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a1canary

Racist taunts?

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Some good points being made here. I agree that it''s fun to call Rooney fat, it''s not right to racially abuse someone, etc etc.

What people are conveniently skating over is that SOMEONE THREW SOMETHING.

Next time it might be coins, lighters etc.

We may be a good-hearted club, but everything can change in time. Let''s stop this before it starts by reporting all throwing, as well as any dodgy chanting.

Oh, and Beelsie - if you can use the internet at 70 plus then you have my respect, cos I can hardly use it now!

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Yep, I reckon this post is getting very quarrelsome, especially over the finer points of political correctness.
At the end of the day Beelsie has made some very good points and I reckon the rest of you white b@stards should show the old b@stard some respect!!

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It''s obvious that people like Beelsie and I ( and I''m sure a few others ) are part of a dying breed and that, quite frankly, is sad. There is a reason that the term "supporters" exist. Otherwise we might call ourselves "detractors" or ''yobbos". I agree I have been away too long Morty but I can tell you on the few occasions when I have been to a soccer match during the past few years I can raise my volume with the best of them without resorting to bad language or the kind of abuse that apparently has become progressively more acceptable. As to getting into the 21st century the behaviour is moving closer towards what was demonstrated by morons during centuries gone by ( in stadiums where human sacrifice was the order of the day ) before civilization took hold. Based upon some of the responses I see here it leaves me wondering what people behave like in their own homes, particularly if children are present. Never mind how much money Wayne Rooney makes...it''s not about him. How would anyone of us feel at a game if he was our son and "football fans" are calling him a fat bastard or any other similar slur. It''s too easy in today''s world to write people like Beelsie off with the cliche of "morally superior". It never was an appropriate term, it''s about being morally smart if you want a world where people respect each other. And before people respond with comments calling this reaction over the top, I''ve no doubt that it is for some people.

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beesele - b@stard is no longer in the dictionary in the form u describe due to the amount of children now born to unmarried parents

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Guys,

I think we might be deviating from the matter in hand. I was there on saturday and cna say there was absolutely no racist chanting around me (upper tier nr the half way line), if there hand been i would have said something (and I would like to thing those around me would have) to the culprit.

However I''m a bit upset that already we are being tarred with the racsist brush! I am based in Sheffield and already I have had close friends enquiring and others who know me actually directing insults the way of norwich. I think its time the accusations were backed up by some evidence because I''m proud of supporting a club with virtually no hooligan/racist element.

TOm

P.S At least there was an FA Match Observer at the game, I''m sure that will mean that that referee never referees at the highest level again and that the upper tier is closed down - I can only imagine how unsafe having a concourse in the stand the width of a double decker bus must be!

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I cannot believe these racist remarks can be true. I can perhaps believe 1 person shouting it out and that is up to them if they want to get into trouble. But by the sound of things the report suggests a lot of people were singing/shouting this otherwise how could it of been heard? I believe us Norwich fans are better than this.

PS - How can the ''B'' word be changed? You cannot change a word because of society...it means what it means and always will. I am sick of people being frightened to speak because of minorities perhaps becoming offended.

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I''ve been attending Norwich games home and away since 1963. The Carrow Road crowd and football crowds in general are less abusive today than at anytime I can remember. 90% of the ground is like a ''family enclosure''. For Yankeecanary to say "the kind of abuse that apparently has become progressively more acceptable" is astonishingly ignorant of crowd attitudes and behaviour past and present.

If a football crowd chanted "you fat bastard" at my son, it wouldn''t bother me at all, him even less so. Why? Because I understand the context in which it was said. I understand that the degree of malice is zero. Its no different to "who''s the w***er in the black" which you I''m sure object to, whereas I find it amusing (not side splitting funny I grant you...), its football humour, its jest.

I go to a football ground understanding what to expect. I know I''m going to hear bad language, have to put up with annoying people around me (that I can''t move away from thanks to seating). I can of course taylor my ''tastes'' by choosing to sit in the areas of the ground that are suited to my character. If I want to have a few beers and a laugh with mates - there''s not much point sitting the River End. If like some I think Queen Victoria is still on the throne then the Snakepit is probably not for me. When going to away games, you accept its a lottery. I would not find certain behaviour that I enjoy acceptable in a different environment, but in a football ground, its fine. If Carrow Road suddenly became a hotbed of racism, or violent, I''d stop going. Simple.

