Maggie: What would be an apt tribute?

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

How the phrase ''Free heathcare'' has not been investigated by the office of fair trading is beyond me, I am forced to give more money to the NHS every year than I spend on entire years food bill and holidays put together. We never hear that our refuse collection is free. Maybe in the coming years we may get some ''free'' trident nuclear missiles!

Private investment, opposed by Labour at the time, has created the fantastic hospital on the edge of our fair city and with the current problems we face like the aging population and obessity, anyone who thinks the NHS can continue without some major evolution from what was a brilliant insitution to what is today, a bottomless pit sucking up nearly £100billion a year and in need of more, is going to be disappointed, regardless of who is in charge of the country. No doubt whoever takes the nesesary steps will be vilafied in the same way Mrs T is over the mining industry.

 

 

[Rock The Boat 1,329]

My dad was a milkman and I was one of eight kids. Born into a poor rural Norfolk family, I had the very good fortune to be at school during the ''60s when a bright working class kid had the opportunity to get into a grammar school and receive an academic education. I was lucky enough to go onto university and given my working class upbringing it was no surprise that I was a left wing radical at the time.Returning to Norwich for my first job I joined the local trade union branch and became an activist. Soon I was involved in regional, and then national trade union activity by around 1978. I had of course joined the Norwich Labour party and was active in the northern wards of the city, pounding the pavements at election time, leafleting, delivering monthly newsletters, listening to grievances of my neighbours and generally being an all round busybody.

The 1979 election was a big moment for us and I spent a lot of time with David Ennals as a gopher on the campaign trail.When we lost, the consensus in the pub was that Margaret Thatcher wouldn''t last long seeing as she was a woman. Such was the attitudes in the 70''s. 

However I was already becoming increasingly uncomfortable by what I was finding in the left, particularly in the Trade Unions. The unions behaved totally irresponsible without any thought whatsoever of the damage they caused within society. It was always about getting a bigger pay-packet and cushier working conditions. It didn''t bother them that the country was without electricity for days on end. That factories and offices were closed down through the three-day working week. That the poorest in society were the ones who suffered the most. Believe me, there is no altruism or community in the trade union movement. It''s all about ''I''m alright jack and sod the rest''.

Another thing that soon became very clear to me was that the Left was made up of three broad groups of people. There were those who joined the Labour movement because they wanted to change the world for the better, the do-gooders. Nice people, and very principled. Unfortunately, they are not the dominant group of the Left. That belonged to people whom I saw as ''square-pegs in round holes''. Mostly social misfits who were unable to progress their careers in the normal way and turned to unionism as an alternative way to power or status. They saw employers as the enemy, jobs as a necessary evil. They loved the nationalised industries because they feed at the trough of government subsidies. In steel foundries, the mines, car manufacturing, shipbuilding they produced shoddy goods, uncompetetively priced and were able to do so because of national trade barriers and weak government who kowtowed to the bullying unions.

But as bad as this was, there was a third and much more sinister group of people in the Left. These were, and still are, the communists and anarchists. Their motivation is class war. They wish to destroy the democratic state and replace it with an anarchist society. If you think this is far-fetched then you need to ask yourselves, who is behind the outbreaks of rioting that stain this country in the past few decades. The 2011 London riots, G7 riots, Poll Tax riots, Miner''s strike, Broadwater Farm, Toxteth and all the other examples of major civil disturbances are infiltrated by and radicalised by the communist and anarchist entryists to the Labour party and Trade Union movement. Today they are at it again, ''celebrating'' the death of Margaret Thatcher and threatening more civil disturbances on our streets.

In the early 80''s I lived in Liverpool and was knocking off some local bird. Part of the price was that I had to attend many private meetings of anarchists and communists, they thought I was one of them, and listened to many conversations about their plans to exploit local grievances and encourage rioting and looting. Scarily many of these people had links to the IRA movement. Where ever it was possible to destroy the State, they would become involved.

Margaret Thatcher was the only Prime Minister we ever had who was prepared to take on these anarchist and communists that had infiltrated the labour movement. Before her, every other PM had sought to appease the Left and as a result our nation just sunk lower and lower in terms of economic performance and as a world power. Even in her own Cabinet, when she came to power, were against upsetting the unions. But she was smart enough to know that the people who wanted to destroy the country were not representative of the majority. In fact, the ordinary working man and woman of Britain had far more in common with Mrs. Thatcher than the likes of Michael Foot, and they voted for her in droves.

Thatcher won many battles but she didn''t win the war. Her victory was imperfect and there were many things that still needed doing when she was ousted by her own party in 1990. She made mistakes. Signing the Maastricht treaty taking us into closer political union with Europe was perhaps the biggest. But her achievements hugely outweighed her faults. She turned round the economic fortunes of the country and brought prosperity to the people. She changed the mindset of millions of people from bloody-mindedness into a ''can-do'' attitude.  Alongside Ronald Reagan she fought against international communism and brought freedom to millions of people in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. She faced down dictatorships such as those in Argentina and defended the right of people to choose their own destinies.

She did this as a woman at a time when many people were dismissive about the abilities of a woman to govern. She was against the principles of left-wing feminism but probably did for the cause of woman''s rights within society than any political or social movement achieved. She did this when faced with total opposition of the left - who ironically maintained many of her policies when they first came to power. She did this when faced with the out-of-touch patriarchs within her own party, again it is ironic that it was these people and not the electorate that removed her from power.  

Without a shadow of doubt, Margaret Thatcher was the greatest peacetime Prime Minster this country has ever had. She is renown and adored by millions throughout the world. Her legacy of individual liberty coupled with personal responsibility still reverberates around the globe. Personally I was inspired by her and realised that left-wing policies would never improve the lot of ordinary working people. We must always be vigilant against those who wish to bring down this country once again.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

Moving to the present, anyone thinking the Tory party has ditched Thatcher''s socially and economically divisive policies would be quickly disabused of the notion by a piece of Financial Times research published this week. The FT is subscription-only so I am not allowed to do a link but this (from a publication that is printed on pink but hardly of the left) is the essence of it:

A raft of benefit changes, several of them introduced this month, will take £19bn a year out of working-age social security between now and 2015, with some areas of the north losing five times more than wealthier parts of the South.

The accompanying table shows losses per working age adult a year ranging from £177 to £915. Most of Norfolk is below the halfway point of £546 (figures in the £300s and £400s) but Great Yarmouth is at £613.

 

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

Moving to the present, anyone thinking the Tory party has ditched Thatcher''s socially and economically divisive policies would be quickly disabused of the notion by a piece of Financial Times research published this week. The FT is subscription-only so I am not allowed to do a link but this (from a publication that is printed on pink but hardly of the left) is the essence of it:

A raft of benefit changes, several of them introduced this month, will take £19bn a year out of working-age social security between now and 2015, with some areas of the north losing five times more than wealthier parts of the South.

The accompanying table shows losses per working age adult a year ranging from £177 to £915. Most of Norfolk is below the halfway point of £546 (figures in the £300s and £400s) but Great Yarmouth is at £613.

 

[/quote]

 

Any policy which limits abuses of the welfare system, that makes it more difficult to choose benefits as a lifestyle choice will impact greater on poorer areas and effect the North more than the South. A ''fair'' welfare system will also be a ''socially divisve'' one, on one side will be those who need and are entilied to proper state support and those that want to work, on the other side will be those who wish to milk the system for all they can. Personally I would prefer the welfare bugdet not to be cut but better directed to those who need it but understand why cuts are required and one could argue that the current welfare system is just as socially divisive in that it has bred a culture of resentment with people who need it being tarred with the same brush as those that want it.

 

 

[walkern canary 0]

[quote user="Rock The Boat"]

My dad was a milkman and I was one of eight kids. Born into a poor rural Norfolk family, I had the very good fortune to be at school during the ''60s when a bright working class kid had the opportunity to get into a grammar school and receive an academic education. I was lucky enough to go onto university and given my working class upbringing it was no surprise that I was a left wing radical at the time.Returning to Norwich for my first job I joined the local trade union branch and became an activist. Soon I was involved in regional, and then national trade union activity by around 1978. I had of course joined the Norwich Labour party and was active in the northern wards of the city, pounding the pavements at election time, leafleting, delivering monthly newsletters, listening to grievances of my neighbours and generally being an all round busybody.

