Ukraine Protests

[Joanna Grey 0]

"...and the real story behind the MH17 downing is now coming out, i.e. that a military plane has shot it out of the sky."

Did you actually read the report you linked to?

The Dutch Prosecutors are willing to entertain the idea that the airliner was shot down by a military aircraft IF the Russians supply them with the radar evidence.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Gosh JG, you can be so naive when you want to be. Do you really believe that its only the Russians that have this evidence? that western satellites and Ukrainian records have never existed? Has Westerbeke asked Kiev for its recorded radar recording of that day, are they all available? Has he asked the NSA for their satellite records?And do you know that we are living in the most spied upon times ever?

[Joanna Grey 0]

I like to think that I am prepared to listen to all sides of the story.

You, on the other hand, are extremely blinkered and nearly always wrong in your views and assumptions.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

You like to think that and then make another assumption about me. I have written letters to say that I''m wrong and I have apologised when I was wrong, all my life, an essential part of learning from one''s mistake.I have never heard you say sorry or apologise JG, so don''t come over all high and mighty.

[Joanna Grey 0]

Because I never had to, not on this forum anyway.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

stunningly perfect, you''re trying to make us laugh here?

[Joanna Grey 0]

Of course.

I''m perfect.

You''re deluded.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

you on the other hand are a troll, JG, however perfect you may see yourself.Today was election day in the Dombass region. A few diverse voices about the latest accord here on this bloghttps://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4046811478707691837&postID=4127079878717035476

[Joanna Grey 0]

Not a troll, just a voice of the real people.

[Herman 9,710]

So is the Daily Mail.

[Joanna Grey 0]

The Daily Mail has an agenda but I''m not quite sure what is.

If it was truly as right wing as many people believe then it would not leave so many pertinent details out of it''s reports.

[JB 0]

The Daily Mail reminds me of Boris Johnson, desperately trying to be all things to all men but fooling nobody.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

all the newspapers are behind the real newsline, late or ignorant of what matters. Everyone of our western politicians praised the Ukrainian elections and what it means for them, all totally missing the point.Europe is bending over and dragging its knuckles along more and more, the more Nazi''s appear on the horizon the better for the west it seems. The right wing neo cons are now in charge of both, senate and House, in America, whilst the Ukraine is bust, having to ask Germany to pay their gas bills, the economy in tatters as everything points to an all out war in the east, this time Putin will intervene.Ukraine has been brought to its knees by this power struggle, MP''s are being beaten up and chucked into bins, Svoboda and right sector fascists are in control of security and the home office crating one chaotic situation after the other.Our politicians won''t have none of it, they are not dying there, but Ukrainianshttp://dissidentvoice.org/2014/11/ukraine-elections-bring-society-closer-to-brink-of-all-out-war-and-economic-collapse/

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Two days of NATO threats and intimidation, we really should have disbanded it after the cold war was over, it has turned into an aggressive organisation doing USUKIS bidding. It has turned Libya into a chaotic undemocratic country ruled by gangs and militias.Ukraine''s latest election is not even dry on paper and the killing and harassment of civilians who dare to agree with the Donetzk free autonomous area.And US satelite pictures have been made public now, not by them but by Russia and the Mirror. I would have thought some of the mirror readers here would have published this evidence of airliner MH17 being shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet, but here it is anyway.Maybe the person starting this thread would like to comment on this atrocity?http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russia-claims-satellite-image-shows-4631625

[ricardo 7,339]

[quote user="nevermind"]Two days of NATO threats and intimidation, we really should have disbanded it after the cold war was over, it has turned into an aggressive organisation doing USUKIS bidding. It has turned Libya into a chaotic undemocratic country ruled by gangs and militias.

[/quote]You mean as opposed to the beacon of democracy and rule of law that it enjoyed under Ghadaffi?

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

The people of Libya are now living in fear of violent gangs and militias and I really do not want to debate the British Governments steadfast relationship with Moussa Koussa and Ghadaffi here, what I do know that he had control over its people. So if he was that bad, how come he was not put in front of a court but massacred in the most violent way.NATO does not stand for anything anymore, it has become a violent ruthless organisation hell bent on expanding its influence sphere, pressuring other states into uncontrolled change.Ukraine has been maligned by western intentions and the Iraq war was down to bare faced lie. The letter below comes from an Iraq veteran, age 34, who died last week, and is directed to Bush and Cheney, but Blair and Jack Straw should also be added to this list.

‘Tomas Young’s Last Letter to Bush, Cheney

by Ralph Nader / November 15th, 2014

The courageous journey of seriously wounded Iraq War veteran, Tomas

Young, ended this past Monday, nearly eleven years after he was ambushed

in a wholly exposed military truck. He passed away in Seattle while

being lovingly cared for by his wife Claudia.

