Maggie: What would be an apt tribute?

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

As you are posting about the Falklands War and the defence of British citizens.....I was surprised to find out about the arms going from Israel via Peru to Argentina during the war!

[Monty13 2,231]

That doesn''t make it the policy of the UK government though does it purple, and as far as I am aware it wasn''t Thatchers personal policy either. The FCO was in talks exploring options and tacit arrangement was agreed upon, but this was, as far as I am aware, not public knowledge at the time and not the policy of the UK government. Is anyone really surprised that a diplomatic solution was looked into by the FCO? But in reality they were proposals, one of several discussed solutions available to the PM, and they would have never made it to the floor.

[Monty13 2,231]

It''s not that surprising Tanglible, one of the main reasons we were exploring diplomatic options with them was because we wanted them to buy our arms.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="City1st"]

As to football this has nothing to do with football, bar her ignorant ideas about making fans have ID cards to attend games.

[/quote]

Thats what I thought at the time but we seem to be content with our season tickets that have customer numbers on them and club memberships.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Monty13"]It''s not that surprising Tanglible, one of the main reasons we were exploring diplomatic options with them was because we wanted them to buy our arms.[/quote]

I think the Argies had a couple of our old destroyers or frigates I can''t remember which.

What I was surprised about was the role of Israel  (BTW. Peru was suppose to be neutral) .

 

 

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Monty13"]It''s not that surprising Tanglible, one of the main reasons we were exploring diplomatic options with them was because we wanted them to buy our arms.[/quote]

I think the Argies had a couple of our old destroyers or frigates I can''t remember which.

What I was surprised about was the role of Israel  (BTW. Peru was suppose to be neutral) .

 

 

 

[Monty13 2,231]

Santísima Trinidad and the Hercules Tangible. They were both Batch 1 style Type 42 Destroyers built in the UK specifically for Argentina and delivered in the late 70''s.

They have been ripped out and converted to Transport ships. The Santísima Trinidad unfortunately sank at her moorings in January (shame), the Argentinians even tried to suggest it was sabotage!

[ron obvious 1,502]

kick it off wrote :

"There''s no "Mis-truth" in the fact she supported Pinochet whilst he committed genocide. Nor that she engaged with Apartheid regime when the world was trying to enforce sanctions against them. Nor in the fact she had Fincucane murdered. Nor in the fact that she enforced the illegal shoot-to-kill policy to quell the Republicans in Ireland. Nor in the fact she used police brutality to quash any protests about anything.

And in addition to ALL OF THAT... She cost Norwich City a place in Europe, and covered up Hillsborough.

The odd mis-truth does not sanctify her when the facts about her are widely available. Despicable woman."

There is a whole load of "Miss-truth" in trying to portray her as a bullying, sadistic leader who took delight in making people suffer. If you dug into the actions that government agencies undertook under ANY Prime Minister (& I suspect any leader in the world) you would unearth some horrific abuses. "The fact she had Finucane murdered" indeed. I wonder what occurred under, say, Jimmy Carter''s watch?

If you lived through the period when the Unions were attempting to run the country, you''d know we were going to Hell in a Handcart. A lot of Union leaders'' agenda was to bring down capitalism by wrecking the economy. And they were succeeding.

Her style was totally abhorrent to me; hectoring, patronising, smug, delivered with a vile, pretentious accent which attempted to sound oh-so-superior.

BUT that doesn''t matter. She did things that needed to be done - & some that probably didn''t (mostly with the benefit of hindsight) - & was a lot more prone to self doubt & sensitivity than those that took her at face value would ever believe. John Major & William Hague''s comments are very informative regarding their dealings with her.

A civil servant once contrasted her attitude to Shirley Williams'' . Apparently Williams would listen to his advice regarding her policy, smile sweetly nod her head & not change a damn thing; Thatcher would harangue him about why he was wrong, how mistaken his views were etc., then when the policy came out he would find some of his ideas incorporated therein.

[Bill 1,788]

"respectfully suggest that Germany was in a far worse position"

 

And so were far less inclined to expect a ''land fit for heroes''. And lest not forget that it was not all altruism, there were good long term reasons for having a healthy (and so more efficient) workforce - and for having a more efficient system that delivered that end product.

 

When WWI began it was found that a third of the British workforce were unfit to even be killed for their country. The welfare state was not much more than a more rigorous approach to further erradicating that problem - and Thatchers years were no more than a brutal re-ordering of that system to make it cheaper to run. No more.

 

 

 

 

 

[gorlestongirl 0]

Apparetntly, she has just passed an ATOS return to work medical.

[Badger 2,405]

Ricardo, there isn''t much difference between the "state" of the UK and the German economy.

a) GDP per capita, a pretty good indicator of the health of an economy, the IMF says that in 2011 Germany''s GDP per capita was $38,077 (17th) and ours was $36,522 (22nd).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

b) Using the IMF''s estimates in 2012, it is a similar picture with regards debt. Germany''s was 83.04% and the UK''s was 88.68%. (Incidentally, historically, this is quite a low level of debt.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

By both measures, which are well recognised by economists, there is very little difference. The reality is rather different from the picture that is painted in the press.

