Christian 'Group' Idea

[Bws Cat 0]

"Why i''m most upset with BW''s Cat is because he appeared to completely ignore me saying pretty much that, but that people in general are/can be/have the potential to be horrible or evil without religion. And would be the same if religion never existed. "

Of course GP, I''m not saying religion is the cause of all evil. Where did I say that?

"BW''s Cat, no one is having a flame war. I thought you were better than that, if you don''t want to get into a discussion then don''t, but don''t use excuses like that. "

I wasn''t trying to leave the discussion because I ''knew I was losing'' or anything like that. It''s because with these type of themes people have their minds set and it''s in vain to try and change their mind 99% percent of the time.

"But religion, on the whole (and there are billion of religious people across the world still) does not advocate, suggest, inspire, want, demand, require, hint at, or in any way make its followers do bad things"

The point is that the judeo-christian god is not benevolent at all. Read the whole bible, all of it, and you will see some horrible crimes being committed. For example:

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl''s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)"

Now I know what you''re thinking, because in the countless arguments I''ve had with theists they always say that the old testament is rubbish and shouldn''t be listened to. Well your messiah says otherwise.

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

Now of course in our modern society we like to pick and choose the bits in the bible that fit with our morals and ethos, and many of Jesus''s teachings are just. HOWEVER as I have illustrated above people like to ignore the wicked and evil things in the bible and like to say that because it''s old fashioned it isn''t legitimate.

As my quotes above have shown, i''m afraid it is.

"The bible does have some very harsh stuff in it, but the old testament is that, old. Its outdated. If you do believe in God, and believe it is the Holy Book, humans have clearly evolved (on the whole) past most of the ''stories'' in the Old Testament."

Yes, humans have evolved beyond the stories in the old testament. But then why didn''t god think about that? It''s all very good saying that it was the old times and so that was just the way it was, but why did god ''egg them on'' so to speak? Why did he encourage this type of behaviour? Why did he not seek to change the way people behave?

Oh sure, he tried with Jesus. Which shows even more confusion because he commits these terrible crimes and then spreads the message of love and peace. Hypocritical.

I doubt I have changed your mind, I might of even enraged you, but I hope you at least see where I''m coming from.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,414]

Might HAVE even enraged you. ;-)

[Bws Cat 0]

Yeah, thanks WOAS.

[Gingerpele 0]

You haven''t changed my mind or enraged me. In fact now i''m quite happy because you''ve involved yourself in the debate.

First off, I didn''t say you said religion was the cause of all evil. I was just saying that religion isn''t inherently evil as you have suggested. If religion had never existed there would have still been many many wars and many many people doing evil things.

I also never mean''t to suggest (or said) you were trying to leave the discussion because you were losing. Was just bemused, even a little disappointed you decided to try and leave on the note of claiming this was turning into a flame war, none of us have been insulting each other or anything like that...

Now, i''m going to say something that may well contradict everything i''ve already said. But if God does exist, and I think some for of God does exist, its certainly not the exact God as in the Old/New Testament, probably not any existing religious book.

As you say, as God is described by Christians, he''s all knowing, he should have known the Old Testament wouldn''t be relevant today. I could perhaps, if I wanted to argue he is exactly as Christians describe him, used it to control people in early times, and then as religion and people developed it becomes a test of faith or whatever.

(Which, a very important point I don''t think anyone has mentioned yet, it is all of course about faith. You could point out every single passage in the bible that points at God being a big meanie, you probably wouldn''t damage my faith)

(Also another point I mean''t to say earlier, I perhaps forgot to. I''m not a very good Christian/Catholic, I do quite enjoy going to Church with my Grandma every now and then, and call myself a Catholic. Its not about the literal meaning for me, or most sane people, its the interpretation. The last service I went to, a couple weeks ago was just really refreshing and positive, the stories and ''teachings'' were all just, nice.)

As for this bit:

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

Now of course in our modern society we like to pick and choose the bits in the bible that fit with our morals and ethos, and many of Jesus''s teachings are just. HOWEVER as I have illustrated above people like to ignore the wicked and evil things in the bible and like to say that because it''s old fashioned it isn''t legitimate.

As my quotes above have shown, i''m afraid it is."

The second quote you use, its pretty contradicting in itself, first of ''inspired by'' its therefore not even the word of God, he''s allowed humans to take his words and put their own twist on. I''m fairly sure the New Testament wasn''t even written by the 12 apostles, it was there stories and words passed down. So here you have the word of God, passed on to humans, passed on to other humans, and written down. Unlike the Kuran which I believe is supposed to be the direct word of God and is treated with much more respect than the bible. Secondly, ''teaching, refutation, correcting and training in righteousness'' they all kind of mean different things.

So we have contradictions in the bible, we have the ''fact'' its not even the direct word of God. And the ''fact'' humans have evolved past a lot of its teachings.

I do get where you are coming from, i''m not trying to change your mind, or convert you or anything like that. I don''t want to offend you or anything either.

I think we can hopefully agree there is a lot of contradiction where religion is involved. First off we have so many religions, and within many of those you have so many branches. And within the branches you have individual people who depending on social factors will be different, even the high up ones. I read that the newest Pope got rid of all the flash stuff the previous Pope/s had (Gold throne/chair, stuff like that) because he believes he doesn''t deserve it or something like that.

Essentially, its a personal thing. It is a bit silly trying to convince people they are wrong. Faith isn''t a thing you can measure, touch or even prove. Its just something people have. Everyone does really, you may have faith in Norwich City, in your child, in your work, in God. And as i''ve said, I have faith, I believe in God, but I don''t necessarily believe God is exactly as Christians say he is. But I have no problem with you not believe, really I have no problem with your views, I just don''t agree with them, and I don''t agree with them strongly enough to try and counter you a little. Like I said I''m not trying to change your mind, we''re both just trying to get our point across so the other understands, which is hard on the internet anyway.

