5 good reasons to stay in EU

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

farmers subsidies are safe in the EU, the Tory''s have gone all coy on what they will replace it with to make our goods competitive on the world market.VAT, an EU tax initially, will not be rescinded should the macabre thing happen that we vote out, Osborne had to borrow again last month as his corporation tax came in below the expected, so much for playing the tax card, treasury, stop pandering to tax evasion.Now to your point about democracy Paul Moy, the greatest laugh I have had this morning. FPTP is riddled with fraud, postal voting is used as a campaigns tool these days, the result is always disproportional to those who voted and all others are disenfranchised due to the pandering to political party members. Most of Europe''s democracies have proportionally represented systems, some AMS and others STV, both systems vastly superior to what we call democracy.but thanks for the laugh. The problem was always the party political complacency on all things Europe, the fact that nobody wanted to get in there and work it to the better, not sit on the fence and snipe, it is a partnership in dire need of reform, but to achieve it you have to be in there, not shout from the sidelines.The appointed commissioners should be elected, lobbying should be strictly controlled, the CAP scraped and replaced with a sustainable agricultural policy taking account of the impact we create. The EU''s books must be audited it is untenable to be financially unaccountable. The EU must wake up to its inherent racism as well and it should expect reciprocate actions abroad. Why should we be safe travelling through Africa, when Africans are not safe sitting in their accommodation in Germany/ Hungary/ France/ watching TV.Finally, if the United Nation and Human rights are not relevant for you Paul, when disabled people are worried sick and take their own life because of party politicians and their Victorian mindset, when old people are sent back home, unable to cope after traumatic surgery, when young people commit suicide because they can''t see a future without adequate GCSE grades, then your idea of ''out'' is leading the UK into a fascist regime which would do anything to safeguard the status quo of the establishment.vote to remain, Paul, and get in there.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Something corresponding words and pictures, the words are by Stephen Evans the North Korea correspondent, from a march in Pyongyang, and the footage is our usual annual trooping of the colours. just to lighten up this embarrassing referendum débâcle.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtk0OqW7sx0

[paul moy 235]

Nevermind, it''s the EU that is undemocratic, not the constituent states so your argument is totally flawed. The unelected European Commission passes the laws and basically the parliament rubberstamps them just as our current House of Lords do. The EU Parliament does not make law and cannot reverse law.

Democracy in the EU is similar to that in China. It you want to remain you will deserve what you get.

Farming subsidies will remain and we will have much more money left over to spend on other things also due to the fact that we pay in a lot more than we get back.

Also, we save even more long-term by coming out as our contributions would increase based on our GDP. Last year we were surcharged for an extra 2 Billion because our economy is superior in annual GDP growth to other EU states.

[Herman 9,756]

Yes,[url]http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/misleading-eu-referendum-campaigns-treasury-select-committee-report[/url]but,[url]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/26/eu-debate-enlightenment-historians[/url]

[SwindonCanary 455]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbEZNhFY9TA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCXDHYpINdc

[Herman 9,756]

Even Delia is getting involved. Talking sense.[url]http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/the-daily-scare-tactics-beggar-belief-theyre-not-working[/url]

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Herman "]Even Delia is getting involved. Talking sense.[url]http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/the-daily-scare-tactics-beggar-belief-theyre-not-working[/url][/quote]I was just about to post that it would be for the best if attenttion wasn''t drawn to a certain article in today''s Guardian, because Paul Moy, for one, would probably spontaneously combust,[:@] but that is moot now...

[Herman 9,756]

Some spontaneous combustion wouldn''t go amiss[:D]

[Herman 9,756]

[url]http://www.anothereurope.org/[/url]

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

I tell you what is really hilarious, Nevermind, and that is watching an old leftie like yourself owning up to voting to remain in europe!

You know, the europe set up by the corporate banksters and crony capitalists that you rail against in every other thread on this message board.

The protectionist and cartel-loving organisation that keeps the exports of poor African, Asian and South American countries out of the European markets.

