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thebigfeller

There's three main problems at Norwich City

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There''s a lot of people attempting to have both sides of the discussion here. By that I mean..
So you believe "something I''ve made up"
Well you''re wrong because "something I believe"

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[quote user="thebigfeller"]
[quote user="nutty nigel"]Once we don''t care about the value of the club to the community or the community to the club I wonder how long it will be before a franchise would be preferable if the money was right.[/quote]
Do you think Watford, now owned and run absolutely brilliantly by an Italian family with zero emotional connection to the club, have somehow ceased to be of value to their community? The opposite. They''re of much more value now, because they''re a successful, family football club.
Earlier, I described our view of ourselves as delusional. I stand by that absolutely. The sheer arrogance in thinking we''re somehow unique - we are the true community club, while all others somehow aren''t - sums the whole thing up. Moxey came out with this self-congratulatory gibberish shortly before he left.
It''s magnificent, Nutty... but it''s not war.
[/quote]
OK, let''s play this game..
Do you think ipswich now owned and run by a complete shyster with zero connection to the club, have somehow ceased to be of value to their community?
I do.
So would you look for assurances before having the club sold. Or would you just take what''s there and pray?

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Nutty, we all know the answer to that. They’d have taken Cullum, they’d have rolled the red carpet out for Evans, given the hand in marriage of their first born daughter for Cellina and probably would have presented their own gonads in a glass case for Fernandes - hell what’s that Di Stefano or whatever his name was doing now that Saddam Hussein is dead?

Of course, we could be on our fifth or sixth cycle by now and we’d still be hearing how it was better to have tried and failed or some other such cop out tosh.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]
You may have noticed mine too Shaun.
This is what you said in 2009...

[quote user="thebigfeller"]

if one group of people are to blame above all else for the decline of this football club, it''s Delia Smith and her board. And - perhaps worst of all - I don''t think they''ve learned a thing throughout the entire journey.[/quote]

Now it''s the following success that you put down to footballing expertise and somehow separated from Delia. I wonder how Bowkett and mcNally had more football expertise than Balls and Webber. I expect someone will find a way to spin that[:P]

[/quote]
Oh dear Nutty, Oh dear oh dear. On the very same thread as that epic post, I wrote these as suggestions/demands:
[quote user="thebigfeller"]

1. Doncaster is sacked, and replaced by a CEO of demonstrable footballing expertise;

2. A manager with experience at League One level and preferably a successful record is appointed;

3. The board acknowledge full, unfettered responsibility for relegation;

4. Every conceivable effort is made to attract new investors, and the

joint majority shareholders climb down from their requirement that only

a bona fide Norwich fan with £20m to plough into the team will be

considered?

[/quote]
Note: I didn''t demand they go. Only that they searched high and low for new investment. The rest of what I wanted happened.
Something else too. Something I''m hugely struck by, and is a perfect symptom of the brainwashing I referred to. What is success for Norwich City? Sustaining ourselves on a long term basis in the Premier League: the goal of the famous Seven Year Plan, in other words. Remarkably, you regard us having hung around there for a bit - but never convincingly after Lambert left just one season in - as glorious success... don''t you?
And why? Because the limitations of our owners mean we can''t do any better than that. QED.
We''ve been in slow decline since Lambert exited; a decline cushioned by parachute payments, but we''re now into our fourth straight year of it. And what do you do? You keep pointing to the past - 2009-12 - and hail the owners as having been ''successful''. Bizarre. But at the same time, very very telling,
We needed investment ten years ago. We need it even more now. Desperately.

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Shaun, you''re making a lot of assumptions the main one being that our recent history would have been better if the club was sold. You have only attempted to back this up by putting forward clubs whose recent history is better. Why are you so convinced of this?

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]Shaun, you''re making a lot of assumptions the main one being that our recent history would have been better if the club was sold. You have only attempted to back this up by putting forward clubs whose recent history is better. Why are you so convinced of this?[/quote]
Very obviously, our recent history *could* have been better if the club had been sold. Could have been worse too. We''ll never know either way.
Equally obviously, our owners'' lack of means were precisely what prevented us from establishing ourselves in the Prem. That was our glass ceiling. In all probability, said glass ceiling is now lower, given how quickly football and this division in particular is changing. Which rather begs the question: what is the point of Norwich City under these owners?