The 1979 election was a big moment for us and I spent a lot of time with David Ennals as a gopher on the campaign trail.When we lost, the consensus in the pub was that Margaret Thatcher wouldn''t last long seeing as she was a woman. Such was the attitudes in the 70''s. 

However I was already becoming increasingly uncomfortable by what I was finding in the left, particularly in the Trade Unions. The unions behaved totally irresponsible without any thought whatsoever of the damage they caused within society. It was always about getting a bigger pay-packet and cushier working conditions. It didn''t bother them that the country was without electricity for days on end. That factories and offices were closed down through the three-day working week. That the poorest in society were the ones who suffered the most. Believe me, there is no altruism or community in the trade union movement. It''s all about ''I''m alright jack and sod the rest''.

Another thing that soon became very clear to me was that the Left was made up of three broad groups of people. There were those who joined the Labour movement because they wanted to change the world for the better, the do-gooders. Nice people, and very principled. Unfortunately, they are not the dominant group of the Left. That belonged to people whom I saw as ''square-pegs in round holes''. Mostly social misfits who were unable to progress their careers in the normal way and turned to unionism as an alternative way to power or status. They saw employers as the enemy, jobs as a necessary evil. They loved the nationalised industries because they feed at the trough of government subsidies. In steel foundries, the mines, car manufacturing, shipbuilding they produced shoddy goods, uncompetetively priced and were able to do so because of national trade barriers and weak government who kowtowed to the bullying unions.

But as bad as this was, there was a third and much more sinister group of people in the Left. These were, and still are, the communists and anarchists. Their motivation is class war. They wish to destroy the democratic state and replace it with an anarchist society. If you think this is far-fetched then you need to ask yourselves, who is behind the outbreaks of rioting that stain this country in the past few decades. The 2011 London riots, G7 riots, Poll Tax riots, Miner''s strike, Broadwater Farm, Toxteth and all the other examples of major civil disturbances are infiltrated by and radicalised by the communist and anarchist entryists to the Labour party and Trade Union movement. Today they are at it again, ''celebrating'' the death of Margaret Thatcher and threatening more civil disturbances on our streets.

In the early 80''s I lived in Liverpool and was knocking off some local bird. Part of the price was that I had to attend many private meetings of anarchists and communists, they thought I was one of them, and listened to many conversations about their plans to exploit local grievances and encourage rioting and looting. Scarily many of these people had links to the IRA movement. Where ever it was possible to destroy the State, they would become involved.

Margaret Thatcher was the only Prime Minister we ever had who was prepared to take on these anarchist and communists that had infiltrated the labour movement. Before her, every other PM had sought to appease the Left and as a result our nation just sunk lower and lower in terms of economic performance and as a world power. Even in her own Cabinet, when she came to power, were against upsetting the unions. But she was smart enough to know that the people who wanted to destroy the country were not representative of the majority. In fact, the ordinary working man and woman of Britain had far more in common with Mrs. Thatcher than the likes of Michael Foot, and they voted for her in droves.

Thatcher won many battles but she didn''t win the war. Her victory was imperfect and there were many things that still needed doing when she was ousted by her own party in 1990. She made mistakes. Signing the Maastricht treaty taking us into closer political union with Europe was perhaps the biggest. But her achievements hugely outweighed her faults. She turned round the economic fortunes of the country and brought prosperity to the people. She changed the mindset of millions of people from bloody-mindedness into a ''can-do'' attitude.  Alongside Ronald Reagan she fought against international communism and brought freedom to millions of people in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. She faced down dictatorships such as those in Argentina and defended the right of people to choose their own destinies.

She did this as a woman at a time when many people were dismissive about the abilities of a woman to govern. She was against the principles of left-wing feminism but probably did for the cause of woman''s rights within society than any political or social movement achieved. She did this when faced with total opposition of the left - who ironically maintained many of her policies when they first came to power. She did this when faced with the out-of-touch patriarchs within her own party, again it is ironic that it was these people and not the electorate that removed her from power.  

Without a shadow of doubt, Margaret Thatcher was the greatest peacetime Prime Minster this country has ever had. She is renown and adored by millions throughout the world. Her legacy of individual liberty coupled with personal responsibility still reverberates around the globe. Personally I was inspired by her and realised that left-wing policies would never improve the lot of ordinary working people. We must always be vigilant against those who wish to bring down this country once again.

[/quote]That was an interesting read ,thanks for posting

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user=" Badger"]Thanks Ricardo. This is an incredibly complex area and combines a number of areas but is more to do with fixed exchange rates than the government’s solvency. You state that:

“The subsequent run on the pound showed that our creditors were not confident we could pay”

This was NOT a lack of confidence about Britain’s capacity to meet its expenditure commitments but that it would be unable to sustain the external value of the pound in line with the Bretton Woods agreement (a return to a modified Gold Standard). Poor balance of payments figures puts pressure on the pound because supply of pounds increase and demand for them decreases.

Aside from increasing interest rates, the main weapon for maintaining the external value of the currency is through “open market operations” when the government buys its own currency to increase demand for it and hopefully maintain the price. Obviously, this is very demanding on a nation’s reserves and cannot be continued indefinitely. “Runs” on the currency occur when the market judges that a government is trying to sustain a currency beyond the capacity of its reserves.

It was a similar picture on Black Wednesday 1992, when Britain was forced out of the ERM despite raising interest rates by more than 5% in ONE DAY and spending over £3 billion trying to maintain the pound’s value. Using this as an example, once again, there is no evidence that Mrs T reversed “managed decline.”

I would also date the origins of Britain’s economic decline well before WW2. As is often the case, the seeds of the decline, were a former strength. “Protected markets” available because of empire had been one of the factors enabling rapid industrial expansion during the nineteenth century but the same protection meant that GB industry was not faced with the same competitive pressures as other industrial nations and became backwards industrially. This can be dated back to the second half of the nineteenth century, when in many respects, Germany superseded the UK as an economic power.

Finally, we are not in a government debt crisis – that is a political creation. As you have seen government debt levels are quite low by historical standards and international comparisons. It will become a crisis if we don''t restore economic growth.

But yes, the consensus has broken down, it will be interesting to see what emerges![/quote]

Re the balance of payments crisis and the draining away of our dollar reserves in the early 1950''s you will find some interesting figures here:-http://eusi.jp/content_en/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/workingpaper_e-2012-01.pdfAlso re Britain''s economic decline, yes I quite agree it started well before WW2. In some respects we had been overtaken by Germany in the late 19th century and of course by the USA by 1914. If you have not read it before then I would recommend a reading of "The Pride and The Fall" trilogy by Correlli Barnett. Book 2, "The Audit of War ( The illusion of Britain as a great nation) destroys many of the myths that my post war generation were taught as facts.Now back to the question of growth. Yes, a combination of growth and gentle inflation will certainly shrink our debt going forward but growth for Britain in isolation from the rest of the large economies is impossible. Someone has to be the buyer of last resort for the rest to grow. In the downturn of the early 90''s it was the USA but they now have their own debt problems. Unless those countries running a large surplus decide to take some of the strain then I don''t see where growth is coming from. Doses of QE stopped a nose dive into depression but each successive dose seems less and less effective. At some stage the stimulus is going to have to be withdrawn and interest rates allowed to normalise but nobody seems to know how or when.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="Rock The Boat"]

My dad was a milkman and I was one of eight kids. Born into a poor rural Norfolk family, I had the very good fortune to be at school during the ''60s when a bright working class kid had the opportunity to get into a grammar school and receive an academic education. I was lucky enough to go onto university and given my working class upbringing it was no surprise that I was a left wing radical at the time.Returning to Norwich for my first job I joined the local trade union branch and became an activist. Soon I was involved in regional, and then national trade union activity by around 1978. I had of course joined the Norwich Labour party and was active in the northern wards of the city, pounding the pavements at election time, leafleting, delivering monthly newsletters, listening to grievances of my neighbours and generally being an all round busybody.

The 1979 election was a big moment for us and I spent a lot of time with David Ennals as a gopher on the campaign trail.When we lost, the consensus in the pub was that Margaret Thatcher wouldn''t last long seeing as she was a woman. Such was the attitudes in the 70''s. 