The europe that has squeezed national sovereignty and democracy, the will of the people, from its member states and turned them into supplicants at the feet of Germany.

Of course, you can put aside your leftie principles because it would mean getting into bed with the likes of UKIP and Nigel Farage, and while you have no problem sympathising with Hamas and Hezbollah, god forbid you having to cozy up to Farage and his petit bourgeois followers, eh?

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Gosh what a load of more rubbish from rock the punt. Can you tell me anything that was not set up by bankers?The origins of the EU lies in the European Coal and Steel Community, ECSC, and the statutes of Rome were the founding principles. That it was never reformed is down to its member states and it has become an organisation that does the bidding for finance and commerce. Unelected Commissioners are the problem and its rotating leadership is nothing but unwieldy.If the UK wouldn''t have sat on the fence, joined from the start and done more than pull splinters out of its backside, its could have developed much different.Now that the crooks and bankers in the city of |London Corp can feel the heat of a Frankfurt regulation that would tax financial transactions they want out, regardless if that splits their puppet regime of Bozo and David, regardless what happens.If these tax evaders get their will on the 23rd this month, and with your help, no doubt, Farage/Cameron and the rest of the right wing ilk will implement the fascist TTIP faster than you can count to three. I have not one vote, but five. People who are totally turned off by this party political slanging match have offered to vote whatever I choose, because they find it odd that EU citizens have no say on their future here.And if the vote does not go your way and we stay in the EU, I expect this Government to do its best to provide you with the best deal possible, if they can be ar.ed to that is. It is about time that the UK plays its full part for the money it pays, none of this pick and choose anymore, I mean for that money you deserve to house at least 130.000refugees, I''m sure those 0.6% opf large millionaire landowners here who would just love to Brexit yesterday will understand if we steal some of their stolen land bhack, don''t you think, Rock the punt?And I don''t ever want to hear of this scam Farage and his kippers once people voted to remain, misleading people and making them hope that a UK on its own would be able to make ends meet, their mission of the last 15 years would have failed.Now don''t forget to vote, punt master

[paul moy 235]

So Nevermind, you really cannot understand why the future of the UK will only be determined by UK citizens and not EU citizens whose numbers we desperately need to control for the sake of our NHS, schools, welfare etc ?

So many people seem oblivious to the dangers to our culture, infrastructure and standards of living due to totally unfettered immigration which will be forever while we are in the EU.

When do we say we are full up ? We are soon to be the most populated country in the EU by square kilometre, currently being second to the Nertherlands. It simply cannot be allowed to go on uncontrolled for ever or there will be civil uprising.

Vote LEAVE !!

[Herman 9,756]

Sorry Paul, but Commonwealth citizens,the Irish and ex-pats are allowed to vote as well.

[paul moy 235]

Yes Herman I am well aware of that and there are logical reasons but not all expats qualify due to a 15 year rule.

There are no logical reasons for EU citizens getting a vote though. Those that have worked here for more than five years should have applied for citizenship if they wanted voting rights.

[paul moy 235]

Brilliant arguments by a Czech student, Jan at Oxford University debate why it is best for the EU and Britain that we leave.

Listen to the final 10 minutes or so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eohm9t4-F9g

[Herman 9,756]

An American, an Indian, a German and a Pob telling us how bad immigration is and how they would sort it out. Sadly ironic really.

[paul moy 235]

Jan''s main points about the EU being the slowest growing trading bloc in the world are true. As he says, coming out would be a major boost to the UK as it would then be free to trade with all of the growing countries of the world.

For instance, we are held back as he says from making a trade deal with India as Italy will not allow it in order to protect it''s expensive garment trade. The smaller the country the easier it is to make a deal, as Iceland have proven with their deal with China. The EU has failed for decades to do deals with the US and China due to narrow vested interests.

Vote LEAVE !!

[Rock The Boat 1,330]

Sorry Nevermind but your arguments are all over the place and run contradictory to almost everything you have written in this sub-forum over the past few years.

Let''s take a look at some of the things you have said.