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]Shaun, you''re making a lot of assumptions the main one being that our recent history would have been better if the club was sold. You have only attempted to back this up by putting forward clubs whose recent history is better. Why are you so convinced of this?[/quote]

And with regard to the community engagement stuff... the only example of a negative impact you’ve put forward is Ipswich, when there far more clubs that support the opposite, which you’ve ignored.

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[quote user="thebigfeller"] ........ Which rather begs the question: what is the point of Norwich City under these owners?[/quote] Really? My question is: "What is the point of Man City et. al. under their owners?" 

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I don''t mind that the current owners have no meaningful money in footballing terms. I do mind the many many poor managerial ,boardroom and transfer decisions they have made over the years. They are fans but lack footballing house. Occasionally they have stumbled on a decent mix law of averages I suppose. No confidence in Balls or any of the others and we are in a downward drift that can be arrested with astute appointments

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[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="thebigfeller"] ........ Which rather begs the question: what is the point of Norwich City under these owners?
[/quote] Really? My question is: "What is the point of Man City et. al. under their owners?" [/quote]
I couldn''t agree more. Those poor Man City fans. They were happily bouncing around betwwen the bottom of the Premier League and League One. Then some of those nast furriners came along and bought the club, investing money which saw them able to attract some of the best players in the world, best managers in the world and win trophy after trophy all while playing some of the best football in the world.
Yes, I''m sure every Man City fan is envious of our self-sustaining socialist ideals that will keep us from ever truely being able to establish ourselves in the top flight, let alone attract high calibre players, managers and challenge for trophies.

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[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"][quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="thebigfeller"] ........ Which rather begs the question: what is the point of Norwich City under these owners?
[/quote] Really? My question is: "What is the point of Man City et. al. under their owners?" [/quote]
I couldn''t agree more. Those poor Man City fans. They were happily bouncing around betwwen the bottom of the Premier League and League One. Then some of those nast furriners came along and bought the club, investing money which saw them able to attract some of the best players in the world, best managers in the world and win trophy after trophy all while playing some of the best football in the world.
Yes, I''m sure every Man City fan is envious of our self-sustaining socialist ideals that will keep us from ever truely being able to establish ourselves in the top flight, let alone attract high calibre players, managers and challenge for trophies.[/quote] No mention of "nast furriners" from me; nor did I say anything about "poor Man City fans". I invited people to reflect on what the point of it actually is. You want bragging rights, to be able to say "We are the best"? Being able to say "Ooh look at us, we have the best manager in the world!"? Anybody can watch the best players in the world by buying a subscription to Sky etc. But that has very little to do with what supporting a club means for all but a tiny percentage of football fans.

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[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"][quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="thebigfeller"] ........ Which rather begs the question: what is the point of Norwich City under these owners?
[/quote] Really? My question is: "What is the point of Man City et. al. under their owners?" [/quote]
I couldn''t agree more. Those poor Man City fans. They were happily bouncing around betwwen the bottom of the Premier League and League One. Then some of those nast furriners came along and bought the club, investing money which saw them able to attract some of the best players in the world, best managers in the world and win trophy after trophy all while playing some of the best football in the world.
Yes, I''m sure every Man City fan is envious of our self-sustaining socialist ideals that will keep us from ever truely being able to establish ourselves in the top flight, let alone attract high calibre players, managers and challenge for trophies.
[/quote]
Plenty of whole families stopped following Man City after the switch from Maine Rd and the influx of obscene amounts of money.  Ok, they have probably attracted new fans and glory hunter types since then, but the club changed completely.  Was it for the better?  Maybe, but the price of progress can be steep - it worked at Man City in terms of success on the field, but how many other clubs have had prolonged success because of the huge money invested?   Some have, but there are plenty who have not and for who the changes have ruined their club, in some cases totally ruined - Hull, QPR and others.