However I was already becoming increasingly uncomfortable by what I was finding in the left, particularly in the Trade Unions. The unions behaved totally irresponsible without any thought whatsoever of the damage they caused within society. It was always about getting a bigger pay-packet and cushier working conditions. It didn''t bother them that the country was without electricity for days on end. That factories and offices were closed down through the three-day working week. That the poorest in society were the ones who suffered the most. Believe me, there is no altruism or community in the trade union movement. It''s all about ''I''m alright jack and sod the rest''.

Another thing that soon became very clear to me was that the Left was made up of three broad groups of people. There were those who joined the Labour movement because they wanted to change the world for the better, the do-gooders. Nice people, and very principled. Unfortunately, they are not the dominant group of the Left. That belonged to people whom I saw as ''square-pegs in round holes''. Mostly social misfits who were unable to progress their careers in the normal way and turned to unionism as an alternative way to power or status. They saw employers as the enemy, jobs as a necessary evil. They loved the nationalised industries because they feed at the trough of government subsidies. In steel foundries, the mines, car manufacturing, shipbuilding they produced shoddy goods, uncompetetively priced and were able to do so because of national trade barriers and weak government who kowtowed to the bullying unions.

But as bad as this was, there was a third and much more sinister group of people in the Left. These were, and still are, the communists and anarchists. Their motivation is class war. They wish to destroy the democratic state and replace it with an anarchist society. If you think this is far-fetched then you need to ask yourselves, who is behind the outbreaks of rioting that stain this country in the past few decades. The 2011 London riots, G7 riots, Poll Tax riots, Miner''s strike, Broadwater Farm, Toxteth and all the other examples of major civil disturbances are infiltrated by and radicalised by the communist and anarchist entryists to the Labour party and Trade Union movement. Today they are at it again, ''celebrating'' the death of Margaret Thatcher and threatening more civil disturbances on our streets.

In the early 80''s I lived in Liverpool and was knocking off some local bird. Part of the price was that I had to attend many private meetings of anarchists and communists, they thought I was one of them, and listened to many conversations about their plans to exploit local grievances and encourage rioting and looting. Scarily many of these people had links to the IRA movement. Where ever it was possible to destroy the State, they would become involved.

Margaret Thatcher was the only Prime Minister we ever had who was prepared to take on these anarchist and communists that had infiltrated the labour movement. Before her, every other PM had sought to appease the Left and as a result our nation just sunk lower and lower in terms of economic performance and as a world power. Even in her own Cabinet, when she came to power, were against upsetting the unions. But she was smart enough to know that the people who wanted to destroy the country were not representative of the majority. In fact, the ordinary working man and woman of Britain had far more in common with Mrs. Thatcher than the likes of Michael Foot, and they voted for her in droves.

Thatcher won many battles but she didn''t win the war. Her victory was imperfect and there were many things that still needed doing when she was ousted by her own party in 1990. She made mistakes. Signing the Maastricht treaty taking us into closer political union with Europe was perhaps the biggest. But her achievements hugely outweighed her faults. She turned round the economic fortunes of the country and brought prosperity to the people. She changed the mindset of millions of people from bloody-mindedness into a ''can-do'' attitude.  Alongside Ronald Reagan she fought against international communism and brought freedom to millions of people in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. She faced down dictatorships such as those in Argentina and defended the right of people to choose their own destinies.

She did this as a woman at a time when many people were dismissive about the abilities of a woman to govern. She was against the principles of left-wing feminism but probably did for the cause of woman''s rights within society than any political or social movement achieved. She did this when faced with total opposition of the left - who ironically maintained many of her policies when they first came to power. She did this when faced with the out-of-touch patriarchs within her own party, again it is ironic that it was these people and not the electorate that removed her from power.  

Without a shadow of doubt, Margaret Thatcher was the greatest peacetime Prime Minster this country has ever had. She is renown and adored by millions throughout the world. Her legacy of individual liberty coupled with personal responsibility still reverberates around the globe. Personally I was inspired by her and realised that left-wing policies would never improve the lot of ordinary working people. We must always be vigilant against those who wish to bring down this country once again.

[/quote]An interesting read SOG, that will make uncomfortable reading for some on the left. It explains why many decent and well meaning people were driven out of the Labour Party during that time and why it took so long for Labour to become electable again.

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Rock The Boat"]

My dad was a milkman and I was one of eight kids. Born into a poor rural Norfolk family, I had the very good fortune to be at school during the ''60s when a bright working class kid had the opportunity to get into a grammar school and receive an academic education. I was lucky enough to go onto university and given my working class upbringing it was no surprise that I was a left wing radical at the time.
Returning to Norwich for my first job I joined the local trade union branch and became an activist. Soon I was involved in regional, and then national trade union activity by around 1978. I had of course joined the Norwich Labour party and was active in the northern wards of the city, pounding the pavements at election time, leafleting, delivering monthly newsletters, listening to grievances of my neighbours and generally being an all round busybody.

The 1979 election was a big moment for us and I spent a lot of time with David Ennals as a gopher on the campaign trail.
When we lost, the consensus in the pub was that Margaret Thatcher wouldn''t last long seeing as she was a woman. Such was the attitudes in the 70''s. 

However I was already becoming increasingly uncomfortable by what I was finding in the left, particularly in the Trade Unions. The unions behaved totally irresponsible without any thought whatsoever of the damage they caused within society. It was always about getting a bigger pay-packet and cushier working conditions. It didn''t bother them that the country was without electricity for days on end. That factories and offices were closed down through the three-day working week. That the poorest in society were the ones who suffered the most. Believe me, there is no altruism or community in the trade union movement. It''s all about ''I''m alright jack and sod the rest''.

Another thing that soon became very clear to me was that the Left was made up of three broad groups of people. There were those who joined the Labour movement because they wanted to change the world for the better, the do-gooders. Nice people, and very principled. Unfortunately, they are not the dominant group of the Left. That belonged to people whom I saw as ''square-pegs in round holes''. Mostly social misfits who were unable to progress their careers in the normal way and turned to unionism as an alternative way to power or status. They saw employers as the enemy, jobs as a necessary evil. They loved the nationalised industries because they feed at the trough of government subsidies. In steel foundries, the mines, car manufacturing, shipbuilding they produced shoddy goods, uncompetetively priced and were able to do so because of national trade barriers and weak government who kowtowed to the bullying unions.

But as bad as this was, there was a third and much more sinister group of people in the Left. These were, and still are, the communists and anarchists. Their motivation is class war. They wish to destroy the democratic state and replace it with an anarchist society. If you think this is far-fetched then you need to ask yourselves, who is behind the outbreaks of rioting that stain this country in the past few decades. The 2011 London riots, G7 riots, Poll Tax riots, Miner''s strike, Broadwater Farm, Toxteth and all the other examples of major civil disturbances are infiltrated by and radicalised by the communist and anarchist entryists to the Labour party and Trade Union movement. Today they are at it again, ''celebrating'' the death of Margaret Thatcher and threatening more civil disturbances on our streets.

In the early 80''s I lived in Liverpool and was knocking off some local bird. Part of the price was that I had to attend many private meetings of anarchists and communists, they thought I was one of them, and listened to many conversations about their plans to exploit local grievances and encourage rioting and looting. Scarily many of these people had links to the IRA movement. Where ever it was possible to destroy the State, they would become involved.

Margaret Thatcher was the only Prime Minister we ever had who was prepared to take on these anarchist and communists that had infiltrated the labour movement. Before her, every other PM had sought to appease the Left and as a result our nation just sunk lower and lower in terms of economic performance and as a world power. Even in her own Cabinet, when she came to power, were against upsetting the unions. But she was smart enough to know that the people who wanted to destroy the country were not representative of the majority. In fact, the ordinary working man and woman of Britain had far more in common with Mrs. Thatcher than the likes of Michael Foot, and they voted for her in droves.

Thatcher won many battles but she didn''t win the war. Her victory was imperfect and there were many things that still needed doing when she was ousted by her own party in 1990. She made mistakes. Signing the Maastricht treaty taking us into closer political union with Europe was perhaps the biggest. But her achievements hugely outweighed her faults. She turned round the economic fortunes of the country and brought prosperity to the people. She changed the mindset of millions of people from bloody-mindedness into a ''can-do'' attitude.  Alongside Ronald Reagan she fought against international communism and brought freedom to millions of people in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. She faced down dictatorships such as those in Argentina and defended the right of people to choose their own destinies.