[Houston Canary 0]

BW''s cat seems not to be atheist but anti-theist.

I''m no thologist but I''m pretty sure Christians follow the teachings of Jesus, and I doubt He ever encouraged warfare on his behalf, so claiming wars are fought on behalf of Christianity is wrong. The Crusades are great examples of this. Religion was merely a cover for doing things Jesus would never approve. Hence, religion is the excuse but it''s not the reason.

Atheists hold the top spots in worst murderers in world history. Stalin and Mao were anti-religion commies and Hitler was no Christian as an adult although he did interpret his survival of the Valkyrie assassination attempt to mean God was on his side. Real Christians find that thought repulsive.

[Houston Canary 0]

GP, the Koran was written by people Mohammed told his stories of God talking to him. Mohammed was illiterate. The Koran has 2 parts, 1 associated with his time in Medina, the other in Mecca. There are some differences between the 2. In the later one, as I understand it, God said use of force to protect the religion was ok. Suppsedly in which ever is the first book, God didn''t say much about it but after these new Muslims were getting harassed, God said it was ok to fight back. NOT go on the offensive like terrorists do, but for protection purposes only.

As such, the jerks who suicide bomb passenger buses are using Islam as an excuse but it is not the reason because the Koran doesn''t permit such disgusting acts of violence despite what those commtting the acts may believe.

[Gingerpele 0]

Thanks for the correction Huston, better than my school teacher. Who pretend, in Religious Studies lessons they are teaching equally about a variety of faiths, but actually they didn''t.

And yeah, people like suicide bombers are just using it as an excuse, in their heads they may well (or in fact, probably do) think they are doing what their god would want them to do. But they are clearly demented and sick people.

[mrs miggins 0]

Houston C. firstly i would argue that you''re missing the point when you say the most evil people have been atheist. There are good and bad people in every religion and in non-believers such as myself.

Second, when you say the Koran doesn''t permit disgusting acts of violence, can you or someone else elaborate on that point? Because i disagree.

Taken from the Quran-

"4:34 Husbands should take full care of their wives, with [the bounties] God has given to some more than others and with what they spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard what God would have them guard in the husbands’ absence. If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem)"

[Houston Canary 0]

Why comment on my message by claiming I said most violent people are atheists when I didn''t?

Comparing smacking a disobedient wife to protect thei religious standards and who knows the rules is not the same as the acts I referred to.

[Joanna Grey 0]

Houston Canary wrote - "As such, the jerks who suicide bomb passenger buses are using Islam as an excuse but it is not the reason because the Koran doesn''t permit such disgusting acts of violence despite what those commtting the acts may believe."

Hmmmm, it''s actually OK to slay the unbelievers.

[Houston Canary 0]

That deep thought "hmmmm" preceding the last comment was about as shallow as it gets.

You conveniently left out the part where I mentioned the Koran doesn''t suggest they go on the offensive but your deep-as-you-can-get-without-drowning comment suggests the opposite.

They can fight back to protect the religion. Fighting back may involve death as Trayvon Martin found out, but it doesn''t involve suicide bombing markets or buses crowded with unknowing civilians.

[PAUL 4]

We don''t go to church apart from christmas & easter.  We go to Remembrance Sunday at our local cenataph & open air worship in the summer where my kids like singing modern songs. I prefer being outside to being inside a church, and at least being outside at either of these I can have a fag!

[Larson E Whipsnade 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3_BRSOkFyY

[Herman 9,756]

Didn''t realise Wilko was only in them for a short period. Learn something new.........

[Larson E Whipsnade 0]

And replaced by Denis Law by the look of it.

[Herman 9,756]

Haha spot on.

Spinal Tap got the tash from the other geezer.

[Joanna Grey 0]

Houston Canary wrote - "That deep thought "hmmmm" preceding the last comment was about as shallow as it gets.

You conveniently left out the part where I mentioned the Koran doesn''t suggest they go on the offensive but your deep-as-you-can-get-without-drowning comment suggests the opposite.

They can fight back to protect the religion. "

I did not realise that you were an expert on the Koran. Shame that you only seem to have read half of it.

[Larson E Whipsnade 0]

[quote user="Joanna Grey"]Houston Canary wrote - "As such, the jerks who suicide bomb passenger buses are using Islam as an excuse but it is not the reason because the Koran doesn''t permit such disgusting acts of violence despite what those commtting the acts may believe."

Hmmmm, it''s actually OK to slay the unbelievers.[/quote]Indeed , according to the bible it is : Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB)They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.  (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)   One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men.  During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD''s name.  So the man was brought to Moses for judgment.  His mother''s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan.  They put the man in custody until the LORD''s will in the matter should become clear.  Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head.  Then let the entire community stone him to death.  Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished.  Anyone who blasphemes the LORD''s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel.  Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD''s name will surely die.  (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)And let us not forget gays..."If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)And death for adultery...  If a man commits adultery with another man''s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)And please ...you are not about to tell us you have actually read the Koran....no please no...for that lie you might be struck down by the angel of the Lord.   That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp.  Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead.  (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)

[Joanna Grey 0]

loo wrote - "And let us not forget gays...

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)""

Countries where homosexuality is punishable by the Death Sentence;

Mauritania

Yemen

Saudi Arabia

Somaliland

Sudan

Afghanistan

and Nigeria (but only in the North of the country).

Want to guess what the connection here is?

[Bws Cat 0]

"Want to guess what the connection here is? "

Well, it''s obviously the gays fault for making that choice.

(A shame so many people in the world actually believe that)