Tomas did not go quietly, despite his being paralyzed from the chest

down, excruciating pain, comas and reliance on caregivers. He became an

anti-war peace activist, addressing convocations and responding to as

many interview requests as his agonized condition could tolerate.

I write this letter on behalf of husbands and wives who

have lost spouses, on behalf of children who have lost a parent, on

behalf of the fathers and mothers who have lost sons and daughters and

on behalf of those who care for the many thousands of my fellow veterans

who have brain injuries… I write this letter on behalf of the some 1

million Iraqi dead and on behalf of the countless Iraqi wounded. I write

this letter on behalf of us all—the human detritus your war has left

behind, those who will spend their lives in unending pain and grief.

I write this letter, my last letter, to you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney.

I write not because I think you grasp the terrible human and moral

consequences of your lies, manipulation and thirst for wealth and power.

I write this letter because…I want to make it clear that I, and

hundreds of thousands of my fellow veterans, along with millions of my

fellow citizens, along with hundreds of millions more in Iraq and the

Middle East, know fully who you are and what you have done. You may

evade justice but in our eyes you are each guilty of egregious war

crimes, of plunder and, finally, of murder, including the murder of

thousands of young Americans—my fellow veterans—whose future you stole.

Your positions of authority, your millions of dollars of personal

wealth, your public relations consultants, your privilege and your power

cannot mask the hollowness of your character. You sent us to fight and

die in Iraq after you, Mr. Cheney, dodged the draft in Vietnam, and you,

Mr. Bush, went AWOL from your National Guard unit. Your cowardice and

selfishness were established decades ago…you sent hundreds of thousands

of young men and women to be sacrificed in a senseless war with no more

thought than it takes to put out the garbage.

I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks… I wanted to strike

back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I did

not join the Army to go to Iraq, a country that had no part in the

September 2001 attacks and did not pose a threat to its neighbors, much

less to the United States. I did not join the Army to “liberate” Iraqis

or to shut down mythical weapons-of-mass-destruction facilities or to

implant what you cynically called “democracy” in Baghdad and the Middle

East…I especially did not join the Army to carry out pre-emptive war.

Pre-emptive war is illegal under international law. And as a soldier in

Iraq I was, I now know, abetting your idiocy and your crimes. The Iraq

War is the largest strategic blunder in U.S. history…I would not be

writing this letter if I had been wounded fighting in Afghanistan

against those forces that carried out the attacks of 9/11…We were used.

We were betrayed. And we have been abandoned. You, Mr. Bush, make much

pretense of being a Christian. But isn’t lying a sin? Isn’t murder a

sin? Aren’t theft and selfish ambition sins?…

My day of reckoning is upon me. Yours will come. I hope you will be

put on trial. But mostly I hope, for your sakes, that you find the moral

courage to face what you have done to me and to many, many others who

deserved to live. I hope that before your time on earth ends, as mine is

now ending, you will find the strength of character to stand before the

American public and the world, and in particular the Iraqi people, and

beg for forgiveness.’

http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/11/tomas-youngs-last-letter-to-bush-cheney/

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

For all those who dream of the succession of Ukraine into the EU, some who don''t want to ber in it themselves, but that should not stop them to wish ill health on others. A great piece by Justin Raymondo. Beware of what you wish for.""Their children will hole up in basements!" screeched

Ukrainian "President" Poroshenko, the oligarch and "Chocolate

King." "This is how we will win this war!" He was talking about

the children of the people of East Ukraine, whose cities are being bombed from

the air by the US-supported Ukrainian military. Thousands have been killed,

mostly civilians: Ukraine’s war on its own people has displaced nearly a million

people. Many have fled to neighboring Russia, while a little under half a million

are classified as internally displaced

refugees. The Ukrainian military, which claims to be fighting "terrorists,"

is using

cluster bombs – weapons that are banned in the civilized world, but freely

used by Ukraine’s military, which includes the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion...."

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/11/18/stay-away-from-kiev/

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Nobody in Europe is now demanding that the EU opens its arms to Ukainian membership and Kiev is planning a false flag nuclear attack which will give the signal for NATO''s mongers to jump in and act up.Those who might have thought the boys in blue up above are training to get their duty flights in might be very wrong, we are planning to attack Russia.That will save Camerons establishment backside somewhat as he then can cancel next years election due to being ''busy''.Anybody fancy moving to NZ.... fast....http://www.globalresearch.ca/kiev-anti-russian-false-flag-planned/5420435

[JB 0]

Afternoon nevermind, whilst I more or less agree with your `Russia baiting` stance I think your theory that `we` are going to start a third world war is nuts. If I am wrong I will happily say so, that''s if were still here of course!