She did this as a woman at a time when many people were dismissive about the abilities of a woman to govern. She was against the principles of left-wing feminism but probably did for the cause of woman''s rights within society than any political or social movement achieved. She did this when faced with total opposition of the left - who ironically maintained many of her policies when they first came to power. She did this when faced with the out-of-touch patriarchs within her own party, again it is ironic that it was these people and not the electorate that removed her from power.  

Without a shadow of doubt, Margaret Thatcher was the greatest peacetime Prime Minster this country has ever had. She is renown and adored by millions throughout the world. Her legacy of individual liberty coupled with personal responsibility still reverberates around the globe. Personally I was inspired by her and realised that left-wing policies would never improve the lot of ordinary working people. We must always be vigilant against those who wish to bring down this country once again.

[/quote]

An interesting read SOG, that will make uncomfortable reading for some on the left. It explains why many decent and well meaning people were driven out of the Labour Party during that time and why it took so long for Labour to become electable again.
[/quote]

 

Ricardo, I think you were quite obviously meaning to respond to Rock The Boat, not SOV ( although he has some interestings views also ). RTB, I also found your input very interesting and it was obviously also written from the heart. This tends to be the learning experiences of many who have had exposure to trade unions. With respect to your comment on the three groups that make up the Left, apart from the groups you identify there is, of course, an even larger and more dangerous group, made up of those follow blindly for the rest of their days without truly questioning.

[ricardo 7,384]

Sorry Yankee, yes my response was meant for RTB. Thanks for the correction.

[SHRIMPER 328]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

 

Ricardo, I think you were quite obviously meaning to respond to Rock The Boat, not SOV ( although he has some interestings views also ). RTB, I also found your input very interesting and it was obviously also written from the heart. This tends to be the learning experiences of many who have had exposure to trade unions. With respect to your comment on the three groups that make up the Left, apart from the groups you identify there is, of course, an even larger and more dangerous group, made up of those follow blindly for the rest of their days without truly questioning.

[/quote]

It could also have been written by a Tory stooge!

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,413]

Good, heartfelt post RTB.

[Joanna Grey 0]

LEW wrote;

"..probably save billions in unnecessary expenditure on people with no right to health access ...".

Complete rubbish , like the rest of your alleged facts. Even the Daily Heil puts the figure at 200 million , and as you would expect they made that up. "

You have no idea of the true figure, just like your comrades that are supposed to be supplying the informtaion. Of course the NHS will err on the low side when supplying figures as they wish to save themselves from embarrassment and no doubt there is a lot of undetected fraud that would boost those ''official'' figures as well.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="SHRIMPER"][quote user="YankeeCanary"]

 

Ricardo, I think you were quite obviously meaning to respond to Rock The Boat, not SOV ( although he has some interestings views also ). RTB, I also found your input very interesting and it was obviously also written from the heart. This tends to be the learning experiences of many who have had exposure to trade unions. With respect to your comment on the three groups that make up the Left, apart from the groups you identify there is, of course, an even larger and more dangerous group, made up of those follow blindly for the rest of their days without truly questioning.

[/quote]

It could also have been written by a Tory stooge!

[/quote]A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolvesBertrand de Jouvenal

[Andy Larkin 15]

I''d imagine one man''s view of "the left" can be equally compared to another man''s of "the right", unless you happen to think that ''the right wing'' of British politics (or world if you want to go there) don''t do extremists?A massively sweeping generalisation… of which there seems to be a lot on this thread.

[Badger 2,405]

Thanks for the link Ricardo.

I suspect that we would disagree over the way to attain growth. I''m not sure that there will be much "action" before the German federal elections in September unless "events" force their hands. In the end, I suspect that there will be a widespread softening of the line on austerity as well as fiscal stimulus. There already some signs of this as our own government postpones its self-imposed schedule for a balanced budget (sensibly).

The US has called this week for the EU to boost demand.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22079217

You may also have seen this about Ireland and Portugal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22116270

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="Andy Larkin"]I''d imagine one man''s view of "the left" can be equally compared to another man''s of "the right", unless you happen to think that ''the right wing'' of British politics (or world if you want to go there) don''t do extremists?A massively sweeping generalisation… of which there seems to be a lot on this thread.

[/quote]Indeed it can Andy, but what we have heard from RTB is a first hand account of the "entry-ism" that made the Labour Party unelectable in the 1980''s. No doubt there are extremists in all parties but I have yet to hear any convincing argument that the BNP or other Facist groups have infiltrated the Tory party to that kind of extent.If there is anyone out there who can give us an inside view from the other other end of the spectrum I''m sure we would all be interested to hear it.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="Rock The Boat"]

My dad was a milkman and I was one of eight kids. Born into a poor rural Norfolk family, I had the very good fortune to be at school during the ''60s when a bright working class kid had the opportunity to get into a grammar school and receive an academic education. I was lucky enough to go onto university and given my working class upbringing it was no surprise that I was a left wing radical at the time.
Returning to Norwich for my first job I joined the local trade union branch and became an activist. Soon I was involved in regional, and then national trade union activity by around 1978. I had of course joined the Norwich Labour party and was active in the northern wards of the city, pounding the pavements at election time, leafleting, delivering monthly newsletters, listening to grievances of my neighbours and generally being an all round busybody.

The 1979 election was a big moment for us and I spent a lot of time with David Ennals as a gopher on the campaign trail.
When we lost, the consensus in the pub was that Margaret Thatcher wouldn''t last long seeing as she was a woman. Such was the attitudes in the 70''s. 

However I was already becoming increasingly uncomfortable by what I was finding in the left, particularly in the Trade Unions. The unions behaved totally irresponsible without any thought whatsoever of the damage they caused within society. It was always about getting a bigger pay-packet and cushier working conditions. It didn''t bother them that the country was without electricity for days on end. That factories and offices were closed down through the three-day working week. That the poorest in society were the ones who suffered the most. Believe me, there is no altruism or community in the trade union movement. It''s all about ''I''m alright jack and sod the rest''.

Another thing that soon became very clear to me was that the Left was made up of three broad groups of people. There were those who joined the Labour movement because they wanted to change the world for the better, the do-gooders. Nice people, and very principled. Unfortunately, they are not the dominant group of the Left. That belonged to people whom I saw as ''square-pegs in round holes''. Mostly social misfits who were unable to progress their careers in the normal way and turned to unionism as an alternative way to power or status. They saw employers as the enemy, jobs as a necessary evil. They loved the nationalised industries because they feed at the trough of government subsidies. In steel foundries, the mines, car manufacturing, shipbuilding they produced shoddy goods, uncompetetively priced and were able to do so because of national trade barriers and weak government who kowtowed to the bullying unions.

But as bad as this was, there was a third and much more sinister group of people in the Left. These were, and still are, the communists and anarchists. Their motivation is class war. They wish to destroy the democratic state and replace it with an anarchist society. If you think this is far-fetched then you need to ask yourselves, who is behind the outbreaks of rioting that stain this country in the past few decades. The 2011 London riots, G7 riots, Poll Tax riots, Miner''s strike, Broadwater Farm, Toxteth and all the other examples of major civil disturbances are infiltrated by and radicalised by the communist and anarchist entryists to the Labour party and Trade Union movement. Today they are at it again, ''celebrating'' the death of Margaret Thatcher and threatening more civil disturbances on our streets.

In the early 80''s I lived in Liverpool and was knocking off some local bird. Part of the price was that I had to attend many private meetings of anarchists and communists, they thought I was one of them, and listened to many conversations about their plans to exploit local grievances and encourage rioting and looting. Scarily many of these people had links to the IRA movement. Where ever it was possible to destroy the State, they would become involved.

Margaret Thatcher was the only Prime Minister we ever had who was prepared to take on these anarchist and communists that had infiltrated the labour movement. Before her, every other PM had sought to appease the Left and as a result our nation just sunk lower and lower in terms of economic performance and as a world power. Even in her own Cabinet, when she came to power, were against upsetting the unions. But she was smart enough to know that the people who wanted to destroy the country were not representative of the majority. In fact, the ordinary working man and woman of Britain had far more in common with Mrs. Thatcher than the likes of Michael Foot, and they voted for her in droves.

