Ukraine Protests

[Sheva 123]

Shrimper; ''''The USA did not put up with Russia having missiles on their doorstep in Cuba and had them removed under the threat of WW3. The Russians are just looking at it the same way as I see it''''.

In fact, it came down to an Ukrainian Naval officer to make the final call and he said ‘Net’, otherwise you and I wouldn’t be talking today.

[SHRIMPER 328]

Could you please furnish me with this Ukrainian Naval officers name so I can check him out Sheva. Thanks.

[Sheva 123]

Vasili Arkhipov,.

try that!

[Sheva 123]

OK this is my final post, its already Monday here.

It seems in the last hour that Russia wants to ‘back off’.

Let me tell you that there is a very important power on the side lines and its not the US.

They have interests in Crimea, but more importantly they now have rights to farm in Ukraine for many many years. This area is the size of Belgium, the very best farming land in the world and they need it to grow crops and raise animals for meat on a vast scale, Their population is over 1 Billion and getting very hungry.

China supports Ukraine and wants their interests in Ukraine protected.

[Sheva 123]

In the last 3 days, its highly noticeable that people in our town in Eastern Ukraine have a much changed mood. They fully expect to be entering a war sooner or later and its going to be big. Its very hard to know that you are going to be fighting fellow ‘Russians’, the Ukrainians are known as ‘White Russians’.

What’s also hard to except for Ukrainians here is this. ‘We built the rockets in this town to go to space , we built the nuclear missiles and enough to attack anyone if needed and we gave them up, with the written promise in International Law that our borders would be forever protected and we have been let down. Europe has shown no strength against the aggressor and we have been humiliated in Crimea by Russian troops who are now about to attack further into Ukraine.

Russia/Putin has planned this for years and he hasn’t even made that a secret. Russians only understand and respect strength. They feared and respected the UK and the USA when they were lead by Thatcher and Regan, they would never never have tried what they are trying now when they were alive, I tell you this 100%, Putin would never have pushed against Great Britain under Margaret Thatcher. Now Putin sees that the West is weak and over dependent on Russian money. He sees this as the best possible time to regain parts of the former USSR.

People in Ukraine keep asking me when the UK will support them against the invasion. I can only say, ‘when its to late’. A firm stance now or a week ago would have put Putin firmly at the ‘negotiating table’, now the West does little or nothing , hoping that the problem will go away. It wont. Ukrainians have stood still, empting their guns , while the Russian Special Forces have run riot, O yes Russia admits they are Russian soldiers now! 1 of the famous 10 lies admitted.

What about the [Muslim] Tatars ? Do you think that they are going to let history repeat itself, given 15 minutes to leave their houses and carted off in trucks to the frozen wastelands of Russia. Already their houses are getting the mark. Turkey which is very close has promised to support their fight, all Muslims will. Up until Putin kicked this off, everyone was cool, now we have splits inside families, provocateurs cross from Russia to start fights. Serbs are in Crimea as are Russia Cossacks. Even Putins infamous gang of Wolves ]Hells Angels] have been into Ukraine , with his blessing. Does it sound like a man wanting peace?....... The famous Ukrainian Cossacks haven’t taken up arms yet!

I touched on one point before and its significant. Our former President, the 2 times jailed crock, soon to be 3, Yanukovich signed many bad deals, which of course allowed him and the ‘Family’ to cream off billions of $. What hasn’t been mentioned yet are the deals he did with China. He gave them the rights of massive amounts of the agricultural land of Ukraine. In fact 1/6 of the total farming land on very long leases, 50 years or something like. This they take as their own to grow for their own people, also I I understand he did deals in Crimea for commercial port, in which he was half partner. I understand that China supports Ukraine, the above might help explain that.

Peace.

[Sheva 123]

Our Tatars,

our friends but see how the Russians treated them and now they repeat this history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqzwWqSAR1U

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

why is it that thousands of apparently Russia loving Crimeans, are withdrawing vast sums of Ukrainian currency our of their accounts just before the refewrendum? Does this mean the rubel will be introduced there?

