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Doesn't this proposed state 'handout' go against what the rednecks object to ?

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Sorry, but I am not quite sure you understand the Swiss system, or our system.

The Swiss have directly elected representatives, as we do. And apportioning seats to the other two sections does not make for more representative system, it simply means more long winded 'horse trading'

If ukip had proportionally been awarded more seats would that mean more representation, or them simply being bought, as with the Unionists in 2017 ?

What you are proposing is merely a smaller part of the tail wagging the dog.

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I don't think you've understood the side-effects of our model at all as if people can't vote for the party they'd most prefer, they have to start doing a lot of trading off, and many voters are at this point. The Swiss do have directly elected representatives, however their populace is also far more empowered as they are, if they group up and a certain number of signatures is collected within specific time-frames, able to call a public initiative to referendum (100,000 signatures within 18 months) or being a law back to referendum (50,000 signatures within 90 days of a law entering the statute books).

The closest we'd have is the e-petition where 100,000 signatures merely means it goes to Parliament for debate and no more.

Our model is antiquated, useless, and not fit for purpose.

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err, no

what you are proposing is simply that voting against, be transferred to the elected chamber - where all too often the wishes of the voters are ignored... Libdems backing the Tories in 2010

similarly manifesto 'promises' are  ignored once in power, and other measures can be introduced that were not mentioned at election time

'(50,000 signatures within 90 days of a law entering the statute books).'

that is incorrect - what can be done is to propose an amendment, which still has to be voted on by the legislative - and then are in danger of 'playing to the gallery' as with brexit

Even then these popular votes are poorly participated in, which does not address the problem but merely underline what I have said

The problem is the low level of voter participation, and even understanding

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And all of that happens to a heck of an extent in our current model. Popular votes do indeed tend to have lower participation, but that's not always bad news in Switzerland simply as several referendums take place per year. So, if a referendum crops up on a topic where people are less interested, they are less likely to vote.

I'm afraid your comment re. proposing amendments when attempting to counter my call re. 50,000 signatures within 90 days may cause a law to be cancelled in referendum is a little askew. This is set out in Article 141 of the Swiss Constitution, link provided (in German) below. I did get the number of days wrong, as it was 100 and not 90.

https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classified-compilation/19995395/index.html#a141

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/switzerland-direct-democracy-explained/ (an explanation in English)

Now how many uninformed voters do you get in one-off referendums in countries that rarely hold them? I agree that low level of voter participation and understanding are major problems in the UK and US, certainly. The Swiss are pretty happy with their models though. Can't say that for the US or UK.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Bill said:

Doesn't this proposed state 'handout' go against what the rednecks object to ?

Not at all,  red necks only object when state handouts go to the “wrong” people..... I’ve mentioned it before but if you want to understand why poor whites vote for rich guys (or fight for slave owners back in the day) watch Mississippi burning and the story       Gene Hackman tells Daniel Defoe about his grandaddy poisoning his neighbor’s mule.

 

Edited by Surfer

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bill said:

 One old duffer on her even thought the government made law.... not Parliament 🙄

 

You need to use a spellchecker.

And Government Ministers do make law.  Rightly or wrongly a lot of people object to the Covid Regulations because they bypass Parliament.

Or i could use the past tense and say bypassed

 

Edited by Barbe bleu

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34 minutes ago, Bill said:

 

The problem is the low level of voter participation, and even understanding

Time to go compulsory voting?

Currently I don't have a vote as it seems my local council didn't receive the  re-registration forms  I sent in (living abroad, I think I have to do this yearly), but my constituency is overwhelmingly conservative, so there is little incentive for me to register anyway. I shall send in more forms regardless in due course 

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1 hour ago, Bill said:

No we haven't

In fact the way many would like to see the UK move, is actually towards the US college system

The main problem is (UK) not the system, but the involvement of voters,

I would love to know where you've picked up that idea from because I can honestly say that I've never heard anyone in the UK suggest any such thing.

Nor have I ever heard of even an opinion poll on the subject so I suspect that by 'many' you actually mean you and a couple of mates.

@TheGunnShow is spot on, the problem is our system (and the US system but that isn't our problem, that's their problem and they're welcome to it).

This isn't a new problem. its very a very long standing problem but it's come into the spotlight because of the very poor performance of our system and country through the crises of the last decade; the total failure of austerity economics, the shambles of Brexit and now the shockingly incompetent and deadly response to Covid 19 - it would be easy, and in many ways entirely reasonable to blame all these catstrophes on the Tory party but ultimately they are all the product of our dysfunctional 'system' - that is the real culprit.

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"In fact the way many would like to see the UK move, is actually towards the US college system

try reading it again, or maybe

would actually be a move towards the US college system

as what folk think, PR, is actually a 'slate' system where others chose who your representatives are.... as with the US college system

Sadly your conclusions then follow another similar path of misunderstanding, that being if the electoral system was changed all would be solved - the 2010 coalition which was 5 years of that austerity easily refutes that

both your ideas and compulsory voting are a good part of the problem, rather than the solution

getting voters to think is the problem, rather than getting them to vote or how to juggle those votes

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15 hours ago, Herman said:

If you want to start a thread about China and its disgusting behaviour then go ahead. If you just want to distract attention away from your utter failure of a president we've already seen through it. Grandad.