Thatcher won many battles but she didn''t win the war. Her victory was imperfect and there were many things that still needed doing when she was ousted by her own party in 1990. She made mistakes. Signing the Maastricht treaty taking us into closer political union with Europe was perhaps the biggest. But her achievements hugely outweighed her faults. She turned round the economic fortunes of the country and brought prosperity to the people. She changed the mindset of millions of people from bloody-mindedness into a ''can-do'' attitude.  Alongside Ronald Reagan she fought against international communism and brought freedom to millions of people in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. She faced down dictatorships such as those in Argentina and defended the right of people to choose their own destinies.

She did this as a woman at a time when many people were dismissive about the abilities of a woman to govern. She was against the principles of left-wing feminism but probably did for the cause of woman''s rights within society than any political or social movement achieved. She did this when faced with total opposition of the left - who ironically maintained many of her policies when they first came to power. She did this when faced with the out-of-touch patriarchs within her own party, again it is ironic that it was these people and not the electorate that removed her from power.  

Without a shadow of doubt, Margaret Thatcher was the greatest peacetime Prime Minster this country has ever had. She is renown and adored by millions throughout the world. Her legacy of individual liberty coupled with personal responsibility still reverberates around the globe. Personally I was inspired by her and realised that left-wing policies would never improve the lot of ordinary working people. We must always be vigilant against those who wish to bring down this country once again.

[/quote]

 

Well we might know eachother Rocky. Although I seem to remember you liked to pretend to know me and my family last summer. Could it have been for real??

 

Early 80s I was active in local union and political groups. Secretary of chemical section GMWU/GMB, also foot soldier at election time and delegate to that wonderful body known as trades council! Remember one speaker there being one of the women from Greenham Common. In the late 70s/early 80s we did have the far left and some of it was too far left for me. But the Tories were right wing then too. In fact the gap between the parties was so wide the gang of three could park their bus in the huge centre space between the two of them. Of course they never had the policies to get amuch of a strong hold and the big two later came together and squeezed Woy Shirley and that other guy out again. New labour was formed to try and reclaim that cetre ground so the Tories reacted by moving in too. For many years the big two''s policy remained in the centreground whch didn''t please the far right and certainly didn''t please the far left who don''t see themselves as new labour anyway. Now I detect the tories are shifting back towards the right How will labour react? Will they repeat the 70/80s and go left or will they stay put and try and tempt the more moderate tories? 

 

Fatcha? We didn''t suffer much in these parts Rocky. Take a trip to Liverpool and ask there..

 

 

[SHRIMPER 328]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Fatcha? We didn''t suffer much in these parts Rocky. Take a trip to Liverpool and ask there..

Or Durham or Yorkshire or Derbyshire or any other community''s that was ripped apart an discarded.

[/quote]

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="Rock The Boat"]

My dad was a milkman and I was one of eight kids. Born into a poor rural Norfolk family, I had the very good fortune to be at school during the ''60s when a bright working class kid had the opportunity to get into a grammar school and receive an academic education. I was lucky enough to go onto university and given my working class upbringing it was no surprise that I was a left wing radical at the time.
Returning to Norwich for my first job I joined the local trade union branch and became an activist. Soon I was involved in regional, and then national trade union activity by around 1978. I had of course joined the Norwich Labour party and was active in the northern wards of the city, pounding the pavements at election time, leafleting, delivering monthly newsletters, listening to grievances of my neighbours and generally being an all round busybody.

The 1979 election was a big moment for us and I spent a lot of time with David Ennals as a gopher on the campaign trail.
When we lost, the consensus in the pub was that Margaret Thatcher wouldn''t last long seeing as she was a woman. Such was the attitudes in the 70''s. 

However I was already becoming increasingly uncomfortable by what I was finding in the left, particularly in the Trade Unions. The unions behaved totally irresponsible without any thought whatsoever of the damage they caused within society. It was always about getting a bigger pay-packet and cushier working conditions. It didn''t bother them that the country was without electricity for days on end. That factories and offices were closed down through the three-day working week. That the poorest in society were the ones who suffered the most. Believe me, there is no altruism or community in the trade union movement. It''s all about ''I''m alright jack and sod the rest''.

Another thing that soon became very clear to me was that the Left was made up of three broad groups of people. There were those who joined the Labour movement because they wanted to change the world for the better, the do-gooders. Nice people, and very principled. Unfortunately, they are not the dominant group of the Left. That belonged to people whom I saw as ''square-pegs in round holes''. Mostly social misfits who were unable to progress their careers in the normal way and turned to unionism as an alternative way to power or status. They saw employers as the enemy, jobs as a necessary evil. They loved the nationalised industries because they feed at the trough of government subsidies. In steel foundries, the mines, car manufacturing, shipbuilding they produced shoddy goods, uncompetetively priced and were able to do so because of national trade barriers and weak government who kowtowed to the bullying unions.

But as bad as this was, there was a third and much more sinister group of people in the Left. These were, and still are, the communists and anarchists. Their motivation is class war. They wish to destroy the democratic state and replace it with an anarchist society. If you think this is far-fetched then you need to ask yourselves, who is behind the outbreaks of rioting that stain this country in the past few decades. The 2011 London riots, G7 riots, Poll Tax riots, Miner''s strike, Broadwater Farm, Toxteth and all the other examples of major civil disturbances are infiltrated by and radicalised by the communist and anarchist entryists to the Labour party and Trade Union movement. Today they are at it again, ''celebrating'' the death of Margaret Thatcher and threatening more civil disturbances on our streets.

In the early 80''s I lived in Liverpool and was knocking off some local bird. Part of the price was that I had to attend many private meetings of anarchists and communists, they thought I was one of them, and listened to many conversations about their plans to exploit local grievances and encourage rioting and looting. Scarily many of these people had links to the IRA movement. Where ever it was possible to destroy the State, they would become involved.

Margaret Thatcher was the only Prime Minister we ever had who was prepared to take on these anarchist and communists that had infiltrated the labour movement. Before her, every other PM had sought to appease the Left and as a result our nation just sunk lower and lower in terms of economic performance and as a world power. Even in her own Cabinet, when she came to power, were against upsetting the unions. But she was smart enough to know that the people who wanted to destroy the country were not representative of the majority. In fact, the ordinary working man and woman of Britain had far more in common with Mrs. Thatcher than the likes of Michael Foot, and they voted for her in droves.

Thatcher won many battles but she didn''t win the war. Her victory was imperfect and there were many things that still needed doing when she was ousted by her own party in 1990. She made mistakes. Signing the Maastricht treaty taking us into closer political union with Europe was perhaps the biggest. But her achievements hugely outweighed her faults. She turned round the economic fortunes of the country and brought prosperity to the people. She changed the mindset of millions of people from bloody-mindedness into a ''can-do'' attitude.  Alongside Ronald Reagan she fought against international communism and brought freedom to millions of people in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. She faced down dictatorships such as those in Argentina and defended the right of people to choose their own destinies.

She did this as a woman at a time when many people were dismissive about the abilities of a woman to govern. She was against the principles of left-wing feminism but probably did for the cause of woman''s rights within society than any political or social movement achieved. She did this when faced with total opposition of the left - who ironically maintained many of her policies when they first came to power. She did this when faced with the out-of-touch patriarchs within her own party, again it is ironic that it was these people and not the electorate that removed her from power.  

Without a shadow of doubt, Margaret Thatcher was the greatest peacetime Prime Minster this country has ever had. She is renown and adored by millions throughout the world. Her legacy of individual liberty coupled with personal responsibility still reverberates around the globe. Personally I was inspired by her and realised that left-wing policies would never improve the lot of ordinary working people. We must always be vigilant against those who wish to bring down this country once again.

[/quote]

Fantastic post RTB which only bears out what the majority that were around when Thatcher was in power are thinking.  RIP Maggie.

[Rock The Boat 1,329]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

10m quid for Fatcha''s funeral Rickyyyyyyyyyyyyy!! I bet she got a Parker pen off Parky for enquiring!