[Herman 9,710]

Something for nevermind to listen to.[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04v59h7[/url]

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

thanks for that Herman, always love the BBC''s unbiased view when it comes to bigging up an unaccountable NATO.Here is another one of the conspiracy theories, this time from the horses mouth, well, its the other propaganda channel, innit. With the secrecy about the voice recorders and the dismissal of the entry holes in the cockpit, made by a 30mm gun, this theory is as good as the other.http://robinwestenra.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/mh17-confirmation-o-ukrainian.html?spref=fb

[Herman 9,710]

Try listening to it.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Herman have you got any links of any coercion in the vote of independence in eastern Ukraine, or the prop Russian vote in the Crimea?Further, have you got any reasons Ukraine''s civilians should trust their just elected Government, NATO''s aggressive stooges who see nothing wrong with spending vast amounts of debts, EU and US money that should have been spent on the countries recovery and economic kick starter, on arms and weapons to fight those who do not want to be part of a country that aligns itself to right wing fascists groups?Why do you think has the latest EU summit decided to not highlight or agree to Ukraine''s accession to the EU, to let it drop, not talk about it anymore?Lastly, why should I listen to it twice when the first time did not make much difference?

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

[quote user="JB"]Afternoon nevermind, whilst I more or less agree with your `Russia baiting` stance I think your theory that `we` are going to start a third world war is nuts. If I am wrong I will happily say so, that''s if were still here of course![/quote]

JB, I have been a soldier during the cold war and I would like to ask you,'' why do you think it necessary to expand NATO towards Russia''s borders, when the Warsaw pact has been dissolved, most countries have  an Independent status or are levered by political opportunists, some dictators, but essentially peace? Why all this aggressive undermining of Ukraine, since 2004, perverting the orange revolution by using right wing football hooligans and satraps, western mercenaries and Israeli trainers to make out that all is well, when in reality the Ukraine is being destroyed by Kiev and its hobnail boots, paranoia and underhand military false flagging. No wonder the EU has dropped membership like a hot stone.I do not believe the original MH17 scenario and its clandestine secretive investigation, whose nature is obvious and obfuscating, but give me one good reason, one that was not provoked, for us to expand NATO to the east, if we are not having a secret economic desire on the place?

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

A very good geologists view of the Ukraine and why it should make peace with its eastern region, rather than destroy Ukraine''s economical bedrock as it is currently happening with US pressure for war and chaos. That is not what people had in mind when they undertook the orange revolution and tried to sever the ties with Russia, they wanted peace and a relation with the EU, not go to war with its own people in order to hurt Russia.http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/ukraine-as-seen-through-eyes-of.html

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

meet the man getting his honours for......well he is the pilot, allegedly, who shot down MH17. Young ambitious and full of Kievs right wing orders.http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7dc_1419295378

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

From a much better funded RT, here is an interview with a person from the ground crew working the day MH17 was shot down. He reports having seen three jets take off, one of them with air to air missiles. All planes came back and the missiles were not present on the specific fighter jet.Ukraine shoukld be charged with state terrorism, in no way should they join the EU or NATO for that matter.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TmDNa8lTcI#t=22

[Herman 9,710]

There''s a clue in the name of the TV station.[:|]

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

What clue would that be? oh its Russia TV? I take their propaganda with a pinch of salt Herman, and the BBC''s with a spoonful. I do not read the Guardian, FT or listen to CNN or Fox, and if anybody thinks that they are getting unbiased news because of the kindness and oh so traditional broadcasting they are listening to, then they are deluded.We don''t get news, we get propaganda. That its Russia that is trying to solve this unattractive problem of MH17 for us western pundits to scoff at, with not much inertia coming from this side of the argument, is not astonishing, they have far better funded broadcasters than we have.Please, rather than belittle RT, show us were you can listen to the cockpit voice recorder, or where we can read the description and reasons for the bullet holes in the cockpit, lets hear and see Kievs radar evidence when they say that no jets have flown that day.This liberal stupidity driving us towards a war in Europe nobody wants is untenable. Ukraine and Georgia should not join NATO, it should not expand just because the US says so and some dumb asses here agree to expansion and escalation. Looking forward to some evidence, as are many Dutch/Malaysian victims of this callous Kiev action.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

This story is not from RT, but from voltairenet. Why was USS Dona Duck so frightened that they turned tail and ran? Well, looks like their modern ships are not operating modern ECCM measures, they had their whole ship knocked out by one single aircraft, without a single shot fired.http://www.voltairenet.org/article185860.html