[Herman 9,756]

"gorlestongirl"Apparetntly, she has just passed an ATOS return to work medical.

:-)

[Monty13 2,231]

Many are making the argument though that the Welfare State was all about making a healthy Britain, yet we are also behind Germany in life expectancy Badger.

So what those figures show is Germany is a richer country, with less debt and a longer life expectancy.

The UK unemployment rate is however 7.4% compared to compared to the German 5.4%.

I''m not saying anybody is right or wrong here, the margins as you say are relatively small, but we are behind Germany in all of them.

[Mister Chops 7]

I think we should all wear ID cards and bring our own fence.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user=" Badger"]Ricardo, there isn''t much difference between the "state" of the UK and the German economy.

a) GDP per capita, a pretty good indicator of the health of an economy, the IMF says that in 2011 Germany''s GDP per capita was $38,077 (17th) and ours was $36,522 (22nd).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

b) Using the IMF''s estimates in 2012, it is a similar picture with regards debt. Germany''s was 83.04% and the UK''s was 88.68%. (Incidentally, historically, this is quite a low level of debt.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

By both measures, which are well recognised by economists, there is very little difference. The reality is rather different from the picture that is painted in the press.[/quote]All the more remarkable for a country that was totally devastated in 1945.We drive about in BMW''s and Mercedes not Morris Minors nor Austin 7''sWithout knowing your history of WW2 it would be hard to tell now, just who were the victors and who were the vanquished.

[Bill 1,788]

err, a slight flaw

 

in that Germany also has a welfare state

 

and I''m not sure what life expectancy has to do with the aims of the welfare state either

 

there are also far too many variables concernng markets and each countries location to them to hold up these type of figures as any kind of meaningful analysis

 

 

[im spartacus canary 0]

We will never see her like again and more is he pity , the only people who long for uncompetitive  nationalised industries propped up by government money and ran by tinpot union leaders are those that are too lazy or useless to be accountable for themselves in the real world . RIP Maggie.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="City1st"]

err, a slight flaw

 

in that Germany also has a welfare state

 

and I''m not sure what life expectancy has to do with the aims of the welfare state either

 

there are also far too many variables concernng markets and each countries location to them to hold up these type of figures as any kind of meaningful analysis

 

 

[/quote]Whether your politics are left or right, one thing is beyond doubt. We are unlikely to ever see again a grocers daughter and Grammar school girl rise to the highest political position in the land.Love them or hate them and their are plenty on both sides of the spectrum, only two political figures from the 20th century have been accorded a state funeral.Winston ChurchillMaggie Thatcher.

[smooth 114]

There should not be a tribute at the football and I am certain there won''t.

A woman and a time of politics that goes against everything I believe in, I never want to see politics like that again. The last two years have been long enough

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="Dr Crafty Canary"]A truly great PM whatever your individual political feelings. Saved this nation from the looney left and reminded Scargill and co just who runs the country - the elected government of the day. Did she make mistakes? Of course she did however when this country was in crisis she was just what was needed. Once the crisis was over her footing was less sure just as Churchill was a much better wartime PM than he was in peacetime.

Eternal rest grant unto her O Lord,

let perpetual light shine upon her.

may she rest in peace, Amen.[/quote]

This country would be a far more vibrant place right now if she had not been in power. She destroyed British industry.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="lincoln canary"][quote user="Dr Crafty Canary"]A truly great PM whatever your individual political feelings. Saved this nation from the looney left and reminded Scargill and co just who runs the country - the elected government of the day. Did she make mistakes? Of course she did however when this country was in crisis she was just what was needed. Once the crisis was over her footing was less sure just as Churchill was a much better wartime PM than he was in peacetime.

Eternal rest grant unto her O Lord,

let perpetual light shine upon her.

may she rest in peace, Amen.[/quote]

This country would be a far more vibrant place right now if she had not been in power. She destroyed British industry.[/quote]

But not as much as Tony Blair

Manufacturing as a percentage of GDP:

1979: 17.62%1990: 15.18%2010: 9.68%Aint facts a bastard?[;)]

[Monty13 2,231]

Yes it does have a welfare state, and it has had one far longer than us. Hence why I didn''t understand why the post war British Welfare state was being heralded as some advantage over Germany.

also:

"And so were far less inclined to expect a ''land fit for heroes''. And lest not forget that it was not all altruism, there were good long term reasons for having a healthy (and so more efficient) workforce - and for having a more efficient system that delivered that end product.

When WWI began it was found that a third of the British workforce were unfit to even be killed for their country. The welfare state was not much more than a more rigorous approach to further erradicating that problem - and Thatchers years were no more than a brutal re-ordering of that system to make it cheaper to run. No more."

You were the one advocating the fitness and health of the population through the British Welfare state. I was just pointing out that we are still dying before Germans. A good indication of average Health of a nation.

[Badger 2,405]

Ricardo, two questions - 1/ what is the source of the data you quote? 2/ What was manufacturing as a percentage of GDP in 1997, when Blair came to power (not that I have much time for him either!) rather than 1990?