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[quote user="westcoastcanary"] Really? My question is: "What is the point of Man City et. al. under their owners?" [/quote]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh wait, you''re serious. [^o)] [8-)] [:$]

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[quote user="westcoastcanary"]No mention of "nast furriners" from me; nor did I say anything about "poor Man City fans". I invited people to reflect on what the point of it actually is. You want bragging rights, to be able to say "We are the best"? Being able to say "Ooh look at us, we have the best manager in the world!"? Anybody can watch the best players in the world by buying a subscription to Sky etc. But that has very little to do with what supporting a club means for all but a tiny percentage of football fans.[/quote]
Football is about, among other things:
- Community
- Pride
- Passion
- History
- Memories
- Moments
- Excitement
- Entertainment
- Glory
It''s not and has never been all about winning. But it''s also about the right to dream... and above all, being the best you can be. That''s the essence of competition.
When Manchester City were bought by their current owners, they effectively won the lottery. And given what their fans had gone through for decades on end - not just their own club''s never-ending black comedy and failure, but their rivals'' never-ending success - I''d say they''d earned it.
Now they''re a club completely transformed: one of the biggest, wealthiest and most exciting in the world. Yet their owners haven''t neglected the local community at all. If there are any City fans who miss what they used to be, they''ll be in a very small minority.

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[quote user="thebigfeller"]
[quote user="westcoastcanary"] Really? My question is: "What is the point of Man City et. al. under their owners?" [/quote]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh wait, you''re serious. [^o)] [8-)] [:$]
[/quote]Yes. Go on, have a try.

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Funny how these examples of totally ruined clubs are in many cases (Blackburn, QPR, Ipswich etc) likely to be the clubs battling it out with us in lower mid table this season. So despite being “totally ruined” they are effectively on a par with us now in football terms despite all the advantages we have had over the last few years!

One of my biggest gripes though with the champagne socialists is the sheer hypocrisy. They said no individual should ever have majority control of the club after Chase and then proceeded to take such control themselves. They said they are “custodians of the club” for the fans and yet now we know they “will never sell” even though the “fans won’t like it.” What kind of “community club” has that sort of attitude. Or for that matter continues to charge its fans (and away fans) some of the highest prices in the country whilst the directors put in sod all. I would be interested to know if the Smith clan pay for their tickets, hispitalliuty, travel etc. I bet young Tom has never paid for a ticket in his life. They are happy to ask the fans view on meaningless things such as the colour of the shorts or what sort of pies we should have but when it comes to the important stuff they know best and the fans can lump it if they don’t like it.

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Worth remembering that having a local owner with an emotional connection to the club doesn''t guarantee great links with the community- just look at Hull and Blackpool.

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You forgot the crook Reynolds at Darlington.
By the way 14 pages so far so i am sure this will get to 20 pages once Nutty gets up. [:P]

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[quote user="Indy"]So you’re not then you’d be happy to live beyond our self funding model?

You are a little tinker, go on about how FFP should be observed, but in reality you’d be happy to allow debt at our club!

So you are happy for long term debt required to survive, but not as a gamble?[/quote]
No contradiction in anything I have posted, Indy! For what little it is worth my stance has been as follows.I am not convinced the succession plan plan is the right way to.proceed. To be clear, that doesn''t mean I think it is the wrong way. But I need much more information/informed opinion on Tom Smith, and  much more detailed information on the trust that seemingly might play some part in a transition period, or even act as an overseeing body in the longer term. At the moment I have no idea about anything to do with this body that might one day have an impact on club affairs, let alone whether it might be significant.
As it happens I am not convinced the succession plan, with the apparent ban on

outside investment, is as set in stone as some public statements from Smith and Jones would suggest,  but that is another argument.I am not opposed at least in theory to the club being sold to an outsider, and have never posted that I was. But any potential owner would have to be willing and able to pass some extremely rigorous suitability tests - financial and other. Ideally any new owner would agree to a supporter-director with a golden-share veto on heritage issues.
That aside, I would not under any circumstances want anyone anywhere near the ownership of the club who was willing to indulge in financial gambles that might bring about administration, or who would be willing to break FFP rules.

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So you’ve basically said that you’re happy to sit back wait and see how the Smith dynasty ends up running the club.

Sound as there’s absolutely nothing anyone can do that’s pretty much a given!