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Putin is seemingly taking back the Crimea from Ukraine which was given to the Ukraine by Krutschov in 1954, after previously being within the Soviet Union proper, but then he was from the Ukraine.Something that has appeared bis that the state of international protests are steered somehow and entangled in a web of foreign plans and diversions. But what do you expect from those who went into Iraq on a bunch of lies.http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-protests-carefully-orchestrated-the-role-of-canvas-us-financed-color-revolution-training-group/5369906

[Sheva 123]

The Crimean vote has passed today, boycotted by the Ukrainian and tatars population of Crimea. Of course it was a farce and rigged by the invading Russian forces. You can vote for going with Russia now or you can vote to go with them later!! Not only that it was done without any campaigning or notice. It is not recognised by the world.

The truth is, we are not that worried by losing Krim, it holds back Ukraine in many ways in short a liability. I feel for the Tatars, given 15 minutes by Stalin to leave and now history is repeating itself! Where there was peace is very likely to become a dangerous area. They have been mistreated by the Russians.

The problem for Crimea now is that it can’t work, it relies on Ukraine for water and all services, so therefore Russia needs to invade at least Eastern Ukraine and there starts the Hell on Earth. Ukraine, UK USA and the Western world will not allow this to happen , that its set in stone . Ukraine had the 3rd biggest arsenal of nuclear weapons in the early nineties, they also made them, but agreed to give them up so long as the UK , USA & Russia guaranteed their borders from invasion physically or economically. Ukraine now asks for that to be proven. It will start as a civil war and soon become and major international war. Putin knows this , he is just trying to see at what point the west says No More and see what he can hang onto. Very dangerous game.

Of course we take out money from the banks, it is ‘micky mouse ‘ money and all Russian/Ukrainians know it will at some point will be stolen by the government , we are still owed from the USSR period.

Its not a worry for Ukraine any more, we know and except what’s coming. Many of my family and friends will have to fight in the army having done their national service and still being under 60 others will be part of the civil defence.

The problem now passes to the whole of Europe, at some point soon, military will have to be offered, Putin will brush off the sanctions, unless they are super strong .

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We all know about Iraq and WMD, Bush boy did a good job on Bliar, massaging his ego to go into war looking for weapons that could kill the Brits in 30 minutes!............ It was Oil, it was Exon and Chevron wanting to get hold of them lovely big oil fields in Kurdistan. Did Blair ever apologise for the thousands of deaths he helped cause, no didn’t think so, to busy fllo8ncing around the world filling his boots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COCEauuQrb0

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Sheva, with no way will Europe support a splinter group Government led by fascists, not militarily. To think that this coalition of oligarchs and Mafiosis can break Putin, another oligarch and Mafiosi, but who has been clever and merely responded by taking the krim back, after the Ukrainian opposition planned for this revolution since 2004, with Merkels and Bush''s/Blair''s support. You seen my link to the CIA controlled action, so don''t expect the EU to dance to Obama''s tune, because he jumped the gun, prematurely.I agree that these nuclear weapons are a danger, but they are not bargaining chips either, the agreement stands and those who raise this nuclear stand off are naive to say the least, Putin would never endanger his gas network, especially not now that the Turkish oil pipeline is working and talk of a gas bypass to Russia via the southern states, are advanced. You talk of fighting those who think different, when you are intelligent and able to talk and negotiate. Then with your next breath you talk of personal sacrifice and war, not having talked enough and that you expect the Wests military aid, that we should carry the cost, feed you fighters, and ensure that you have a job to go to afterwards?dream on, why not start by getting rid of your rabid fascist elements, and then talk to Putin?

[Sheva 123]

Your post is confusing and disjointed, if I might say so.

I appreciate that you can only read and listen to others who have most certainly never even set foot in Ukraine, never mind lived and work there and understand its history and culture, however I try to give you some insight how things really are. I live in the part of Ukraine which is called Eastern, my family is what you might call ‘Russian’, they are also what might be called, middle class intellectuals, but also old style USSR citizens. Also I should add, we are part Jewish, so please don’t try and give any advice or lectures about Fascists!.. We were occupied by the Germans and my older generation had to hide, that’s why I reject any suggestions that our Government , which was voted for by the majority of Rada, [all parties, including the ‘tory party of regions’] that it is run or controlled by fascists……….Wrong.

