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Haggerdoo

Farke IS the problem

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He''s had more than 50 league games and it just isn''t getting any better - continually shipping goals for fun.

Fell out with Oliviera and thinks Srebny is a championship striker - time to go Daniel the numbskulls have had enough!

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Before the Preston game Farke had a worse win ratio at norwich than Peter (considered to be one of our worst ever managers ) Grant, after a similar about of games....with arguably better players at his disposal .

Why are we still employing someone with a worse record than Peter Grant? ?

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Farke isn’t the only problem but he is a big problem and the only one we can change. The list of his shortcomings increases by the game. Today it looked liked he had given up by half time and spent the rest of the match sulking, I think this says a lot about where his head is at.

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To be fair Oliviera was acting like a petulant child, and Srebny is what Webber has provided him with, just like the other players. That''s the way the new system works, Webber provides the playing staff, the head coach gets a tune out of them.

Now I don''t think Farke is getting anywhere enough out of them. But I have serious doubts that barely any of them are that decent and that I lay at the door of Webber. I also think that any manager that has had both Murphy''s, Cameron Jerome, Pritchard, Maddison, Ruddy, Bennett, Howson replaced with cheapies in the main (only Hanley really cost anything) is going to struggle. In all honesty a head coach with a bigger reputation would probably have quit by now.

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The other side of the coin is that a manager with a bigger reputation would have been sacked by now.

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The game was dead and buried before Farke got his arse out the chair and made  substitution. Very poor from him today. If he goes tonight I really wouldn''t be disappointed.

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Unfortunately the problems are far deeper and wider than farke. He is an inexperienced manager with no track record at all let alone the championship. The board have committed us to a massive strategic change which was always high risk. No decent British manager would want to work under this structure. We have no spare money a hoste of foreign players some decent and some dead wood and a foreign coaching set up. You no longer just get rid of the coach you have to get rid of the whole set up which we cannot afford. On the plus side I don''t think we will get relegated but we probably have to get used to lower mid table at best

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[quote user="Yorkshire Canary"]Unfortunately the problems are far deeper and wider than farke. He is an inexperienced manager with no track record at all let alone the championship. The board have committed us to a massive strategic change which was always high risk. No decent British manager would want to work under this structure. We have no spare money a hoste of foreign players some decent and some dead wood and a foreign coaching set up. You no longer just get rid of the coach you have to get rid of the whole set up which we cannot afford. On the plus side I don''t think we will get relegated but we probably have to get used to lower mid table at best[/quote]

The very point of this new structure is to be able to get rid of the coach without getting rid of the whole thing. Which is great in principle, as long as everyone is sure the fundamental structure is right. My big concern on seeing what Webber has provided for Farke, playing staff wise is that he doesn''t know what he''s doing as much as he likes to talk about knowing what he''s doing. The fact Webber has been able to turn the club upside down and not have a clue worries me far more than Farke not being good enough.

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It's irrelevant really because if we had continued in the same vein as we finished last season then most of the criticism would have been justified.

We had cause to be alarmed at the less than fruitful start to this season and, even though the team were playing better and there was cause to be pleased with the Summer's transfer dealings, our points tally initially saw us hovering above the relegation zone.

It was quite rational to be fearsome of acquiring the dreaded mid-table Championship mediocrity status under a manager who came over well, had progressive ideas but who seemed unable to get results on a continuous basis. The club seemed to be going sideways like much of the football.

Throw in the constant financial doom and gloom of a prolonged stay in the league with seeming little sign of progress and it was not unreasonable to question Daniel Farke's position.

I do not ever recall much of a call for him to be removed though, but more a continuous expression of views detailing just how much longer the manager should be given to turn things around before action needed to be taken.

I can only go on what I have read on here and comments from a few friends from Norwich so may be there was more unrest among the attendants.

Personally, I was considering the time just before the winter window as being sufficient, but with all due fickleness, born out of our early home results, believe this was reduced to just ten-fifteen games.

It's always all about results  though, so who can possibly be unhappy now?

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16 hours ago, ron obvious said:

 

No pleasure. Just pointing out that people should be a little more circumspect perhaps.

