(Raoul and) The King Of Spain

[The Great Mass Debater 1,277]

So I was listening to my Tears For Fears CD (bizarrely Im not as old as that sounds) and Raoul and the Kings of Spain came on. Got me thinking.

What was the Simon Lappin and Glenn Roeder feud all about?

Now we all know Roeder could be ''not a very nice man'' at times, but why did Lappin become the target? From what I remember, he was singled out along with a few other players (Martin and Spillane?) for having played badly in a generally bad performance, but how did things get to the stage they did?

It usually takes two to tango, but Lappin always seemed decent, professional and unassuming. He doesnt seem to be the kind of character to rub someone up the wrong way. Roeder clearly didnt rate him, that''s his perogative as boss, but why the need to freeze him out, tell him he''d never play for the club again and all of that? What the hell did he do to deserve that kind of treatment?

It cant all be down to Roeder being a massive tool can it?

[Hairy Canary 774]

Plenty of evidence to suggest he was indeed a massive tool. Wasn''t it Roeder who sacked the kit man and had a bust up with Neil Adams when he was on Radio Norfolk?

woman in chains my favourite TfF track. 👍

[Guest]

Has to be Me and My Big Ideas for me.

[AJ 1,378]

Can''t believe Roeder stayed as long as he did. Ground the club down to the ground, supposedly treated numerous staff very badly (including Huckerby) and essentially got the club relegated. Unbelievable that our board didn''t act sooner really but all is in the past now I guess.

Credit to Lappin for staying and working hard to get back into the team eventually. Shame though, spent time in his prime training with the U20''s for little to no reason. As with OP would love to know the full story as Lappin hardly seems like the kind of man to start a revolution against the management, but something must have been amiss!

[norfolkngood 1,181]

I know Roeder Banned Chris Martin from training i do not remember why but it was for 2 weeks when he returned Roeder asked Martin what he had learned from being Banned Martin replied i am good at Fifa !

[Alex Moss 2,167]

[quote user="norfolkngood"]I know Roeder Banned Chris Martin from training i do not remember why but it was for 2 weeks when he returned Roeder asked Martin what he had learned from being Banned Martin replied i am good at Fifa ![/quote]

Brilliant, Norfolkngood 😂

[king canary 9,005]

Roeder probably did the right thing with Martin- the loan to Luton seemed to sort him out somewhat.

Roeder was an awful man manager but I''d argue Grant was worse for the club as he wasted a good chunk of money on mediocre players.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,277]

Roeder did seem to be what the club needed in the initial stages, some ruthless pruning and a good kick up the bum. Such an approacg only works in the initial stages though and is not sustainable. Initially he stopped the rot, but then became it.

I just think Lappin seems an unlikely candidate for being made an example of. It''s not like he was a bad pro or a difficult character

[The Great Mass Debater 1,277]

I was going to start a new thread on Russell Martin to ask what the situation is with him seemingly completely frozen out. Then I remembered this thread and thought there seem to be a few parallels between Lappin and what is happening with Martin now.

What on earth has Russ done to be so frozen out. Seemingly he will never play for the club again, but unless Im wrong is still our player with the window shut. For a character like Martin (and Farke is no Roeder) the situation between the two of them seems rather surprising.

Again, manager''s perogative to not fancy a player, but isnt he training with the U23s the way Lappin was made to do? What gives?

[norfolkngood 1,181]

Nelson is also training with the kids / under 23''s

[Indy_Bones 449]

[quote user="The Great Mass Debater"]Again, manager''s perogative to not fancy a player, but isnt he training with the U23s the way Lappin was made to do? What gives?[/quote]It''s quite simple really, the management team believe that Martin is no longer at the level required to play anything near regularly in the Championship, indeed his often lambasted performances whilst on loan in Scotland somewhat point to this (if he''s not good enough for that level anymore, he ain''t good enough in the Champs either), but what they do recognise is that he''s a good leadership figure who is well respected around the club and that''s something of value to our younger players who can learn from his experience and professionalism even if his playing level is not quite what it used to be (although his fitness is excellent).

For the past 2 seasons we''ve had incessant threads on here of people saying that he''s not good enough anymore or that he should be dropped, or he''s been blamed for many of our weaker performances, yet when he does get dropped and left out, we now get threads asking why the club is doing this!

Russ is a fantastic pro who has been a superb servant to the club, but I don''t think he''s at that level anymore and it''s surely better for our U23''s to benefit from having him with them than it is to simply let him go on loan and sit out his remaining year with someone else.

[Ray 111]

Hi Indy,

Some thought provoking points, however I believe you may have an incorrect reason for Russ Martin not being selected, even on the bench. I think it may have been Russ was told by Farke that he would never play again, because he (Farke) could not deal with the fact all the players looked to Russ at halftime and fulltime and not him, a situation he couldn’t embrace or handle, which imo tells us a lot about his self image. That said the fact he continually dresses entirely in black in itself probably tells us a great deal about his self image general demeanour.

I also suspect that although Russ spent the second half of last season in Glasgow he was still referenced by many of our players.

However, as you have pointed out, and I believe one thing we can all agree on (I hope) is that Russ Martin is a thorough professional and would only ever want what was best for NCFC and act accordingly.

There are many posts on here discussing the relative strengths of our squad and whether Farke is getting the most out of it, along with why we make mistakes, switch of, etc. I suspect it may be something to do with the fact there isn’t the team spirit there could be, insomuch the players do not particularly like the coach and feel they are rudderless. I accept of course you do not need to be liked to be a top coach, you do however need to be respected.