 

I reckon people like Paul Moy and Crafty should stump up[:O]

 

 

[/quote]

And 50m quid of our taxes each and every day sent to the EU, Nutty. They spend 10m before the Eurocrats have drunk their morning latte..

[Rock The Boat 1,329]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Rock The Boat"]

My dad was a milkman and I was one of eight kids. Born into a poor rural Norfolk family, I had the very good fortune to be at school during the ''60s when a bright working class kid had the opportunity to get into a grammar school and receive an academic education. I was lucky enough to go onto university and given my working class upbringing it was no surprise that I was a left wing radical at the time.Returning to Norwich for my first job I joined the local trade union branch and became an activist. Soon I was involved in regional, and then national trade union activity by around 1978. I had of course joined the Norwich Labour party and was active in the northern wards of the city, pounding the pavements at election time, leafleting, delivering monthly newsletters, listening to grievances of my neighbours and generally being an all round busybody.

The 1979 election was a big moment for us and I spent a lot of time with David Ennals as a gopher on the campaign trail.When we lost, the consensus in the pub was that Margaret Thatcher wouldn''t last long seeing as she was a woman. Such was the attitudes in the 70''s. 

However I was already becoming increasingly uncomfortable by what I was finding in the left, particularly in the Trade Unions. The unions behaved totally irresponsible without any thought whatsoever of the damage they caused within society. It was always about getting a bigger pay-packet and cushier working conditions. It didn''t bother them that the country was without electricity for days on end. That factories and offices were closed down through the three-day working week. That the poorest in society were the ones who suffered the most. Believe me, there is no altruism or community in the trade union movement. It''s all about ''I''m alright jack and sod the rest''.

Another thing that soon became very clear to me was that the Left was made up of three broad groups of people. There were those who joined the Labour movement because they wanted to change the world for the better, the do-gooders. Nice people, and very principled. Unfortunately, they are not the dominant group of the Left. That belonged to people whom I saw as ''square-pegs in round holes''. Mostly social misfits who were unable to progress their careers in the normal way and turned to unionism as an alternative way to power or status. They saw employers as the enemy, jobs as a necessary evil. They loved the nationalised industries because they feed at the trough of government subsidies. In steel foundries, the mines, car manufacturing, shipbuilding they produced shoddy goods, uncompetetively priced and were able to do so because of national trade barriers and weak government who kowtowed to the bullying unions.

But as bad as this was, there was a third and much more sinister group of people in the Left. These were, and still are, the communists and anarchists. Their motivation is class war. They wish to destroy the democratic state and replace it with an anarchist society. If you think this is far-fetched then you need to ask yourselves, who is behind the outbreaks of rioting that stain this country in the past few decades. The 2011 London riots, G7 riots, Poll Tax riots, Miner''s strike, Broadwater Farm, Toxteth and all the other examples of major civil disturbances are infiltrated by and radicalised by the communist and anarchist entryists to the Labour party and Trade Union movement. Today they are at it again, ''celebrating'' the death of Margaret Thatcher and threatening more civil disturbances on our streets.

In the early 80''s I lived in Liverpool and was knocking off some local bird. Part of the price was that I had to attend many private meetings of anarchists and communists, they thought I was one of them, and listened to many conversations about their plans to exploit local grievances and encourage rioting and looting. Scarily many of these people had links to the IRA movement. Where ever it was possible to destroy the State, they would become involved.

Margaret Thatcher was the only Prime Minister we ever had who was prepared to take on these anarchist and communists that had infiltrated the labour movement. Before her, every other PM had sought to appease the Left and as a result our nation just sunk lower and lower in terms of economic performance and as a world power. Even in her own Cabinet, when she came to power, were against upsetting the unions. But she was smart enough to know that the people who wanted to destroy the country were not representative of the majority. In fact, the ordinary working man and woman of Britain had far more in common with Mrs. Thatcher than the likes of Michael Foot, and they voted for her in droves.

Thatcher won many battles but she didn''t win the war. Her victory was imperfect and there were many things that still needed doing when she was ousted by her own party in 1990. She made mistakes. Signing the Maastricht treaty taking us into closer political union with Europe was perhaps the biggest. But her achievements hugely outweighed her faults. She turned round the economic fortunes of the country and brought prosperity to the people. She changed the mindset of millions of people from bloody-mindedness into a ''can-do'' attitude.  Alongside Ronald Reagan she fought against international communism and brought freedom to millions of people in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. She faced down dictatorships such as those in Argentina and defended the right of people to choose their own destinies.

She did this as a woman at a time when many people were dismissive about the abilities of a woman to govern. She was against the principles of left-wing feminism but probably did for the cause of woman''s rights within society than any political or social movement achieved. She did this when faced with total opposition of the left - who ironically maintained many of her policies when they first came to power. She did this when faced with the out-of-touch patriarchs within her own party, again it is ironic that it was these people and not the electorate that removed her from power.  

Without a shadow of doubt, Margaret Thatcher was the greatest peacetime Prime Minster this country has ever had. She is renown and adored by millions throughout the world. Her legacy of individual liberty coupled with personal responsibility still reverberates around the globe. Personally I was inspired by her and realised that left-wing policies would never improve the lot of ordinary working people. We must always be vigilant against those who wish to bring down this country once again.

[/quote]

 

Well we might know eachother Rocky. Although I seem to remember you liked to pretend to know me and my family last summer. Could it have been for real??

 

Early 80s I was active in local union and political groups. Secretary of chemical section GMWU/GMB, also foot soldier at election time and delegate to that wonderful body known as trades council! Remember one speaker there being one of the women from Greenham Common. In the late 70s/early 80s we did have the far left and some of it was too far left for me. But the Tories were right wing then too. In fact the gap between the parties was so wide the gang of three could park their bus in the huge centre space between the two of them. Of course they never had the policies to get amuch of a strong hold and the big two later came together and squeezed Woy Shirley and that other guy out again. New labour was formed to try and reclaim that cetre ground so the Tories reacted by moving in too. For many years the big two''s policy remained in the centreground whch didn''t please the far right and certainly didn''t please the far left who don''t see themselves as new labour anyway. Now I detect the tories are shifting back towards the right How will labour react? Will they repeat the 70/80s and go left or will they stay put and try and tempt the more moderate tories? 

 

Fatcha? We didn''t suffer much in these parts Rocky. Take a trip to Liverpool and ask there..

 

 

[/quote]

Most Friday nights I spent at the Labour club, Nutty, so we may well have known each other back in those days. Had you bought me a pint, I certainly would have remembered...

What I do remember is that in the 1983 election Margaret Thatcher won a landslide with the support of working class voters, particularly in the south, while Labour thought the way to go was to move further to the left, as you rightly describe. That turned out to be a disastrous mistake - Foot and Kinnock costing them millions of votes.

Today I''m no longer a Conservative, despite being called a Tory stooge on here, since the Tory party has moved to challenge Labour in the centre ground after Tony Blair shifted Labour to the right. As Nigel Farage says, there isn''t a fag paper of difference between the main parties these days.

Interestingly, I moved to Liverpool to work in 1983 and remember the Toxteth riots well, the locals referred to them as the Liverpool 8 riots - I think it was something to do with the postcode and not about 8 Scouse martyrs...

My judgement towards Liverpool is probably clouded by the fact that one day I had my car nicked outside the Catholic cathedral in that not so fine city. I reported it to the police and within half an hour they called me to say my motor had been found down a side alley not far away, with the windows smashed in. When I went to pick it up, the car had been nicked a second time..... I never did see it again.... Oh yes and getting punched in the face at an Everton game didn''t endear me much to those ''loveable'' old Northern rogues.

But what I do remember about my time in Liverpool was what great social housing they had in Toxteth. A mix of family homes and low-rise flats, plenty of green spaces and quiet streets where kids could play. Obviously a lot of taxpayers money was being spent by the Tory government on the Scousers. Heseltine introduced his inner-city initiatives in response to the riots so even more public money came Liverpool''s way. I was extremely envious that we never got that level of public spending in Norwich and Norfolk. It was as if we were punished for our good behaviour while the Scouser''s were rewarded with more handouts for burning down their neighbourhood.