And that football is a funny old game.

 

I'm more than happy to hold my hands up and say I was wrong - but I don't think I was the only one with those sort of feelings at that particular time.

It's easy to be a smart ar$e after the event and score points

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If you publish an opinion & it's shown to be wrong, you can't complain if somebody points out that the predictions based on your opinion were wrong.

Unless you're an economist of course :classic_laugh:

 

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In any project of rebuilding something, you need to have time to get the new scenario right.  We have had several goes at it over recent years, with the Gunn project, the Hughton project, the Adams project and now the Webber/Farke project.  The Gunn and Adams Norwich way projects were well meaning, but never really got off the ground and had to be rescued by fiesty Scotsmen in Lambert and Neil. Hughton had the right idea, but never managed to get any momentum going, largly because we were in the premier league at the time.  

This time, the rebuilding was done with a proven person at the helm - Webber - he's done it before and whether you like him or not, whether you thought he was not up to the job or not or whatever - he has proven himself again.  That people wrote us off last season was barmy and even I could see that progress was being made in terms of the way the team started making more chances and that one or two players were just not getting it or just not up to the task.   We are all purring at what we are seeing now and I haven't seen us play football like this since the late eighties.  Just shows you should not write off a manager just because things get a little tough - Webber and Farke had a monumental task to completely change the ethos, the style of football and virtually the whole playing and coaching staff - and they did it and boy is it good to watch!  Perhaps next time we run have to rebuild things (hopefully not for many years!)) people will be a bit more understanding!  

 

 

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To be fair on Howie, I think he bumped the thread to draw attention to the fact that those who argued for patience had a case and that whilst the attraction of "quick fixes" are attractive, the solutions they provide are only superficial.

 

But then we get back into the whole run up debt to get promoted/ stay up argument...

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14 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Good to see that thread dredging is still top of the agenda on here.

It's a shame some can't enjoy the win and discuss the merits of our recent run, instead of this nonsense. Stinks of a "I told you so" attitude, which would have been criticised by the same people had our run gone the other way.

I was quite worried earlier in the season. We were letting in a lot of goals and the same problems with our forward play persisted. Airing these concerns, didn't make me less of a fan. It was not 'club bashing'. Conversely, those that are always positive about the club doesn't make them a 'better fan' - it just means they have a different outlook on things.

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For me it’s not about proving people wrong or being a smart ****, but that so few people were prepared to be patient and wait and see with what was always going to be a long term project. It was always going to take longer than one season and I believe Webber said judge us after four transfer windows. 

We seem to be obsessed with making our minds up about people immediately and not appreciating that coaches and players can improve given time.

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1 hour ago, Gordon Bennett said:

For me it’s not about proving people wrong or being a smart ****, but that so few people were prepared to be patient and wait and see with what was always going to be a long term project. It was always going to take longer than one season and I believe Webber said judge us after four transfer windows. 

We seem to be obsessed with making our minds up about people immediately and not appreciating that coaches and players can improve given time.

Agreed - but that's part of human nature. After a relegation and two middling seasons, in which we sold many good players, patience inevitably started to wear thin. They were times last season, and at the beginning of this, where I was completely losing interest going to Carrow Road. However, I can now see a real team ethic and togetherness and a real plan of how we play. This has been translated into the stands where the atmosphere is the best its been for quite a fair while.

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I agree it's part of human nature Hans, but the search for quick, simple solutions is often part of the problem. IMO, the search for quick fixes is why other clubs of similar sizes to City have been in the Championship for so long - e.g. Forest and Leeds.

We are all football fans and we know there is a long way to go and plenty of time for it to all fall apart but IF it does, we can take some comfort in the fact that we have not saddled ourselves in unsustainable debt to make the progress that we have, nor do we have a lot of Over-paid, "over the hill" championship stars sitting it out on big contracts.

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3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

In any project of rebuilding something, you need to have time to get the new scenario right.  We have had several goes at it over recent years, with the Gunn project, the Hughton project, the Adams project and now the Webber/Farke project.  The Gunn and Adams Norwich way projects were well meaning, but never really got off the ground and had to be rescued by fiesty Scotsmen in Lambert and Neil. Hughton had the right idea, but never managed to get any momentum going, largly because we were in the premier league at the time.  