Logic will tell you this;

We have been peacefully demonstrating against what was a mafia lead Government, totally corrupt, but ultimately allowed to flourish by Russia because it suited their greater plan. No one is even disputing that the Ex President was a total tosp*t and had to be removed, not to wait for the next Presidential Elections, the situation was beyond serious. He fled with his gang and money and now awaits jail, for the 3rd time in his life.

OK’ …… For months and years, anti Government protesters demonstrated on ‘Maidan’, central Kiev, its allowed, they never moved away for years. We have all been there, hundreds of thousands at a time. 50,000 is just a small meeting!. So the protest movement totals millons and a true cross section of Ukrainians WHO just want some BASIC JUSTICE, FREEDOM, DIGNITY, WESTERN VALUES, all what you take for granted.

The game changer was when the peaceful protesters were attacked by the riot police and beaten and tortured. You don’t know half of what they did. This was the turning point and the stronger men and women fought back hard, they had witnessed enough. They laid down their lives to make the change.

We have heard so much made of the fact that some of these fighters were ‘right wing’, yes they were, they were also gay boys, Jewish, left wing, you name it they were there!!!

Check the dead and you will see what a cross section of hero’s died.

I won’t talk about Crimea, just to say that the events there now make this a Global crisis.

I don’t want war, no one I know has fired a gun, but the mood is of impending conflict and unless the West is prepared to stand up to Putin, then it will spread through and past Ukraine.

You seem very sure that the US and its allies won’t use the military option, but will they stand back and see thousands killed by Russian troops when they gave legal assurances that they would never allow Ukraine to be invaded?........

Russians like strong people, they have no respect for weakness and will fully take advantage, if nothing else, understand this point!

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

"You seem very sure that the US and its allies won’t use the military

option, but will they stand back and see thousands killed by Russian

troops when they gave legal assurances that they would never allow

Ukraine to be invaded?......"Today, Sheva, the first Ukrainian soldier died from a Russian bullet, your talk of thousands being killed by Russioan troops is conjecture, speculation. Nobody denies you citizens rights and democracy, all of your past leaders talked of it, but never meant it, not Ms Timoshenko and not Mr. Yanukovich, so you relied on outside countries to help you. As for Mr Yatsenyuk, saviour and illegal leader of the current crop of Middle class interlectuals who fail to see their future being as bright as it once was, he''s already sitting on the gravy train, after having changed his story and website appearances.I hope that you will be allowed to immigrate when your fellow eastern Uklrainian Russians want their referendum and acsession, but don''t expect the west to jump to your rescue. Why did you take such a long time to reject the EU''s advances and conditions? Why did the Ukraine allow western NGO''s and politicians to run your demonstrations, since 2004 they have been plotting this overthrow and  the composition of demonstrators and their foreign helpers is known here.If Russia does not accept weakness I''m afraid that you will have to tough it out with your neighbours.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

And here is some information about the changes to the Arseniy Yatsenyuk campaign and his websites.http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2014/03/the-arseniy-yatsenyuk-foundation-has-disappeared/

[Sheva 123]

Ukrainians can tough it out as you say, they have done that for many many years and have suffered millions of deaths, lets round it up to 20 million last century and not argue about a million either side . The population is around 45 mill so that’s not a bad % hit wouldn’t you say?.

Don’t condescend my compatriots..

It seems I’m only talking to the 1, so not really worth my while, as you are obviously an anti American , left leaning person , who has never been able to personally get anywhere near the truth but relies on internet searches, which in all honestly will always give you the answer you want.

As for hoping to migrate to the west if Russia invades Eastern Ukraine!, don’t worry about that, I quite enjoy the warm English winters and could settle there at any time if I wished, maybe living in ‘Ham St, Windham or such place!