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I''ve joined this debate rather late in the thread, but I feel as though I should say something!
First of all, I heard no racist chants, whatsoever. I did see the bottle thrown on the pitch, and, secretly, hoped that the perpetrator would be found, ejected, and, possibly, prosecuted. Even against Northampton in the Carling Cup, where we played like we weren''t there, and their ''keeper, within yards of us, was time-wasting to an extravagant degree, I''ve never witnessed anything like that.
So far as the other comments go, I have to ask what is wrong with a bit of passion in our support?
Perhaps some of the contributors to this argument might be better off at a rugby match? Or, maybe, tiddley-winks?
What about the support for the likes of Henman at Wimbledon. When his opponents make an error, it is greeted with cheers! Is that not unacceptable behaviour?
And, the recent darts finals. I saw somebody in the crowd with a sign saying, ''Taxi For Taylor''. Isn''t that, also, unacceptable?
And, Beelsie, did you ever take a gas rattle to games in days gone by? Wasn''t that off-putting to some players?
I also think some of our chants are hilarious. What about, ''Top of the League at Portman Road''. Is that out of order?
And, in reply to the Derby fans who took the micky out of our Premiership hopes, and then us going 3-1 up, ''Top of the League and we''re having a Laugh.'' Is that antagonistic?
And, what about Saturday, when the ref seemed to be biased towards Everton? ''The referee''s a Scouser''.
Come on. When was the last time you let your hair down and had a laugh?
Those players, out there, give 100%, and I, amongst thousands of other supporters, give those boys 100%. If it means intidimdating the opposition by jeering and catcalling, great! It makes Carrow Road an even more formiddable fortress! And clubs will know it when Norwich is on the road!

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Beelsie / Yankee

This has nothing to do with this argument in particular as everything that needs to be said has been said, but I am interested in your stance.

As you are both of an age where you witnessed (if not took part in) WW2. Did you ever witness a soldier, or yourself, call a German a "Kraut"? Did you report them to the officer in command? I thought not - I doubt you would have got far in those days.

I totally agree with the "Let''s kick racism out of football" campaign (although it mystifies me why the general topic only works one way). I am of the age where I can remember bananas being thrown onto the pitch and I''m sure none of us want to see that reoccur. Bearing in mind that the next game is against Bradford which has a distinctly ethnic population, City fans will have to be on their guard against the "You''re just a town full of..." chants.

However, for me, the whole PC thing gets right up my nose. Not being able to call someone ''fat'', ''old'', ''bald'', ''welsh'', ''scouse'', ''geordie'' etc etc in conjunction with some expletive/derogatory turn of phrase would remove so much of the atmosphere - and yes humour - of going to football in general. It''s not a modern thing - its human nature to goad the opposition. I can take being called a sheep-loving yokel just as much as Liverpudlian can be accussed of nicking hubcaps of any car parked for more than 30 seconds - its just life - and I take no offense at it.

If you think only football has this crude element to it then you obviously don''t know the actions to the Swing Low Sweet Chariot rugby song or indeed have been out with a rugby team on tour.

I for one have had enough of this nannying approach of authority, the fact that this thread has developed in the way it did shows what damage the thought police are doing to us.

I am a country boy at heart and my father used to be a part time gamekeeper. I never used to be that bothered about fox hunting as I used to see many dead foxes after them being shot/snared. However, now they''ve tried to ban it I have to say I''m distinctly pro fox hunting - not because I take part, agree with, or particularly enjoy the spectacle - it just I''m fed up with interference from people who think they know better.

Just wait, just as we''ve had with all seater stadia and the subsequent ''persistent standing'' issue which wouldn''t exist if we still had standing areas, after racism is kicked out (which it should be), then the call will come for no swearing, then no singing, then no team colours and finally non competitive matches - if you don''t believe me it already is happening in schools - its only a matter of time.

Enjoy it while you can - it might not be there forever!