That was another lesson I learned. If you keep people in welfare dependency they will never break out of the cycle of unemployment and low personal ambition. That was something that Thatcher understood, too. There''s no great pride in saying how much families are receiving in benefits from this or that government, or how much benefits have been cut by such and such a government - and then accusing them of being uncaring. Bandying about figures as we see in may posts misses the point. Shouldn''t we be more proud of being able to take care of our families without any handouts whatsoever? It makes no sense in taxing people to the hilt with the left hand and then giving them a handout with the right hand.

Now not even Margaret Thatcher tried to privatise the health service, and even someone like myself who believes in free market competition, does not believe in NHS privatisation. But at least Maggie understood that the service was not delivering on its objectives and tried to create an internal market within the system. Unfortunately the reactionary forces within the NHS oppose reform (same applies with education, police, local government and most public services)  as they don''t want to see their cozy setup disturbed.  The NHS won''t be effective until governments stop funding the NHS directly, and start funding the users of the NHS, so that patients are able to choose their own medical care - but that''s getting away from the subject of Margaret Thatcher....

 

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="Rock The Boat"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Rock The Boat"]

My dad was a milkman and I was one of eight kids. Born into a poor rural Norfolk family, I had the very good fortune to be at school during the ''60s when a bright working class kid had the opportunity to get into a grammar school and receive an academic education. I was lucky enough to go onto university and given my working class upbringing it was no surprise that I was a left wing radical at the time.
Returning to Norwich for my first job I joined the local trade union branch and became an activist. Soon I was involved in regional, and then national trade union activity by around 1978. I had of course joined the Norwich Labour party and was active in the northern wards of the city, pounding the pavements at election time, leafleting, delivering monthly newsletters, listening to grievances of my neighbours and generally being an all round busybody.

The 1979 election was a big moment for us and I spent a lot of time with David Ennals as a gopher on the campaign trail.
When we lost, the consensus in the pub was that Margaret Thatcher wouldn''t last long seeing as she was a woman. Such was the attitudes in the 70''s. 

However I was already becoming increasingly uncomfortable by what I was finding in the left, particularly in the Trade Unions. The unions behaved totally irresponsible without any thought whatsoever of the damage they caused within society. It was always about getting a bigger pay-packet and cushier working conditions. It didn''t bother them that the country was without electricity for days on end. That factories and offices were closed down through the three-day working week. That the poorest in society were the ones who suffered the most. Believe me, there is no altruism or community in the trade union movement. It''s all about ''I''m alright jack and sod the rest''.

Another thing that soon became very clear to me was that the Left was made up of three broad groups of people. There were those who joined the Labour movement because they wanted to change the world for the better, the do-gooders. Nice people, and very principled. Unfortunately, they are not the dominant group of the Left. That belonged to people whom I saw as ''square-pegs in round holes''. Mostly social misfits who were unable to progress their careers in the normal way and turned to unionism as an alternative way to power or status. They saw employers as the enemy, jobs as a necessary evil. They loved the nationalised industries because they feed at the trough of government subsidies. In steel foundries, the mines, car manufacturing, shipbuilding they produced shoddy goods, uncompetetively priced and were able to do so because of national trade barriers and weak government who kowtowed to the bullying unions.

But as bad as this was, there was a third and much more sinister group of people in the Left. These were, and still are, the communists and anarchists. Their motivation is class war. They wish to destroy the democratic state and replace it with an anarchist society. If you think this is far-fetched then you need to ask yourselves, who is behind the outbreaks of rioting that stain this country in the past few decades. The 2011 London riots, G7 riots, Poll Tax riots, Miner''s strike, Broadwater Farm, Toxteth and all the other examples of major civil disturbances are infiltrated by and radicalised by the communist and anarchist entryists to the Labour party and Trade Union movement. Today they are at it again, ''celebrating'' the death of Margaret Thatcher and threatening more civil disturbances on our streets.

In the early 80''s I lived in Liverpool and was knocking off some local bird. Part of the price was that I had to attend many private meetings of anarchists and communists, they thought I was one of them, and listened to many conversations about their plans to exploit local grievances and encourage rioting and looting. Scarily many of these people had links to the IRA movement. Where ever it was possible to destroy the State, they would become involved.

Margaret Thatcher was the only Prime Minister we ever had who was prepared to take on these anarchist and communists that had infiltrated the labour movement. Before her, every other PM had sought to appease the Left and as a result our nation just sunk lower and lower in terms of economic performance and as a world power. Even in her own Cabinet, when she came to power, were against upsetting the unions. But she was smart enough to know that the people who wanted to destroy the country were not representative of the majority. In fact, the ordinary working man and woman of Britain had far more in common with Mrs. Thatcher than the likes of Michael Foot, and they voted for her in droves.

Thatcher won many battles but she didn''t win the war. Her victory was imperfect and there were many things that still needed doing when she was ousted by her own party in 1990. She made mistakes. Signing the Maastricht treaty taking us into closer political union with Europe was perhaps the biggest. But her achievements hugely outweighed her faults. She turned round the economic fortunes of the country and brought prosperity to the people. She changed the mindset of millions of people from bloody-mindedness into a ''can-do'' attitude.  Alongside Ronald Reagan she fought against international communism and brought freedom to millions of people in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. She faced down dictatorships such as those in Argentina and defended the right of people to choose their own destinies.

She did this as a woman at a time when many people were dismissive about the abilities of a woman to govern. She was against the principles of left-wing feminism but probably did for the cause of woman''s rights within society than any political or social movement achieved. She did this when faced with total opposition of the left - who ironically maintained many of her policies when they first came to power. She did this when faced with the out-of-touch patriarchs within her own party, again it is ironic that it was these people and not the electorate that removed her from power.  

Without a shadow of doubt, Margaret Thatcher was the greatest peacetime Prime Minster this country has ever had. She is renown and adored by millions throughout the world. Her legacy of individual liberty coupled with personal responsibility still reverberates around the globe. Personally I was inspired by her and realised that left-wing policies would never improve the lot of ordinary working people. We must always be vigilant against those who wish to bring down this country once again.

[/quote]

 

Well we might know eachother Rocky. Although I seem to remember you liked to pretend to know me and my family last summer. Could it have been for real??

 

Early 80s I was active in local union and political groups. Secretary of chemical section GMWU/GMB, also foot soldier at election time and delegate to that wonderful body known as trades council! Remember one speaker there being one of the women from Greenham Common. In the late 70s/early 80s we did have the far left and some of it was too far left for me. But the Tories were right wing then too. In fact the gap between the parties was so wide the gang of three could park their bus in the huge centre space between the two of them. Of course they never had the policies to get amuch of a strong hold and the big two later came together and squeezed Woy Shirley and that other guy out again. New labour was formed to try and reclaim that cetre ground so the Tories reacted by moving in too. For many years the big two''s policy remained in the centreground whch didn''t please the far right and certainly didn''t please the far left who don''t see themselves as new labour anyway. Now I detect the tories are shifting back towards the right How will labour react? Will they repeat the 70/80s and go left or will they stay put and try and tempt the more moderate tories? 

 

Fatcha? We didn''t suffer much in these parts Rocky. Take a trip to Liverpool and ask there..

 

 

[/quote]

Most Friday nights I spent at the Labour club, Nutty, so we may well have known each other back in those days. Had you bought me a pint, I certainly would have remembered...

What I do remember is that in the 1983 election Margaret Thatcher won a landslide with the support of working class voters, particularly in the south, while Labour thought the way to go was to move further to the left, as you rightly describe. That turned out to be a disastrous mistake - Foot and Kinnock costing them millions of votes.

Today I''m no longer a Conservative, despite being called a Tory stooge on here, since the Tory party has moved to challenge Labour in the centre ground after Tony Blair shifted Labour to the right. As Nigel Farage says, there isn''t a fag paper of difference between the main parties these days.

Interestingly, I moved to Liverpool to work in 1983 and remember the Toxteth riots well, the locals referred to them as the Liverpool 8 riots - I think it was something to do with the postcode and not about 8 Scouse martyrs...

My judgement towards Liverpool is probably clouded by the fact that one day I had my car nicked outside the Catholic cathedral in that not so fine city. I reported it to the police and within half an hour they called me to say my motor had been found down a side alley not far away, with the windows smashed in. When I went to pick it up, the car had been nicked a second time..... I never did see it again.... Oh yes and getting punched in the face at an Everton game didn''t endear me much to those ''loveable'' old Northern rogues.