I don’t want to sound rude, but you really annoy and insult me and my family with your ignorance of our situation, maybe you are known for this and it’s the reason that you have to answer your own posts on other threads?

Still if you have at least learnt to call our country by its correct name then my time hasn’t been lost, but even that doesn’t look possible. ‘Ukraine’, drop the ‘ THE’………………..god help us!

[Herman 9,700]

Reading, just not commenting Sheva. Keep up your reports, if you can be ar5ed.[Y]

[SHRIMPER 328]

I too read your reports Sheva and am behind the Ukrainian people 100% but what the ordinary man in the street can do over here is not a lot. As Herman says please keep us informed with your side of the unfolding story.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

[quote user="Sheva"]Ukrainians can tough it out as you say, they have done that for many many years and have suffered millions of deaths, lets round it up to 20 million last century and not argue about a million either side . The population is around 45 mill so that’s not a bad % hit wouldn’t you say?.

Don’t condescend my compatriots..

It seems I’m only talking to the 1, so not really worth my while, as you are obviously an anti American , left leaning person , who has never been able to personally get anywhere near the truth but relies on internet searches, which in all honestly will always give you the answer you want.

As for hoping to migrate to the west if Russia invades Eastern Ukraine!, don’t worry about that, I quite enjoy the warm English winters and could settle there at any time if I wished, maybe living in ‘Ham St, Windham or such place!

I don’t want to sound rude, but you really annoy and insult me and my family with your ignorance of our situation, maybe you are known for this and it’s the reason that you have to answer your own posts on other threads?

Still if you have at least learnt to call our country by its correct name then my time hasn’t been lost, but even that doesn’t look possible. ‘Ukraine’, drop the ‘ THE’………………..god help us![/quote]

With no way do I sat out to annoy you Sheva, or your family, but I question the wests and Russia''s hypocrisy. Please understand that we are listening as well as watching what is happening.What do you say of Putins speech two days ago? His references to discussions with Kravchuk over the demarcation of Russias border with a ''friendly'' neighbour.....Putin seems to think that the borders have never been officially recognised or demarcated, maybe something Yatsenyuk should be dealing with, pronto.With no word have I denigrated your person or your family and I shan''t get into any slanging matches here. if you want to talk or debate on one of the most influential political blogs, rather thjan here on a football blog, please don''t hold yourselfs back. Be prepared, many on that site speak Russian and some are diplomates and ex civil servants. I forgive you your lefty jibe, this is not about the archaic British electoral system, or my political leanings, but Ukraines countries future.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/deconstructing-putin/What is your idea on the news that much of the support for some of the rightwing characters Ukraine''s interim Government espouses to, are active football supporters, some say hooligans, from various football clubs?

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Another well made point on a blog from a Russian who seemingly follows the money. The Crimea was a deliberate and lucrative catch with much to loose for Ukraine. So there is something to talk about.http://theoligarchkings.wordpress.com/2014/03/12/rothschild-russia-and-why-everyone-is-getting-upset-about-crimea/

[JB 0]

Can`t pretend to be knowledgeable about the region but I think the EU`s interference was a dog given opportunity for Putin to act.

Say one thing about the Russian president, at least he is not in the pocket of the Israelis.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

[quote user="JB"]Can`t pretend to be knowledgeable about the region but I think the EU`s interference was a dog given opportunity for Putin to act.

Say one thing about the Russian president, at least he is not in the pocket of the Israelis.[/quote]

Agreed JB, not as much as the UK Parliament, via its FoI supporters in all parties, anyway. Our foreign policy is fully aligned with that of Israel, thanks to 14pints William.

[Herman 9,700]

How did this get back to Israel?

 

Is Sheva still about? What''s going on in your part of Ukraine?

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

[quote user="Herman "]

How did this get back to Israel?

 

Is Sheva still about? What''s going on in your part of Ukraine?