Nevermind>> farmers subsidies are safe in the EU

So you are happy that this EU cartel that runs protectionist policies for industries such as agriculture, thereby preventing African countries, for example, from exporting produce to the rich West on an even playing field. It is EU potectionism that keeps third-world counries poor, and yet you support it through your support of the EU.

Nevermind>> It is a partnership in dire need of reform, but to achieve it you have to be in there, not shout from the sidelines.

The EU has no intention of reforming itself along the lines that the UK government wishes to see. On the contrary, the mantra is ever-deeper union between the EU states. As you well know, whenever there is a new European crisis, such as the near collapse of Greece, or the flooding of Europe with immigrants then the EU always says the solution is more and not less integration.

Do you remember Cameron''s negotiations for UK concessions and reforms? He got absolutely nothing. He knows it and has kept quiet about his non-achievements during this In-Out debate. The EU simply does not wish to reform in any meaningful manner.

Nevermind>> Why should we be safe travelling through Africa, when Africans are not safe sitting in their accommodation in Germany/ Hungary/ France/ watching TV.

Umm, what are Africans doing in Germany in the first place? If they are asylum seekers then they must have travelled through a fair few countries to get to Germany/Hungary/France. But what your comment is really saying is why should German women feel safe going about their daily life when here are Africans not safe sitting in their German accommodation. Back in January you were an apologist for the African rapists and sex offenders and I see you still are several months on.

Nevermind>> when old people are sent back home, unable to cope after traumatic surgery, when young people commit suicide because they can''t see a future without adequate GCSE grades

And you don''t think that the levels of unregulated and uncontrolled immigration has some bearing on schools, hospitals and social housing? Have you not considered that allowing hundreds of thousands of unskilled workers into this country takes away employment from those on the lower rungs of our society? School leavers and British low skilled workers are the ones who suffer the most and yet you the leftie, seem not to care about British working class folks just so long as the immigrants are mollycoddled.

Nevermind>> then your idea of ''out'' is leading the UK into a fascist regime which would do anything to safeguard the status quo of the establishment.

My dear chap, the whole point of Brexit is about completely changing the status quo. The EU is the fascist regime here because its leaders are unelected by the sovereign people, and the laws it passes are not put up for examination by the people''s representatives. The EU leaders are not accountable to the people of Europe but to the Banksters and Corporations that you profess to hate. You are totally contradictory.

Nevermind>> That it was never reformed is down to its member states and it has become an organisation that does the bidding for finance and commerce

Exactly. The Banksters. And you are still going to vote to remain!

Nevermind>>People who are totally turned off by this party political slanging match have offered to vote whatever I choose

It isn''t party politics. The referendum debate runs across all parties in all directions. Two late politicians of the last century Tony Benn and Enoch Powell were at opposite ends of the political spectrum as far as you could get. Both were great political thinkers whether you agreed with them or not. And yet both were against the UK''s membership of the EU on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy.

This debate isn''t about whether you are a tory or a labour supporter or something else. If you think that then you have a very narrow understanding of what the debate is about and what it means for the future generations to come.

[Jools 584]

[quote user="Rock The Boat"]Sorry Nevermind but your arguments are all over the place and run contradictory to almost everything you have written in this sub-forum over the past few years.

Let''s take a look at some of the things you have said.

Nevermind>> farmers subsidies are safe in the EU

So you are happy that this EU cartel that runs protectionist policies for industries such as agriculture, thereby preventing African countries, for example, from exporting produce to the rich West on an even playing field. It is EU potectionism that keeps third-world counries poor, and yet you support it through your support of the EU.

Nevermind>> It is a partnership in dire need of reform, but to achieve it you have to be in there, not shout from the sidelines.

The EU has no intention of reforming itself along the lines that the UK government wishes to see. On the contrary, the mantra is ever-deeper union between the EU states. As you well know, whenever there is a new European crisis, such as the near collapse of Greece, or the flooding of Europe with immigrants then the EU always says the solution is more and not less integration.

