will cover wide left.

[StevenageFan 0]

Brennan given a go on the left again, how many more times????

Huckerby pushed back up front...  again how many more times????    Both are rubbish in both those positions and both were played in those positions on Saturday and were..........rubbish.

Apart from that the post was very good.

[rieg77 0]

I think its outrageous that your post is sensible and level-headed!!

Seriously though, I agree with a lot of what you say. As a supporter it is difficult not to get carried away with the successes that your club has on the pitch, but rarely do we become so enthused by the successes off the pitch, such as stabilising the club, expanding the operation, etc.

As I have said before, we all went into this campaign with a sense of optimism about our chances, but 16 games in I think its time for a reality check. By no means are we the giant amongst minnows in this league that some supporters would have you believe. Beyond Charlton, Bolton, Leicester and West Brom I can''t think of a team who has bounced back in to the big time at the first attempt following a season of relegation.

Ultimately, I beleive that one of the main problems at the moment is confidence. I have been at most matches this season, both home and away, and at most of these matches I have witnessed supporters being overly critical. Players who they dislike are brought on only for them to be barracked before they touch the ball. Is it any wonder that these players perform badly given that kind of support. I also doubt very much that the players themselves were assured that chants of ''What a load of rubbish'' were directed solely at the manager. It is only natural that a players confidence is dented by such an act.

A change in manager may bring a renewed sense of confidence to the dressing room, but only if he is a recognised name in the game with a track record for success. Promoting from within would have no effect. One thing is certain though. For us to sack Worthington and bring in a manager with a good track record would ensure that our little kitty for January is severly cut and it is almost certain that a new manager would have to sell to buy.....and that means one thing.....bye bye Ashton.

As for the candidates proposed, Ranieri is highly unlikely, as is Keegan and Tigana has signed for Besiktas. Apart from the current incumbent, the only realistic option out there is George Burley in my opinion but who could blame him if he''d had his fill of management for the time being. Its uncertain that he would come given his ties to the boys in blue and I doubt that some supporters would be willing to give him a go because of that anyway.

[ZLF 271]

"To me the team has become reliant on their key players to do all of the work, to create that something special.

If a new manager is to come in it is because the nice cosyness at the club needs to be shaken up a little and people put through their paces a little more.

I don''t actually think that that is to say that the way Worthington has run the team in the last few seasons is bad - its just that like West Brom and Megson - maybe we need a change. We know we have a squad capable of promotion but maybe we just need a slightly different approach.

Although I have been a Worthington supporter and I would still say that I am rather than not, I do think that at some point something has to give. And right now there is oppertunity for someone to come in and make a difference whilst there is still a chance of a shot of the play offs (even though we lost we only slipped one point off the play-offs)."

As ever a quality post chicken but the above 4 paragraphs sum up the current situation for me.  Worthy is NOT the devil incarnate but the team are not being encouraged/made to perform to their best.  That Nige can not change the situation means that a fresh impetus is needed.  Nige has simply gone stale. 

I was on the owlsonline site and some of the comments from afar echo that he seems to have take NCFC as far as HE can at the moment and for the benefit of both parties a change is needed.  The quote of Atkinson about complacency setting in after 3 years at a club was made - the time span may not be accurate ut there is some truth in this, with exceptional circumstances of a SAF, Wenger or Dario Grady outside the norm. 

OTBC

[rich 0]

not strong enough reasons to think worthy isn''t a good enough
manager, erm lets try these.

1: 11 wins out of 54.
2: One point off relegation.
3: Spent more money than any manager at the club and still took
us from 20th to 20th.
4: When was the last time we look well coached, i.e Threatening''
at set pieces, players improving, well organized.

You can''t have it both ways chicken, praising worthy for promotion
and then saying it''s all the players fault.
I can believe what kind of bubble some of you are living in, under
no circumstances can bad luck, injuries, or whatever be blamed
for a run of 54 games.

[rieg77 0]

[quote]not strong enough reasons to think worthy isn''t a good enough manager, erm lets try these. 1: 11 wins out of 54. 2: One point off relegation. 3: Spent more money than any manager at the club and stil...[/quote]

well lets see how they stack up shall we??

1) Lets be realistic here. Whilst I admit that this season, the performance has not been what we all expected, I think you have to apply a certain perspective to our performances in the premier league. It was after all, a massive step up for us, we did have massive injury problems, we did not have £40 miiliion to spend on players. We did not finish massively adrift at the bottom of the league, unlike some clubs who would consider themselves bigger than us.

2) After 16 games. Theres another 30 to go. Thats 90 points. We''re only 8 points off the playoffs. A bit too early to be worrying about relegation imo.

3) Well actually, saved us from relegation, took us to the playoff final the next year, finished outside the playoffs the next year, won the league the following year, relegated 2 points from safety last season and yes, its been disappointing this season so far. I think its very harsh to miss out the 3 or 4 years that were very successful and there are a lot of mittigating circumstances.

4) There have been examples of good play in most of our matches. Its the consistency thats the problem.

You need to stop bending the truth to suit your argument. It is not a run of 54 games of defeats it is 54 games in which we obtained a lot of draws and 11 victories. Admittedly half the results were probably defeats but we were in the premier league for goodness sake.

You accuse people like me of living in a bubble but I think the same is true of you. You''ve allowed yourself to get carried away by unrealsitic expectations and now you''re disappointed, its someone elses fault. Football is full of ups and downs...this is a down, but your negativity is only contributing to keep it that way.