You lost

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11 hours ago, Herman said:

You have a sad outlook if upseting people on the internet is the only joy you get out of life.

If you are getting upset, Herman, step away.  

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7 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

They're enabled due to said atrocious system that is a century out of date. We've got the same fundamental problem in the UK.

First-past-the-post voting is fit for one thing only, namely the scrapheap.

Yawn. Losers gonna lose. 

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6 hours ago, SHRIMPER said:

Just watching Brian Stelter on CNN talking about the Alt rightwing talk radio shows. How are they allowed to get away with such garbage?

Nobody is forcing you to listen are they? There's an off switch on your wireless or just spin the dial to a different station if you don't like it.  It ain't that difficult. 

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3 hours ago, Bill said:

No we haven't

In fact the way many would like to see the UK move, is actually towards the US college system

The main problem is (UK) not the system, but the involvement of voters,

Who raised a peep when Tories cheered in Parliament because nurses wages were not to rise - or protested when the sun demanded striking junior doctors be jailed ?

How man UK voters actually know (or care) how the 2nd chamber (Lords) worked. One old duffer on her even thought the government made law.... not Parliament 🙄

How many supported the governments attempt to block the lawful democratic process - which subsequently required the judiciary to uphold that sanctity

Education of the voting system, not eradication.

Yeah, the problem is too many people voted Conservative, the twats 

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4 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

So Microsoft, Amazon, Paypal are not keeping and passing on your information?

Naive, thick, dummy, pavlov's dog. Which one or all do you fit perfectly?

Has 3G reached Cornwall yet?

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I would love to know where you've picked up that idea from because I can honestly say that I've never heard anyone in the UK suggest any such thing.

Nor have I ever heard of even an opinion poll on the subject so I suspect that by 'many' you actually mean you and a couple of mates.

@TheGunnShow

Me neither, CM. I am not sure how the US electoral college system would work in the UK but I imagine that since two of the last five US presidential elections have seen a candidate lose the popular vote but become president  through the electoral college there is more chance of the US dropping what looks from the outside like an anomaly than the UK taking it up.

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7 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

Obama lives rent free in Trumps head. 😀

Nah, Obama lives in a $17m mansion in Martha's Vintage. He didn't have that much money when he became President, it's a heck of a lot of speech making to get $17m and more. 

And why would a clown who believes in global warming buy a beach side property? Clowns gotta clown, I guess 

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1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

Me neither, CM. I am not sure how the US electoral college system would work in the UK but I imagine that since two of the last five US presidential elections have seen a candidate lose the popular vote but become president  through the electoral college there is more chance of the US dropping what looks from the outside like an anomaly than the UK taking it up.

As it was never claimed. nor has there been any claim that the US college system would be adopted by the UK

so if you could leave the 'making up of stuff' to RTBBhandcrank it would help us all

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6 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Nah, Obama lives in a $17m mansion in Martha's Vintage. He didn't have that much money when he became President, it's a heck of a lot of speech making to get $17m and more. 

And why would a clown who believes in global warming buy a beach side property? Clowns gotta clown, I guess 

He bankrupted a casino to pay for it? No, someone else.

He set up a fraudulent university to pay for it? No, someone else.

He sells a lot of Chinese made toot to pay for it? No, someone else.

He plunders his charity to pay for it? No, someone else.

He plunders his election fund to pay for it? No, someone else.

 

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8 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Nobody is forcing you to listen are they? There's an off switch on your wireless or just spin the dial to a different station if you don't like it.  It ain't that difficult. 

You really are a thick cvnt RTB aint ya. I said I was watching Stelter and he played a couple of radio clips taken from your favorite Alt right radio stations no doubt. Having worked in the states and heard the garbage I would not give yank radio a second of my time. Get back under your rock slimeball.

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10 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Nah, Obama lives in a $17m mansion in Martha's Vintage. He didn't have that much money when he became President, it's a heck of a lot of speech making to get $17m and more. 

And why would a clown who believes in global warming buy a beach side property? Clowns gotta clown, I guess 

Obama lives rent free inside RTBs head. 😁

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RTB learnt a new phrase today, loser. Five letters and two syllables, he is improving. Up to now it has been Fraj and Rump.

He cannot accept his darlings have fcuked up the US and UK and are left to diverting attention away from anything but them.

Trading off pubs for Schools? What the hell is that?

Trump embarrassment as US President confesses ‘dream’ of being on Mount Rushmore 😂

3G is good RTB, it slows you down and makes you think before you act.

And don't come crying to us in Cornwall because you need lithium for your batteries. You ain't getting any. We are going to be selective like your mob

 

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"in 2018 that Mr Trump mentioned adding his face to the monument was his “dream”"

and mine

his orange face, and absurd bouffant would like perfect splattered all over the mountain

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