This time, the rebuilding was done with a proven person at the helm - Webber - he's done it before and whether you like him or not, whether you thought he was not up to the job or not or whatever - he has proven himself again.  That people wrote us off last season was barmy and even I could see that progress was being made in terms of the way the team started making more chances and that one or two players were just not getting it or just not up to the task.   We are all purring at what we are seeing now and I haven't seen us play football like this since the late eighties.  Just shows you should not write off a manager just because things get a little tough - Webber and Farke had a monumental task to completely change the ethos, the style of football and virtually the whole playing and coaching staff - and they did it and boy is it good to watch!  Perhaps next time we run have to rebuild things (hopefully not for many years!)) people will be a bit more understanding!  

 

 

All of that is true, but those previous projects were all in essence continuations of the status quo, with a non-football CEO (albeit one who had to understand the wacky world of transfers and football finance) and a football manager.

This project has overturned that system, while slashing back the wage bill to cope with the end of parachute payments, so there has been a massive turnover of on-field and off-field staff and a whole new way of running the club.

If this is all working out, and the signs are good but let's not get too carried away, then it is only because the directors made the brave (foolhardy might be another word...) decision probably back early in 2017 to introduce this new system. They must have known that the combination of the change, with a coach and players new to English football, and the need to start cutting wages meant that last season would almost certainly be a write-off, with promotion highly unlikely.

I know Parma believes the change was made a season too late, and should have happened after relegation. Certainly there was an opportunity, with McNally having gone, to appoint a sporting director, and so a head coach. Whether Webber (if he was always our number one choice) would have been available then I don't know.

Either way it would have been a very big decision to make such a wholesale culture switch, given that it was the first year of parachute payments, and Alex Neil's record of having got us straight back up. I can see why - if it was being contemplated by the board - it was put off.

As it happens I notice that some Sheffield Wednesday fans are calling for an old-fashioned English manager who knows the Championship to be hired. The classic supposed quick fix that we moved away from.

 

Edited by PurpleCanary

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2 hours ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

It's a shame some can't enjoy the win and discuss the merits of our recent run, instead of this nonsense. Stinks of a "I told you so" attitude, which would have been criticised by the same people had our run gone the other way.

I think what bugs me about this is that when Neil was sacked (despite many calling those for him to go being called pant wetters and similar) I didn't feel a great need to go through and dig up old threads saying 'told you so' nor did I see a bunch of 'mea culpas' from the folks insisting Neil was the best way forward and those who wanted him gone were wrong. 

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I don't think it is quite the same thing KC. The Board were very patient with AN and by the end, I think most people thought that his time had overrun. I don't think many people criticise the dismissal that I can recall (although please drag up old posts to prove me wrong).

In AN's case it was the complete inability to stop others from carving us apart time and again that was so demoralising and the reason for dismissing him was his apparent inability to do anything about it. By the end, his inability to do so had been tested to destruction and proven beyond doubt.

 

So, if it makes you feel any better, those of you who had been advocating his dismissal a season earlier were proven to be correct and those initially advocating time were proven wrong.

Nevertheless, as a general rule, football clubs tend to be to trigger happy in dismissing managers and wasteful of the financial resources that the club has as a consequence. IMO, it is why similar sized clubs to us likes Leeds and Forest have been in the Championship for so long. Short term gambles leave clubs with long term debts and they are often unsuccessful, leaving longer periods of stagnation.

You may chose to see it simply as a case of "I told you so" but it is more the promotion of a more sensible way to run the clubs affairs. As I stated above, there is plenty of time for it to go wrong this year, but if it does we will not be left with a legacy of debt and grossly overpaid players that we cannot get rid of, which hang round a club for years.

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22 minutes ago, Badger said:

You may chose to see it simply as a case of "I told you so"

I think it is tough to see one poster bumping 5 or 6 threads like this as anything other than that to be honest.

It isn't about being right or wrong for me- it is about the strange desire to score points over other Norwich fans based on their previous opinions.

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