[ZLF 271]

[quote]well lets see how they stack up shall we?? 1) Lets be realistic here. Whilst I admit that this season, the performance has not been what we all expected, I think you have to apply a certain perspecti...[/quote]

Rieg

1.  11/56, 12/60 which ever way you look at it it is double relegation form.  As far as £40m to spend the only clubs that do that sort of thing are the Liverpools and above.  Wigan, West Ham, Bolton, Charlton etc do not have £40m to blow either.  Our squad last year was far better than even us fans realised.  That squad WAS good enough to survive but it took until April for the manager to realise what his best side was, and that involved Safri & Helveg and should have excluded Flem, for at least a while, for some of the season.  Idenifying the right tactics and personnel last season cost us relegation and the same mistakes are evident this year, so the comparison and inclusion of these games are relevant.

2.  It is as much a fact that we are 1 point off a relegation spot, as it is we are 8 of the play offs.  However it is not just three wins to get to a play off spot - it will take more games to close the gap.   We have a paltry 16 points from 48 and are more than a third through the season.  While we CAN still achieve the play offs it will probably take at least 7 successive wins to get to that position and overhaul the 13 teams (yes more than half the league) between us and 6th; we are one game away from being in the bottom three. Nothing this season, from the performances on the pitch, has suggested that we have the ability to go on such a run despite good forwards and defenders.  1 point from 12, no wins against any side in the top half of the table and 9 of those games at home, 50% of this years games are defeats, suggests that we should not be panicking about relegation but be aware that we very much have relegation form.

3. Of course you cant ignore the good times nor the undoubted success NW has brought us.  He rightly takes the accolades for building a promotion winning side and a team that shouldhave stayed in the prem.  Likewise he has to take the blame for the bad times too. This IS his team and managers are always judged on the current and not the past.   Currently, as Chicken points out, something needs to change.  The manager does not seem to know how to stop our decline, a rot of some decription appears to have set in and very few managers have ever been able to do that.  I do not think Worthy is one of those exceptions.  It is not personal, I would love him to succeed again with NCFC but no longer have that beleif that he can.  The fact is we do sit too low in the league and it is a team that Nigel built.

4.  I agree there have been some good examples but they have been far too few and far too sporadic from a team that is costly and talented.  The fact that Delia can only quote 40 mins of good football against Hull in defence of the manager tells its own story.  It is the managers job to coach in that consistency and I thank you for highlighting this.   As many will know I feel the failure to improve players throught his reign has been Niges biggest failure since being at the club; the club has improved bybringing in better players, not improving existing resources and at some stage we have to nuture to stay alive as a club, whether it is through the youth system or bringing in talented players like briggs/colin and developing them   

Things do not stack up, it is not the end of the world yet, but its hard to see how things can get much worse this season either

[Plastic Scouser 0]

Sunderlamd - managed by?  Mick McCarthy.  Not someone I''d be particularly interested in seeing at Norwich - no better than Worthy - ok so he''s got international experience but then so has Roy Hodgson and there''s no way I''d want to see someone like him at Carrow Rd....

[rieg77 0]

Zipper

Although we don''t agree on everything, its nice that someone on this forum is capable of reasoned debate instead of resulting to the usual ''I disagree, you''re an idiot'' approach that most seem to take.

Heres my thoughts on what you had to say:

1. I agree that the 11/56 statistic makes poor reading. But I thinkg to ignore the fact that we were in the premier league for most of that time is unfair - its obviously much harder up there with the big boys and everyone at the club was on a massive learning curve. I''m not sure I agree agree that our squad was far better than we realised - it was not big enough for a start and the side that got promotion needed a massive overhaul for it to be sufficient to survive - somthing for which we did not have the resources.

2. I agree in general with what you say. I just feel that theres a bit too much hysteria about the whole thing. I feel people went into this season expecting too much and therefore they''re overly disappointed. Last season was an unrealised opportunity for whatever reason, but lets not forget it took us 9 years to get there.

3. Its also true to argue that very few managers have achieved the feat of getting their team back into the prem at the first attempt. If we base our actions solely on what has gone before then we should have sacked him as soon as we were relegated, knowing it was highly unlikely he could get us promoted.

4. Delias comment aside, I think theres been more than 40 minutes of decent play - a lot more. Our problem yet again seems to be making it last for 90 minutes though. I can''t argue with you on your second point - it has been a disappointment to see the likes of Crow semingly flourishing only to be released along with our more recognised ball players like Mulryne.

Hope you''ll be there cheering them on tonight. Lets hope we get another cracking atmosphere and a performance to live up to it

[ZLF 271]

[quote]Zipper Although we don''t agree on everything, its nice that someone on this forum is capable of reasoned debate instead of resulting to the usual ''I disagree, you''re an idiot'' approach that most seem...[/quote]

Happy to oblige rieg - hopefully the team will tonite too.  Am just about to leave for the game but will just add

 

1  Ignoring the prem stats we are still 8 defeats from 16 which is relegation form, in a league where our defence and strikers are as good as anyones.

3. My point is less about repromotion but the slide to a possible double relegation.  Holloway is right when he says we have lost the habit of winning (soon to be solved hopefully) and if few managers have got repromoted even fewer have been able to stop a slide for relegation which they started.

4.  I agree - but it has been too sporadic. 

A it more class and a bit less headless chickens tonite and hopefully we can geta  good result - unjustifiable pre match optimism coursing through my veins as I type..

 

OTBC