Do you remember Cameron''s negotiations for UK concessions and reforms? He got absolutely nothing. He knows it and has kept quiet about his non-achievements during this In-Out debate. The EU simply does not wish to reform in any meaningful manner.

Nevermind>> Why should we be safe travelling through Africa, when Africans are not safe sitting in their accommodation in Germany/ Hungary/ France/ watching TV.

Umm, what are Africans doing in Germany in the first place? If they are asylum seekers then they must have travelled through a fair few countries to get to Germany/Hungary/France. But what your comment is really saying is why should German women feel safe going about their daily life when here are Africans not safe sitting in their German accommodation. Back in January you were an apologist for the African rapists and sex offenders and I see you still are several months on.

Nevermind>> when old people are sent back home, unable to cope after traumatic surgery, when young people commit suicide because they can''t see a future without adequate GCSE grades

And you don''t think that the levels of unregulated and uncontrolled immigration has some bearing on schools, hospitals and social housing? Have you not considered that allowing hundreds of thousands of unskilled workers into this country takes away employment from those on the lower rungs of our society? School leavers and British low skilled workers are the ones who suffer the most and yet you the leftie, seem not to care about British working class folks just so long as the immigrants are mollycoddled.

Nevermind>> then your idea of ''out'' is leading the UK into a fascist regime which would do anything to safeguard the status quo of the establishment.

My dear chap, the whole point of Brexit is about completely changing the status quo. The EU is the fascist regime here because its leaders are unelected by the sovereign people, and the laws it passes are not put up for examination by the people''s representatives. The EU leaders are not accountable to the people of Europe but to the Banksters and Corporations that you profess to hate. You are totally contradictory.

Nevermind>> That it was never reformed is down to its member states and it has become an organisation that does the bidding for finance and commerce

Exactly. The Banksters. And you are still going to vote to remain!

Nevermind>>People who are totally turned off by this party political slanging match have offered to vote whatever I choose

It isn''t party politics. The referendum debate runs across all parties in all directions. Two late politicians of the last century Tony Benn and Enoch Powell were at opposite ends of the political spectrum as far as you could get. Both were great political thinkers whether you agreed with them or not. And yet both were against the UK''s membership of the EU on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy.

This debate isn''t about whether you are a tory or a labour supporter or something else. If you think that then you have a very narrow understanding of what the debate is about and what it means for the future generations to come.[/quote]Top reply addressing the hypocrisy of Nevermind''s posts RtB [Y]Did you watch that b*llocks on Sky News last night?

To Cameron the single market is God: he thinks that love of money is

the root of all happiness and that if jobs are lost, the health system

crumbles, wages are driven down and workers'' rights are diluted then

that''s worth the price of belonging to it. He and all of his

establishment cronies only see the world from their oak-pannelled ivory

towers - they don''t feel the anxiety, hopelessness and despair of

British workers sold out by a political class that was meant to protect

them.

Britain is burning under the obscene levels of immigration

and what does the political class do - pours more petrol onto the fire.

In the words of the Stranglers - something better change.

Let''s start by voting OUT [Y]

[Herman 9,756]

Michael Gove on immigration. That''s what some of you want, isn''t it??He says:  "I think it is wrong that any one of the

450 million citizens of the EU can be at the front of the queue and come

here automatically when there are people with countries with which we

have ties like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh and nations of the Caribbean, who

cannot come here in the same way and I think that is discriminatory and

by leaving we could have a policy that works in the interests of

everyone in this country."

[Herman 9,756]

The Man In Grey strikes. Pretty accurate to be fair.[url]http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-major-nhs-risk-brexit-pythons-johnson-and-gove[/url]

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="Herman "]Michael Gove on immigration. That''s what some of you want, isn''t it??He says:  "I think it is wrong that any one of the

450 million citizens of the EU can be at the front of the queue and come

here automatically when there are people with countries with which we

have ties like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh and nations of the Caribbean, who

cannot come here in the same way and I think that is discriminatory and

by leaving we could have a policy that works in the interests of

everyone in this country."