[/quote]WellSheva mentiuoned she is of jewish decent to which I did not respond. Now JB raised the point that Putin is not in Israels pocket and I replied that the UK Government virtually is in their pockets.Sheva is probably busy with trying to get some sense out of his/her politicians.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

A taped conversation, accredited to and confirmed by Yulia Timoschenko herself, calling Ukraine to arms, even mentioning a nuclear option.whether its genuine, which will be questioned by anybody who does not like RT, is to be seen.http://rt.com/news/tymoshenko-calls-destroy-russia-917/

[Herman 9,700]

Of course it''s genuine. It''s from the non-biased media outlet that is Russia Today.[:|]

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

there is not much difference between fox TV, the BBC, Star TV or RT, Herman, why do you think we do not hear about Ms. Hryhyans ( Yulias real name) racial misconceptions and hatred for Russia from our media? Was merely trying to flag up why she has no credence amongst Ukrainians anymore.

[Sheva 123]

Wasn’t really intending to post any more on here but it might be wise to throw in a few thoughts from the ‘horses mouth’ and correct some of the stuff gleamed from the Internet searches.

Yulia, who is she:

OK as a former neighbour, not on speaking terms as such, I can tell you that she doesn’t consider herself Jewish , is that what was implied?. She is as Ukrainian as they come, although her gran was of Jewish decent. What is 100% true, is that she is from Dnipropetrovsk and that has the worlds biggest Jewish Centre , so to be a Jew there is if anything a bonus! BTW she does have a very big support, she is the strongest man in politics’, but is having serious medical attention in Germany ATM. Yulia is a friend of the west, she paid a heavy price in the Orange Revolution by trying to please the West and keeping the gas flowing to your homes. She is standing for President and Putin would not dare cross her.

Does she have a nuclear weapon up her sleeve? Well lets put it this way. Dnipropetrovsk built the rockets and weapons that armed the former USSR, its still there and still builds rockets. Ukraine as you all know or should do, agreed to give them up in the 90,s, although 1 or 2 went missing!!...............I’m told this, but can’t confirm, so don’t lose any sleep. It does however have a lot of dirty stuff hidden and stored that I do know and it is not safe.

What else that I can say, without being arrested!. …. Head of armed services resigned cos the soldiers didn’t shot back in Crimea, although they were humiliated in their own country and needed to respond. However Russia knows it will pay a price but for now it fills its boots . Putin will take what he can get and a bit more, its his mission. If only for a strong Western leader this would not happen and we could all sleep better. Thatcher was so admired in Russia and Ukraine, Reagan was great to. As I’ve said before, never show weakness to a Russian, Never. I believe the US knows this well, but the EU seems to be a bit soft. Not seems , are!. Also let me say this. When Putin and Russia says, we won’t invade into Eastern Ukraine, its best always to expect the opposite. Hitler said the same and what did he do, that’s right, dropped bombs on Kiev and Ukraine lost 12 million lives, thereon.

I guess you have heard of all the cash and gold being found in the former Governments safes, millions in cash and gold. I will without doubt be putting in a claim to the new energy minister for the return of several thousands of $ stolen from me.

Someone said, ‘Oh what can we do’. Well there’s a big Ukrainian movement in the UK and worldwide, commonly known as ‘LondonMaiden, ParisMaiden etc. These people have left Ukraine, something like 7 millions in as many years and they through Facebook, lobby governments and highlight their experiences of life in Ukraine and what can help change things. Its an very powerful protest that points the finger in the right places. Its 100% peaceful as was the protests in Ukraine for 10 years before they were attacked,… and dignified.

Mostly Russians/Ukrainians east and east get on. Don’t buy into all this Western Ukrainian Fascists, clap trap, haven’t you ever heard of Putins ‘Hitler Youth’, if you want a fascist look over there, but in reality there’s not much difference to eastern Europe and 70’s England. No ones going to change my opinion because I have lived in all regions, including England and within my family we have some very bright scholars who can dissect and explain the Ukrainian/Russian history in the most minute details. There’s just to much conspiracy flying around today………. The tensions have been artificially created to serve Mr Putin’s plan, its no secret, however if he carries on invading, there will be a massive backlash which will effect all of Europe.