But what I do remember about my time in Liverpool was what great social housing they had in Toxteth. A mix of family homes and low-rise flats, plenty of green spaces and quiet streets where kids could play. Obviously a lot of taxpayers money was being spent by the Tory government on the Scousers. Heseltine introduced his inner-city initiatives in response to the riots so even more public money came Liverpool''s way. I was extremely envious that we never got that level of public spending in Norwich and Norfolk. It was as if we were punished for our good behaviour while the Scouser''s were rewarded with more handouts for burning down their neighbourhood.

That was another lesson I learned. If you keep people in welfare dependency they will never break out of the cycle of unemployment and low personal ambition. That was something that Thatcher understood, too. There''s no great pride in saying how much families are receiving in benefits from this or that government, or how much benefits have been cut by such and such a government - and then accusing them of being uncaring. Bandying about figures as we see in may posts misses the point. Shouldn''t we be more proud of being able to take care of our families without any handouts whatsoever? It makes no sense in taxing people to the hilt with the left hand and then giving them a handout with the right hand.

Now not even Margaret Thatcher tried to privatise the health service, and even someone like myself who believes in free market competition, does not believe in NHS privatisation. But at least Maggie understood that the service was not delivering on its objectives and tried to create an internal market within the system. Unfortunately the reactionary forces within the NHS oppose reform (same applies with education, police, local government and most public services)  as they don''t want to see their cozy setup disturbed.  The NHS won''t be effective until governments stop funding the NHS directly, and start funding the users of the NHS, so that patients are able to choose their own medical care - but that''s getting away from the subject of Margaret Thatcher....

 

[/quote]

 

Ding Dong........

 

Round two....

 

You truely are a child of Thatcher Rocky! You cannot just take the lowest denominater and make it the common denominator. Life just isn''t like that. Liverpool suffers for this and always has. The tarring of people with the same brush as the lowest caused 96 deaths at Hillsborough. Yet you carry on by tarring the good people of Liverpoool with car theft and benefit life choice. The real world isn''t like that. What about all the dockers who bought into the home ownership opportunities championed bt Thatcher? They were left with huge negative equities on properties they couldn''t afford to live in.

 

None of this surprises me since your forum outburst about me and my family last year. Being judgemental seems to be your stock in trade.

 

 

[Rock The Boat 1,329]

What I could never understand about the Liverpool that I saw, is why they would want to burn down their own community? It wasn''t outsiders coming in to set fire to homes and shops, it was the people who lived there that inflicted damage on themselves.

It''s a pattern that repeats itself time and again. I don''t recall the good people of Norfolk going down to Tottenham in 2011 and destroying the community, it was the locals who did that to themselves. Why should we have sympathy for them when they make their own neighbours homeless and wipe out the local economy and thus causing unemployment?

And in between the Toxteth riots of the early 1980''s and the London riots thirty years later there have been numerous examples of local communities destroyed down in the name of class warfare. And they expect the rest of us to bail them out with our taxes for which the rest of us have to go to work to pay.

During Margaret Thatcher''s tenure those miners who wanted to work were harassed and bullied by the union boys. Had their windows smashed in and families threatened with violence if they wanted to do a days work. Not just miners. Flying pickets tried to stop workers at power plants from going to work, tried to stop truck drivers from making deliveries.

Fortunately we had a Prime Minister who was prepared to stand up to the anarchists. The result was a country that went from economic decline into economic boom. We are now living in a country with a much higher standard of living than we had during the 1970''s and we can thank Thatcher for that. 

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="Rock The Boat"]

What I could never understand about the Liverpool that I saw, is why they would want to burn down their own community? It wasn''t outsiders coming in to set fire to homes and shops, it was the people who lived there that inflicted damage on themselves.

It''s a pattern that repeats itself time and again. I don''t recall the good people of Norfolk going down to Tottenham in 2011 and destroying the community, it was the locals who did that to themselves. Why should we have sympathy for them when they make their own neighbours homeless and wipe out the local economy and thus causing unemployment?

And in between the Toxteth riots of the early 1980''s and the London riots thirty years later there have been numerous examples of local communities destroyed down in the name of class warfare. And they expect the rest of us to bail them out with our taxes for which the rest of us have to go to work to pay.

During Margaret Thatcher''s tenure those miners who wanted to work were harassed and bullied by the union boys. Had their windows smashed in and families threatened with violence if they wanted to do a days work. Not just miners. Flying pickets tried to stop workers at power plants from going to work, tried to stop truck drivers from making deliveries.

Fortunately we had a Prime Minister who was prepared to stand up to the anarchists. The result was a country that went from economic decline into economic boom. We are now living in a country with a much higher standard of living than we had during the 1970''s and we can thank Thatcher for that. 

[/quote]You are, indeed, Eric Pickles and I claim my five pounds.A damascene conversion by anybody''s standards.

[Larson E Whipsnade 0]

Rock The Boat

 "  I don''t recall the good people of Norfolk going down to Tottenham in 2011 and destroying the community..."Quite so , after all when was the last time you saw the poor and down trodden of Burnham Market rioting ? These people know how to behave. Keep up the good work of posting provocative rubbish in the hope of winding someone up.

[Joanna Grey 0]

Rock the Boat wrote;

"It wasn''t outsiders coming in to set fire to homes and shops, it was the people who lived there that inflicted damage on themselves.

It''s a pattern that repeats itself time and again. I don''t recall the good people of Norfolk going down to Tottenham in 2011 and destroying the community, it was the locals who did that to themselves. Why should we have sympathy for them when they make their own neighbours homeless and wipe out the local economy and thus causing unemployment?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-magistrates-court-list#zoomed-picture

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="Rock The Boat"]

What I could never understand about the Liverpool that I saw, is why they would want to burn down their own community? It wasn''t outsiders coming in to set fire to homes and shops, it was the people who lived there that inflicted damage on themselves.

It''s a pattern that repeats itself time and again. I don''t recall the good people of Norfolk going down to Tottenham in 2011 and destroying the community, it was the locals who did that to themselves. Why should we have sympathy for them when they make their own neighbours homeless and wipe out the local economy and thus causing unemployment?

And in between the Toxteth riots of the early 1980''s and the London riots thirty years later there have been numerous examples of local communities destroyed down in the name of class warfare. And they expect the rest of us to bail them out with our taxes for which the rest of us have to go to work to pay.

During Margaret Thatcher''s tenure those miners who wanted to work were harassed and bullied by the union boys. Had their windows smashed in and families threatened with violence if they wanted to do a days work. Not just miners. Flying pickets tried to stop workers at power plants from going to work, tried to stop truck drivers from making deliveries.

Fortunately we had a Prime Minister who was prepared to stand up to the anarchists. The result was a country that went from economic decline into economic boom. We are now living in a country with a much higher standard of living than we had during the 1970''s and we can thank Thatcher for that. 

[/quote]

 

Yep.. all of them! Unless of course you''re at it again...

 

Heaven forbid!

 

Have you ever been on strike Rocky?

 

 

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

yeah I agree with you nutty on that one. Nobody could attempt to claim that everyone from the local community took part in either the Liverpool or Tottenham riots and therefore there are local victims of the trouble, both in need and deserving of help to rebuild. If 200 youths smashed up Norwich City Centre Rock, would you not feel entiled to investment to rebuild it again or would you say I did it to myself?

 

 

[First Wazzock 902]

Have we got onto the bit about why we should re-nationalise the railways so the tax payer can save a bomb?

[Rock The Boat 1,329]

[quote user="Larson E Whipsnade"]

Rock The Boat

 "  I don''t recall the good people of Norfolk going down to Tottenham in 2011 and destroying the community..."Quite so , after all when was the last time you saw the poor and down trodden of Burnham Market rioting ? These people know how to behave. Keep up the good work of posting provocative rubbish in the hope of winding someone up.[/quote]

Are you claiming that the London riots of 2011 took place because of poverty and the people are downtrodden? The riots were an opportunist criminal act where homes and local businesses were destroyed simply because people thought they could get away with it. Why do you support criminals?