[FenwayFrank 2,719]

I heard the same Ray, Russ had too much influence in the dressing room and Farke wanted him out of the way

[Ray 111]

Fenway,

Too much influence I guess is a subjective description, but ether way if all the other players look(ed) to RM for advice, tactics, etc. then there must be a reason for that? I''d like to think it is because RM is very tactically astute, not saying DF isn''t of course. One thing I do know, should the above be true, then RM would always do the professional thing.

IMO, the way he was treated (for being the ultimate professional) was/is a disgrace.

I believe any coach worth his salt, given what he had available in RM, would have embraced the situation and used what he brought to the table, this becomes a problem of course if DF is unwilling or unable to listen to ideas that differ from his own, but again, imo, this says more about him than anyone else.

[Indy_Bones 449]

This is getting ridiculous.

Most fans have said that RM whilst being a great pro, hasn''t performed as a player for too long now, and whilst we can fully respect his service, no manager is going to potentially have the dressing room divided because a potentially past-it player has too much influence.

If it was Alex Ferguson instead of Farke nobody would be saying a damn thing, but because it''s not and our form recently isn''t the best, it''s yet another unnecessary stick to beat the club and manager with.

Going by what''s being said in other threads over the past few weeks, I reckon we''ll have enough sticks by November 5th to fill Carrow Road and have Norfolk''s biggest bonfire...

[Ray 111]

Hi Indy,

Not quite sure why you think this thread is a stick to beat the club with, I can''t see that anyone has criticised the club, the manager, well surely given the public profile of any manager their short comings are open to scrutiny and imo, and for the sake of balance and fairness, their successes should be equally heralded.

Re a divided dressing room, I''m not sure that was the case, if the entire team looked to their skipper and not the manager then is that divided? If RM had the trust and respect of the entire team then that is hardly his fault nor is it his fault if the manager felt undermined by the situation, all I am suggesting is that Farke could have harnessed what was on offer, something Fergie would no doubt have done?

[AJ 1,378]

For all we know Russ could be quite happy doing his coaching badges and working with the youth whilst giving us a back up option unless we can get a loan for him. We don''t know the conversations that have happened but I''m sure he hasn''t been treated badly by the club

[Ray 111]

Hi AJ,

Not for one moment do I believe the ''club'' have treated him badly.

Very happy working with the youth I should imagine, given he has stated his goal is to move into management. Back up, not if DF has anything to do with it and you are making a bit of an assumption when you say "we don''t know the conversations".

Cheers

[Indy_Bones 449]

[quote user="Ray"]Hi AJ,

Not for one moment do I believe the ''club'' have treated him badly.

Very happy working with the youth I should imagine, given he has stated his goal is to move into management.

Back up, not if DF has anything to do with it and you are making a bit of an assumption when you say "we don''t know the conversations".

Cheers[/quote]No, AJ''s totally right Ray in saying that WE don''t know the conversations, AJ clearly doesn''t, I certainly don''t, so if others are privy to more detailed knowledge about the situation, that''s not something we can comment on, and instead we can purely give our personal perspective on what we see.

Are you saying that yourself (or other posters here) have access to information, which you/they are then using to support a claim that the way Martin has been treated is a disgrace?

[lake district canary 4,882]

So, Ray, so according to you Alex Neil was deficient in man management skills and now Farke is too, but a player who has not performed at his best for the last two or three seasons is somehow the apple of players'' eyes.  Amazing then how these guys are getting managers'' jobs yet RM is still struggling to find a team to play in.

I really like RM and respect his contribution to the club, but maybe - and as we''ve seen he''s come out after matches and condemned the attitude of some of the players which is really the manager''s job - maybe he gets in the way of what a manager is trying to do.  You can only have one boss - and players have to respect that heirachy.  I have no doubt RM will end up in management, maybe he should go there sooner rather than later.

[ZLF 350]

Seems like a possible Charlton loan is on the cards.

I hope he performs well there and is a move that suits all parties and we can finally leave this circuklar pointless discussion alone.

[Ray 111]

Hi Gents,

Indy, if you say you and AJ have no knowledge of any conversations then of course you are correct, insomuch AJ is correct. Whether anyone is privy to anything or not, surely it is still all about posters giving a personal perspective, so again I agree with you. Consequently, whether I am privy or not, my personal perspective (opinion) is that RM, as an individual, has been treated very poorly.

LDC,

Point 1) “so according to you Alex Neil was deficient in man management skills and now Farke is too” – Yes, however not deficient, they have them but, as we are in exam result time, imo they ‘could do better’

Point 2) “a player who has not performed at his best for the last two or three seasons is somehow the apple of players'' eyes.” – Yes, however I believe I used the term respected. Also, “not performed at his best” a subjective stand point, but one I fully respect, if that is what you believe then that it was what you believe and I would fight for your right to believe it.

Point 3) “Amazing then how these guys are getting managers'' jobs yet RM is still struggling to find a team to play in. Yes - I agree, it is amazing in some respects, that said I believe AN was (and probably still is) on a steep learning curve, but he certainly appears to be on the curve, I’m yet to be convinced DF is, very happy to be proved wrong but like AN it may take a move away and some reflection possibly? LDC, you are making a massive assumption that RM is struggling to find a team to play in, I should imagine he has had many offers but may be biding his time for the moment for all sorts of reasons.

Point 4) “and players have to respect that heirachy”- No they do not have to respect anything, unless being physically coerced no-one has to do anything. If RM commands more respect than DF or anyone else for that matter, it’s hardly his fault.

Point 5) “maybe he should go there sooner rather than later” Yes, maybe he will.

Guys, I don’t post that often but any opinions, beliefs or imaginings mentioned are usually very well founded, that said, as with nearly all things they are subjective, after all we can all see the same goal and all have differing opinions on who was at fault, was it a foul, etc, etc.

ZLF

Seems like it, however “pointless” to you, may not be to others?