[Devils Advocate. 0]

Stand in front of the ground and look towards Morrisons. Once upon a time, before Mrs T, there were factories stretched before you, where people made things. Firms such as Boulton and Paul. Look toward Thorpe, Lawrence and Scotts were a mass employer of hundreds of people. Until Mrs T and her cohorts came along. That is Mrs T''s legacy and maybe the reason why football should remain silent. If you can''t say anything nice, say nothing at all and don''t play into the hands of the do-gooders.

[Crafty Canary 495]

Nutty wrote: Exactly! Nothing!! So that''s great comfort for those who suffered when she waged war on her own people.

Do you seriously believe Scargill considered it nothing to go from one of the most powerful Union bosses of his time to a has been. What did he achieve after the miners'' strike? Bugger all. His was a purely politically motivated strike and she had the will to smash him.

She didn''t wage war on people, she waged war on those who would keep people downtrodden. Socialists can never escape their favourite creed of "We know how to spend your money better than you do." Why do they want a bloated welfare state? it gives them power over the people by making them dependent on the state. The Guardianistas cannot stand the fact that most working people actually support government efforts to reign in the welfare state. How do they explain away that thousands are not marching in the streets in protest? They say they are either stupid or don''t read the Guardian. Brilliant! Now they are disgusted that this outrageous government has actually introduced a limit to state benefits of £26000 a year. How awful of them.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user=" Badger"]Ricardo, two questions - 1/ what is the source of the data you quote? 2/ What was manufacturing as a percentage of GDP in 1997, when Blair came to power (not that I have much time for him either!) rather than 1990?[/quote]Here we go Badgerhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/datablog/2013/apr/08/britain-changed-margaret-thatcher-charts

better ask the Guardian why they picked those dates.

[Crafty Canary 495]

Kick it off wrote:She was a despicable woman and ruined the lives of millions, had people murdered, engaged with the racist Apartheid politicians and used the police to do her bidding in the most disgusting of fashions.

What evidence do you have that she had people murdered?

Why did Nelson Mandela praise her for her role in bringing about the downfall of apartheid?

How disgusting of her to use the police to uphold the law of the land and not let the likes of Scargill to hold the country to ransom.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="Devils Advocate."]Stand in front of the ground and look towards Morrisons. Once upon a time, before Mrs T, there were factories stretched before you, where people made things. Firms such as Boulton and Paul. Look toward Thorpe, Lawrence and Scotts were a mass employer of hundreds of people. Until Mrs T and her cohorts came along. That is Mrs T''s legacy and maybe the reason why football should remain silent. If you can''t say anything nice, say nothing at all and don''t play into the hands of the do-gooders.[/quote]

Perhaps you should ask yourself why they couldn''t make a profit and stay in business. At one time we built the best motor bikes in the world then along came the Japanese and built them better and cheaper. We built and exported loads of cars in the 60''s, then along came the Japs and Germans and built them better and cheaper. All a long time before Mrs T came on the scene.The problems with British Industry in the 70''s weren''t political, they were low investment in skills and plant, one eyed unions and piss poor management.Still, a lot easy to blame "Fatcha".

[Blofield Canary 11]

Maybe we should restrict this discussion to people who are old enough to have lived through the years leading up to Thatcher and actually saw the huge benefits she brought to us all. Perhaps some of the infantile comments being made on here would not be made if the younger ones amongst us were around then when the miners and other public utilities held us to ransom and we had to make do with only having electicity on every other day. Imagine that - no xbox or Playstation on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday. No heat  or hot food either.

The miners were blind in their faith to Scargill who led them into a battle with the government they were never going to win. The mines were losing millions which the UK taxpayers were subsidising.

How many of the people on here spouting bile now own therir own home?  Something else brought to many by Thatcher. And if we want to keep this thred to football how many of you want to go back to watching football like we had to before she made football get itself in order. Its easy to moan about id cards (which never happened) but she was behind the drive to rid the game of hooliganism and introduction of familly friendly stadia.

And to answer the OP question - football should do nothing to recognise her achievments. Football can pay its respect the same as everyone else who wishes to when she gets full honours at her funeral.

[Rolf Harris 31]

[quote user="Blofield Canary"]

Maybe we should restrict this discussion to people who are old enough to have lived through the years leading up to Thatcher and actually saw the huge benefits she brought to us all. Perhaps some of the infantile comments being made on here would not be made if the younger ones amongst us were around then when the miners and other public utilities held us to ransom and we had to make do with only having electicity on every other day. Imagine that - no xbox or Playstation on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday. No heat  or hot food either.

The miners were blind in their faith to Scargill who led them into a battle with the government they were never going to win. The mines were losing millions which the UK taxpayers were subsidising.

How many of the people on here spouting bile now own therir own home?  Something else brought to many by Thatcher. And if we want to keep this thred to football how many of you want to go back to watching football like we had to before she made football get itself in order. Its easy to moan about id cards (which never happened) but she was behind the drive to rid the game of hooliganism and introduction of familly friendly stadia.

And to answer the OP question - football should do nothing to recognise her achievments. Football can pay its respect the same as everyone else who wishes to when she gets full honours at her funeral.

[/quote]And what party do you support?