[/quote]

test...ignore

[Badger 2,405]

[quote user="Herman "]The Man In Grey strikes. Pretty accurate to be fair.[url]http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-major-nhs-risk-brexit-pythons-johnson-and-gove[/url][/quote]

Well done John

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Once again you have out words into my mouth, just like a party politician would.If you believe that this is a wide ranking debate that is not focussed on party politics then you are blind and deaf.You have no plan whatsoever, all your brexit lot is standing for is a split Tory party going begging to garner Farages worst policies, putting another hobnail into the boots.I have never said that the EU does not need reform, indeed I have pointed to the CAP, the Commission and fisheries policy.You are living in the past boar, Tony Benn was a toff, his brother is a new labour Tory and the grandieur you assign to Enoch Powell give you away for what you really are.You see you are all negative and no trousers to show for. The EU is reformable if your party politicians get away from their back handers and vested personal interest and start representing people, in the centre of the EU, were our real interests lie.If you call me a rapist apologist you would not mind me calling you and unrepentend racist scum now would you, cause that/s what you have shown here to be, a man who loves himself more than the image he sees in the mirror and who wants strife disruption and chaos for his children.well I for one hope you have not got any.The collapse of Greece was due to the fact that they were not ready to join, now they are suffering from the continuation of the sanctions against Russia, not that you care, the good fruit rotting away because some right wing idiots think they can bowl over Russia. Another reason to get stronger in Europe and get away from a rogue expansionary NATO which is ignoring its own aims and objective.How do I know? 8 years of air force have taught me.I''m not even to answer your immigration jibe because you are not up to date, some 400.000 immigrants were largely responsble for the jobs rise during the last half year, they are all paying more taxes than you and keeping this mismanaged economy afloat.What do you think you can get from a fracked out US,  with a society that sells arms to nay mentally ill person who wants one, deluded to think that it rules the world? Or  maybe a hop along Australia?Fact is that this country will stay in, Scotland Ireland and NI will ensure that the rabid right here will be cancelled out.Now you can go back to polishing boots for your establishment masters and City gents, those few bankers who have been managing their taxes past the exchequer into tax havens and do not want to be accountable to EU financial regulations.I will be voting to remain, cause my children want to study in a proper university for an year, but then you never heard of the Erasmus program have you.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,187]

This was an interesting thread 

Particularly the OP

And I thought Jools was Shyster, but here they appear to be different accounts?

[Bill 1,788]

On 23/10/2015 at 20:07, ricardo said:

Genuine thanks for that Ricardo. An interesting article that doesn''t have the scent of xenophobia to it.

It seems that there are economic advantages and disadvantages whatever we decide.For me personally it comes down to what price we put on being masters of our own destiny.

yes, we won't have those foreign johnnies telling us what customs forms we have to have, or the schedules we will use to trade under WTO rules

and there certainly won't be an EU monitored border down  any part of sovereign UK

why, we can ever decide when we want to call an election, set our own tax rates, criminal law, planning laws, transport law, schools,  etc.... none of which we can do now

as Mr Farage constantly informs us

yes, bring back bonfire night, Xmas, FA Cup final at 3pm, all currently banned by the EU

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

Bit surreal re-reading some of these old posts - like this one which seemed entirely reasonable at the time:

On 22/10/2015 at 22:20, ricardo said:

There are plenty of counter arguments.http://www.federaljack.com/ebooks/eu%20truth/50reasons.pdf

You pay your money and take your choice.

Now of course we know that it was the Russians that paid the money and made the choice for us.....

 

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Creative Midfielder

[ricardo 7,385]

44 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Bit surreal re-reading some of these old posts - like this one which seemed entirely reasonable at the time:

Now of course we know that it was the Russians that paid the money and made the choice for us.....

 

 

Yes, they broke all the pencils down at our polling station.

[Bill 1,788]

8 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Yes, they broke all the pencils down at our polling station.

errr.........which would have affected both sides 🥴

 

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

22 hours ago, ricardo said:

Yes, they broke all the pencils down at our polling station.

I don't doubt it, they'll stop at nothing to do us down......