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Sadly couldn''t make it to the match myself, but for me the question seems to be, if indeed the chant is seen to be "you fat bast**d" by the relevant authorities, whether the charge will simply be dropped. Afterall, however common the chant may be, it''s still a form of abuse aimed at an individual on the pitch, and if for this reason they may feel that they can''t simply back down. And... what kind of precedent would that set - zero tolerance?

I know it sounds a bit far fetched, but would be interesting to see if it panned out that way. My guess is they''ll attempt to side-step the issue in that circumstance and fine the club for the bottle thrown on the pitch.

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Reports this morning suggest that some people in the press box heard the chant. If that''s the case, they can only have heard a lot of people singing, in which case that can only mean they heard us singing ''fat'' rather than ''black''. Interesting though - I reckon they heard what they wanted to hear. Typical London journos, can''t wait to stick it to people without checking the facts. If it is proved that no racist chant was sung, let''s hope those journos reponsible will print it so. (like that''s ever going to happen)
As for the other stuff on this thread - slating people is a part of sport, always has been, always will, whether it''s player to player or supporter to player. It''s really not worth getting worked up about. It''s understandable that people find it objectionable, but I think footballers in particular waived all rights to our absolute respect many years ago when Jimmy Hill instigated breaking the wage cap. When we watch players who earn in a week more than we earn in a year call the referee a thoroughly unpleasant name just for giving a throw in to the opposition, you have to wonder why they expect us to like them. It''s all part of the envy/admiration culture that has been created in this country over the last few decades, and with footballers it''s worse because most of them come from backgrounds similar to our own, and but for their one, god-given talent, they''d be working next to us and getting pot bellies at the same age that we do. So it just makes us more envious when they behave like spoilt children, and our natural reaction is to treat them just like we would have done in the playground. Behave like a fool and get treated like a fool...

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Mook, thanks for the compliment if I can take it as such, one contributor wondered if i was wearing my tongue in cheek, judging by the different levels of objection to my efforts to make you lot nicer and more considerate, the advice might just be worth considering. There is a serious point to all of this though and Mook you have hit on it,it is, purely the steady deterioration what is accepted as good behaviour. It generally starts with rowdiness, moves then to verbal abuse, then racial abuse then we see the throwing of missiles of some sort or another on to the pitch, look to the time when some mindless lout wearing a football supporter scarf throws a live grenade on the pitch and says it was''nt my fault I was on drugs. Best wishes to all.
My last contribution on this thread, but the spoon is poised.

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Would I wind any one up!!? Mr Carrow, You are indeed right when you assume that Worthy and his team are chuffed to bits when they hear their supporters shouting them on, the louder the better, especially if they are shouts of encouragement for the team.
To shout encouragement is fully in order and to use your words and the fact that you did not join in the abuse of Mr Rooney as it was unecessary. It seems that you agree with my sentiments that it is not necessary to be abusive. I pick one line from one of my other critics on the board alluding to the Humpety Dumpety rhyme , Probably in the context of what was happening on the pitch this would have been a more appropriate comment to have made loudly to Mr Rooney and he I''m sure would have been more affected by it. Cheers!!!

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It is a biological necessity to have parents. Marriage is an invention for the management of off-spring in society. Whether the parents, in what ever guise, are fitting the offspring for society as we want it to be.
The fact that there are unmarried parents some of whom will bring them up properly and respectfully, others could not give a damn where their kids are. Especially when we look at the juvenile crime rate in an ever upward spiral due mostly to the lack or non existance of parential skills. Also the inability of adults to set an example of what is considered decent behaviour.

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Yankee! having read and agreed with much of the last effort of yours. While I read it a vision was conjoured up by the script and its implication to me, was seeing a man (you) in an arm chair relaxed and obviously at ease with himself, eyes closed. As in many cartoons there is for the subject matter a cloud gently rising above your slightly thinning pate'' In it I saw the front room or parlour of one of these loud abusive supporters he and five of his off spring were gathered around a three legged table. Through the window you could see outside his lady partner hanging football socks on the line, the telly in the room was on, they sat around with their boots on the table the floor was strewn with crisp packets, they all had yellow and green scarves on, the youngsters were aged between three and eleven, match of the day was on the box. Coke and beer cans were everywhere a full can had been thrown at the telly and a large crack had appeared and the screen had blacked out. Yankee! dear boy give me a caption for the event. Regards Beelsie

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Beelsie and Yankee Canary. What a condescending and puerile argument!
You seem to assign this to a certain generation, whereas, I assure you, this cuts right across the board. I know of many professional people who attend games and get as emotionally involved as scholars. Age has nothing to do with this. And neither does social background.
I would venture to suggest that you may have missed out on the opportunities to become involved in competetive sports yourselves, when younger!
Still (and apologies to those who DO get passionate down in that stand), you could always sit with your flask and sarnies, whilst wrapped in your tartan blanket, in the River End, moaning about the noise from those around you!

