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nevermind, neoliberalism has had it

should we now leave Afghanistan

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The mission, whatever it entails this year, is coming to an end, and unless we want to be associated with the vile behaviour by our allies, we best leave and bring those still alive home. Some 22 days ago after soldiers got killed in response to the Quoran burning, general Allen said this“Now is not the time for revenge for the deaths of two US soldiers

killed in Thursday’s riots, he said’ resist whatever urge they might

have to strike back. There will be moments like this when you are

searching for the meaning of this loss and there will be moments like

this when your emotions are governed by anger and a desire to strike

back. Now is not the time for revenge, now is the time to look deep into

your souls, remember your mission and discipline, remember who you

are”.

Now some might have taken it to heart and others did not, for them it must have been more like ''wait a while'' and then commit a revenge attack.According to the US version, disputed in every point by Karzai, the villagers and victims, there were more than one soldier. He was declared carzy with PTSD, and taken away from his fellow troopers.he was not mad enough to make a choice as to who to kill and he was not alone. Two women were raped, the massdacre committed and the bodies burned, how daft do they think we are to believe it to be the work of one crazy gunman?

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[quote user="Joanna Grey"]I suggest that we leave the EU instead.[/quote]Looking at the performance of the Euro since the ECB paid banks to keep alive, including our own major banks, it has become apparent that we do not participate in it much more. Ghaza''s US residents and aid workers have been urged to leave, could that be a prelude to another attack on women and children?

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What would be the benefit of leaving either?

To leave Afghanistan now would mean we lost over 400 troops for nothing.Stay there til the end and try and get the job done as well as possible.

Where will pulling out of the EU leave us?A small,isolated country on the periphery of anything important?Will the EU still trade with us?Will the French and Germans be glad to see the back of us?Better off in it annoying the French,than being ignored out of it.

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[quote user="Herman "]

What would be the benefit of leaving either?

To leave Afghanistan now would mean we lost over 400 troops for nothing.Stay there til the end and try and get the job done as well as possible.

Where will pulling out of the EU leave us?A small,isolated country on the periphery of anything important?Will the EU still trade with us?Will the French and Germans be glad to see the back of us?Better off in it annoying the French,than being ignored out of it.

[/quote]Whilst I very much agree with your point about Europe, Herman, we must be within it and use the opportunities to enable and sustain our future markets. I disagree with the ''mission'' in Afghanistan, what was it again? The ever changing policies and guidelines as to what we are actually doing there seems as nebulous as before. I''m not prepared to see soldiers die for the sake of supporting some US global strategy to control other countries resources, by any means. It is not in our interest to take part in this colonisation drive which is now focussing on Africa and its resource rich countries.After 12 years, far from carrying on, we should look at what we wanted to achieve vs. what actually has happened on the ground, take a tally before we commit, if we commit. We should realise that we are not welcome anymore by the population after years of occupying their country, that it is now more than just the Taliban we are up against and that we have no intention to take part in a future civil war, a very likely outcome.If we commit we should have a time frame in mind, 2014 might just be too long. How many more young lives have to be lost in a situation that is at best resting and which will soon morph into a Pakistan vs. Afghanistan conflict.Before we carry on fighting with unregulated weapons like drones, waving off all talks on their intrepid abilities to breach states sovereign territories, we must realise that these sort of stealth weapojns could easily be used against us one future day, what I''m saying is that there are problems with our conduct as it stands, problems we should not run away from or postpone.Now why we could not have such a debate and discussion on the old forums, over and above the reporting style ( might be the wrong word for it but I''m feeling calm) of issues in the EDP, I dunno.

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[quote user="Herman "]

Where will pulling out of the EU leave us?A small,isolated country on the periphery of anything important?Will the EU still trade with us?Will the French and Germans be glad to see the back of us?Better off in it annoying the French,than being ignored out of it.

[/quote]I cant see hoe leaving the EU will effect trade ,the Norwegiens and the swiss both trade with the EU but are not full EU members ,the common market in theory was a good idea ,but the EU political experiment is another thing ,why are there two EU parliment buildings for example ?? why does the whole of the EU have to up sticks once a month to move from Brussels to Strasbourge ??it is bad enough being dictated to by some halfwits in Westminster ,and now we have another bunch in Brussels/Strasbourge doing the same

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Even though i am more on the pro rather than sceptic European i have to agree with you on the whole,money wasting,gravy train that is the EU parliament and MEPs.It is in desparate need of a Europe wide,Telegraph style expose on all of the money that is getting ''lost'' in the system.

 

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[quote user="walkern canary"][quote user="Herman "]

Where will pulling out of the EU leave us?A small,isolated country on the periphery of anything important?Will the EU still trade with us?Will the French and Germans be glad to see the back of us?Better off in it annoying the French,than being ignored out of it.

[/quote]I cant see hoe leaving the EU will effect trade ,the Norwegiens and the swiss both trade with the EU but are not full EU members ,the common market in theory was a good idea ,but the EU political experiment is another thing ,why are there two EU parliment buildings for example ?? why does the whole of the EU have to up sticks once a month to move from Brussels to Strasbourge ??it is bad enough being dictated to by some halfwits in Westminster ,and now we have another bunch in Brussels/Strasbourge doing the same [/quote]I can see you point of view, Walkern, but you have to consider that standing outside an EU, after Cameron throwing a paddy and decades of whinging from the sidelines for this, that and the other, that some EU partners had had enough of hearing it. So ye the markets will be available, but because we are refusing to play a full part, we must not be suprised if other counteries within the club will get slightly better, more favourable access to the markets.I agree on the political mess, the CAP was alwasy an open invitation for fraud and interpreation, looking at the large multinationals and agericultural concerns reaping the subsedies here will make thios opbvious. To have appointed commissioners has made the EU a multinationals breakfast, lobby fodder, hence the 30.000 plus EU Parliament lobbyists. David Cameron  is not alone in feeding the donors. To get equal access to markets by standing apart is near impossible, would you not agree? especially not if you made yourself a nuisance.

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[quote user="Joanna Grey"]Leaving the EU will not cost us anything.[/quote]]

 

It will. British farmers receive over two billion in subsidies from the EU each year.  UK farms incomes for 2011 averaged about £25, 000 .... four fifths of which is made up of EU subsidy. There would be no farming without the EU in this country.

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[quote user="Larson E Whipsnade"]

[quote user="Joanna Grey"]Leaving the EU will not cost us anything.[/quote]]

 

It will. British farmers receive over two billion in subsidies from the EU each year.  UK farms incomes for 2011 averaged about £25, 000 .... four fifths of which is made up of EU subsidy. There would be no farming without the EU in this country.

[/quote]

That''s just one benefit. Looking at the whole picture, if we pull out of the EU it will not cost us anything. They need us more than we need them.

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[quote user="Larson E Whipsnade"]

[quote user="Joanna Grey"]Leaving the EU will not cost us anything.[/quote]]

 

It will. British farmers receive over two billion in subsidies from the EU each year.  UK farms incomes for 2011 averaged about £25, 000 .... four fifths of which is made up of EU subsidy. There would be no farming without the EU in this country.

[/quote]Oliver Walston, farmer extraordinare kown for his media tartiness, said merci bocou to £170.523 in 2004, thats seven years ago. Since then he''s made a cool million from subsedies. new Zealand farmers are up in arms about EU subsidies and ideally we should try and sustain a market without subsidies and the dumping of subsedised food in Africa, to the detriment to their local markets, prices and overall agricultural productions.

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