Lets pray for peace but get ready for some pain.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Even when provided with the address of one of the most influentual political blogs in Britain, Sheva prefers a football forum to spread rumours that the nuclear agreement with the West was really a pup/sob we bought, that Ms. Timoshenko might have two rockets up her sleeve, rattle rattle?

[Sheva 123]

Nevermind. I will go where I like and not where you want me to.

I have the ability and means to do that. You need to except that not everyone is going to follow your anti Yankie leftie views. Maybe you haven’t had or been able to make the same opportunities as myself to travel and work around the world, but if you had then maybe it might of given you a far better perspective of the world, not one you just seem to gleam from your computer searches. You’ve talked about our situation in Ukraine from a point of view of knowledge, a knowledge of no experience. If I’ve called you wrong then please forgive me, although I don’t think so.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

[quote user="Sheva"]Nevermind. I will go where I like and not where you want me to.

I have the ability and means to do that. You need to except that not everyone is going to follow your anti Yankie leftie views. Maybe you haven’t had or been able to make the same opportunities as myself to travel and work around the world, but if you had then maybe it might of given you a far better perspective of the world, not one you just seem to gleam from your computer searches. You’ve talked about our situation in Ukraine from a point of view of knowledge, a knowledge of no experience. If I’ve called you wrong then please forgive me, although I don’t think so.[/quote]

You go were you like, Sheva and you are wrong on most of your counts. Nobody doubts your ''abilities'', whatever they are... and stop being so priggish, I don''t spent all my time on the computer and shall not touch one all of next week.Just some news regards Yulia Timoshenko, her hate tirades , and I freely translate from der Spiegel, ''are that of a revenge politician when the Ukraine needs a calm president that can integrate, not split an already problematic situation, ''  All parties in the German Government are saying that she is damaged goods and that her angy mob politics are not what is needed.The IMF has agreed to a crippling stifling loan which will hit pensioners hardest, some severe cuts in public sector jobs are mandated and it will be hard to repay it. Sadly we also see Russian forces being amassed at Ukraine''s border, an acute situation and threat that does not need inflaming.I happen to agree with this and hope that the Ukraine will elect a person that can speak for both the Russian Ukrainians and those who favour a move into the EU.But please, do translate it yourself, some of the ministers and minions who spoke out have been to the Ukraine of late and they do not want to make a fragile situation worse.http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ukraine-timoschenkos-tiraden-gegen-russland-alarmieren-berlin-a-960844.htmlGood to hear you travelled as well, nothing better than to travel for a soul, to see human realities, facts on the ground. I like using a motorbike.

[Sheva 123]

All these so called intercepted phone conversations! Would be interesting to hear some of Mr Putins, when he gives orders to go do some ''work'', but then he is very careful how and where he talks to people. Even Bonny Prince Charlie the future King of England wanted to take a machine gun and go kill some Irish , did he not?

I’m not going to totally stand up for Yulia I have said for over 10 years, I’m not convinced about her even when she was the darling of the majority of Ukraine. What I do know is that she has no fear, she’s tough + some more and also highly intelligent.

I’m not going to take as true something from a German paper. They have their own agenda and it’s a nice art to cobble together words and phrases from a much longer conversation, which portrays that person as a devil of kind.

At the end of the day Ukraine needs a President who can unite the whole country, [ which is split, not so much because we have’ Russian Ukrainians’ and Ukrainians. Its more like a ‘time delay’. The east is lagging in its cultural development. Given another 10/15 years they will have very similar desires to be given the same opportunities and lifestyle which is enjoyed in Europe.] Yulia although having many good qualities , is not that person, she missed her opportunity from the Orange Revolution. The man who is favourite to win the forth coming Presidential elections, would be Petr Poroshenko, known as the ‘chocolate king’ .An oligarch, but seen as never being in the pocket of Russia or the gangsters of the Party of Regions. He could be the link man Europe and the East wants. Yulia and Klitchko are on record as saying they would support him , if they don’t get carried forward to the second round of voting.

The most important is not letting another Party of Regions gangster back in .