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yankee canary and beelsie can i suggest that you swap e-mail adresses so that you can correspond in private, you are both obviously far more intelligent and well adjusted than us bunch of football thugs that you paint in your bizarre whimsical little world, your posts have become more about whining about the youth of today than they have about football (evil game watched by yobbos)

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we also got them on the first day they came out LINDI, and they said the same, we where at the very back row s it was. we gonna complain i think u should to. cause later on they said on the ticket obstruced view cause we looked on the site straight after the game and it was still on there and a £1 cheaper

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Yankee Canary, I''m convinced that you''re a wind up, or worse a binman.
That old chestnut about Norwich and Ipswich merging has been going around for years, an urban myth if you will, so you''ll understand the fact that was one of your first contributions set alarm bells ringing.
I''ve no problem with Suffolk or its people, but as a Norwich supporter since I was old enough to stand up you''re having a laugh if you think I''m going to wish ITFC well.
If I''ve got you wrong then no hard feelings, but I smell a troll!

As for the main point of this thread, I''ve not heard racist abuse at Carrow Road for many years (since the dark days when it was sadly considered "acceptable")
I truly hope it didn''t happen at Goodison, and the vast majority of fans who post here who attended seem to confirm that.
The explanation I''ve heard sounds perfectly plausable.

Calling someone a "Fat Bastard" is not the same abusing someone racially.
Racial abuse has serious overtones and having witnessed real, violent racial abuse I agree with most posters that chants such as those Nowich stand accused of are unacceptable, in a football ground or anywhere else.

Several of my close mates might use "you fat bastard" that as an affectionate greeting, and accept it back in the same spirit.
Mebbe its a working class thing, but all the lads and lasses I''ve ever worked with at one time or another playfully taken the p*ss out of each other - relieves the bordom or the tension, provides a bit of light hearted entertainment.
Thats more what its like at football, its not vicious or an attack, its banter with the opposing fans, its a cheeky retort to a player behaving badly.
If you don''t get the banter then you don''t get football, imo.

Herb

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Herb, with repect to the last section of your message, I''m sure you believe what you wrote and no doubt, given a lot of the similar justifications used on this thread, many others would agree with you too. As a matter of fact, I agree with you that that particular salutation ( and similar ones ) used affectionately in greeting mates is normal and acceptable although it''s also acceptable to learn enough vocabulary that one can achieve similar results with nicer words.
However, to suggest that it is used in the same context at a football match is at best naive and at worst, foolhardy. I doubt there are many Norwich supporters who would just as freely utter the same words at a Millwall player at The Den or, even if they did so, without carefully looking over their shoulder first. This is the whole point. Many young people in today''s world are often looking for that kind of trouble, and when their elders set the example as an appropriate and normal standard you never know what may transpire. Surely there''s enough substantive material to work with to sing songs, roar your team on, shake rattles, blow horns etc. Pushing the envelope for good purposes is a good thing. When otherwise sensible people start to engage in borderline stuff it either gets misinterpreted ( as, hopefully, was the case at Everton ) or worse, violently reacted to. In past seasons when English clubs were banned from participating in Europe it didn''t happen because all English fans were of that ilk, it happened because the English football community failed to set tough and acceptable standards of conduct when some fans started to move the borders. I say again to Canary fans, take the high road. Be the role model for the rest of the country.

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I''ve sat back in my armchair (no pipe but yes slippers) having helped to raise the somewhat ambient temperature of this debate to listen to other more vocal supporters defend my case against Beelsie and "American" Canary (Please note that as I have American friends who object to the term "Y*nk" I am reluctant to use it).

However this debate has descended to far more puerile levels than the behaviour of those accused of trying to put off opposing players by using words such as "fat" or indeed "bastard". I am of mature years as the fact that I take my children would suggest, and yes I have had to prevent them from using words that I find unacceptable that they hear at football games or at school. However I also believe that (and I do use these words precisely) "morally superior" members of our society have hijacked our language and assume they know thought patterns when they criticise people''s shouts and chants at sporting events. The words bastard, fat, s***, pr*t and others like them are now part of the English language and widely used, whereas words like gay, minger, swivel and others now have new connotations. I would agree that words are acceptable to some and not others and I dare say that each of you do use words that I would find unacceptable.

There is no difference between the emotion of the rugby world cup final, a Tim Henman Davies Cup encounter, a pub darts match and the game at Goodison. All raise emotion levels and require passionate support and passionate performances if the right outcome is to be achieved. As such the whole point of me going to Goodison was to immerse myself in those emotions and enjoy the occassion. I care passionately about MY team and as I said previously if I as one of a crowd raise my team''s performance and put off the opposition will use abuse to do so as long as it isn''t racist or using unacceptable words. I am extremely pleased that we have put off one Kevin Muscat on his last two visits to Carrow Road and on the odd occassion a player "under fire" has been substituted.

The concept that I do struggle with is that those on high horses now probably abuse (with nice language?) our own players on a regular basis.

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I totaley agrey i think the news papers blew this out of text. Thay were short of storys and thort it would make good reading to pick on us norwich fans because we never get in trouble at other grounds. We were only doing what other fans would so they sould leave us alone and report on storys that should make the headlines. On the ball city!

Regards mr pot

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Your all blowing this outa proportion...

If you read here or there or everywhere everyone agree''s... its a mis-understanding!

so now let''s let the Blue B******d (sorry to the smurf''s... lol... comic book racism) get himself outa trouble.

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I''m a simple man, and there are many words on this thread that go wayyyy over my head. I blame the English teachers at Sprowston High School for not inspiring me enough to stay on for A levels. Except for Miss Butler.......she was very inspiring to me. But that''s another story.

Anyway, here''s my take on this racism business:

Norwich fans are not racist.

There is not a racism problem at our football club.

There was no organised and orchestrated racist chants of any kind at Everton.

There may well have been (in a crowd of 6,000) a few people who hold racist views. The law of averages will see to that. These people deserve nothing but our contempt, and if they are stupid enough to open their mouths and spout their vile hatred within our hearing, we all know what to do. The other 5,995 of us who were there should receive an immediate apology from the officials of Everton Football Club and the members of the press who have slandered the good name of Norwich City Football Club and it''s supporters. I won''t hold my breath waiting, though.

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Yeah i was there too - i think more of the insults should have gone to that ****** refree

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Beelsie, I didn`t join in with the Rooney chant because-and this may come as a surprise to you-I, like all vocal supporters, have a capacity for independent thought and in that particular situation i did not get as wound up by his antics as some of my fellow supporters.
I have however, sung abusive chants at Muscat (deserved),various referees during `dodgy` performances, former City players who have slated the club which trained and brought them through, and i feel a one for Everton`s safety officer would be most appropriate for the unnecessary damage he has caused. SOME abusive chants are unnecessary, but realistic football supporters accept that those supporters who get loudly+passionately behind their team sometimes get carried away. In fact,if you dont take things too seriously and no harm is done, getting a bit emotionally carried away can be really good fun! But then again, i guess it`s easier to sit quietly enjoying the fruits of other people`s efforts (ie. a good atmosphere), whilst poised ready to criticise at the first opportunity eh?

Regarding your `visions` post, maybe you should consider that forming negative preconceptions about people on the basis of very little evidence stems from exactly the same limited mental processes that produce racism. But as you seem so fond of it,maybe i should have a go.......

Imagine,folks, Carrow Road filled with 16,500 Beelsie`s......The slight rustle of thousands of warm blankets, an occasional `pop!` and gurgle when flasks of warm, unalcoholic beverage are opened and consumed, a smattering of polite applause for a good move or tackle, even perhaps, the odd `hurrah!` when a goal is sco....................ZZZZZZZZZZZ

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