As I’ve said I couldn’t give two hoots who owns the club as a football fan and being here watching Norwich since 1977 I’d be happy to see us back in the top flight under a wealthy owner with manageable debt, if that means some old fans who are pro delia would object and give up coming well I’m sure they wouldn’t be missed as there would be plenty more fans wanting to see top players in the top division.

Anyhow it’s good to debate and I’m looking forward to my next game I get to, win, lose or draw.

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[quote user="Indy"]So you’ve basically said that you’re happy to sit back wait and see how the Smith dynasty ends up running the club.

Sound as there’s absolutely nothing anyone can do that’s pretty much a given!

As I’ve said I couldn’t give two hoots who owns the club as a football fan and being here watching Norwich since 1977 I’d be happy to see us back in the top flight under a wealthy owner with manageable debt, if that means some old fans who are pro delia would object and give up coming well I’m sure they wouldn’t be missed as there would be plenty more fans wanting to see top players in the top division.

Anyhow it’s good to debate and I’m looking forward to my next game I get to, win, lose or draw.[/quote]
No, Indy, I didn''t say anything like that. I was saying the opposite, that I needed now, or at least well before the succession plan goes into effect, to know much more about Smith, plus much more on whether this trust would have any control over him:I am not convinced the succession plan plan is the

right way to.proceed. To be clear, that doesn''t mean I think it is the

wrong way. But I need much more information/informed opinion on Tom

Smith, and  much more detailed information on the trust that seemingly

might play some part in a transition period, or even act as an

overseeing body in the longer term. At the moment I have no idea about

anything to do with this body that might one day have an impact on club

affairs, let alone whether it might be significant.
It is in the present tense for a reason. It would be totally pointless to wait and see how Smith gets on, assuming he does end up taking over.

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Just a thought - the best way to get a realistic and meaningful takeover bid is by strongly suggesting no interest from the owners. A tactic which would hopefully avoid getting a wrong''un wanting to invest for quick profit/money laundering or similar. For this reason I am not convinced that the succession plan is set in stone.

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[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"][quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="thebigfeller"] ........ Which rather begs the question: what is the point of Norwich City under these owners?
[/quote] Really? My question is: "What is the point of Man City et. al. under their owners?" [/quote]
I couldn''t agree more. Those poor Man City fans. They were happily bouncing around betwwen the bottom of the Premier League and League One. Then some of those nast furriners came along and bought the club, investing money which saw them able to attract some of the best players in the world, best managers in the world and win trophy after trophy all while playing some of the best football in the world.
Yes, I''m sure every Man City fan is envious of our self-sustaining socialist ideals that will keep us from ever truely being able to establish ourselves in the top flight, let alone attract high calibre players, managers and challenge for trophies.[/quote] No mention of "nast furriners" from me; nor did I say anything about "poor Man City fans". I invited people to reflect on what the point of it actually is. You want bragging rights, to be able to say "We are the best"? Being able to say "Ooh look at us, we have the best manager in the world!"? Anybody can watch the best players in the world by buying a subscription to Sky etc. But that has very little to do with what supporting a club means for all but a tiny percentage of football fans.
[/quote]
The casual xenophobia was implied in your post (indeed many of the posts on this thread).
As for the highlighted bit, yes, yes I do. Nothing would give me greater pleasure or shut that lot up down the road than City winning the Champions League. I''d even be happy with beating a club of the size of A Z Alkmaar in the final and dining out on it for years.
And my guess is that there are only a tiny percentage of Man City, Chelsea, Wolves or even Barnsley fans would disagree with me.

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[quote user="thebigfeller"]
[quote user="nutty nigel"]Shaun, you''re making a lot of assumptions the main one being that our recent history would have been better if the club was sold. You have only attempted to back this up by putting forward clubs whose recent history is better. Why are you so convinced of this?[/quote]
Very obviously, our recent history *could* have been better if the club had been sold. Could have been worse too. We''ll never know either way.
Equally obviously, our owners'' lack of means were precisely what prevented us from establishing ourselves in the Prem. That was our glass ceiling. In all probability, said glass ceiling is now lower, given how quickly football and this division in particular is changing. Which rather begs the question: what is the point of Norwich City under these owners?
[/quote]
So having accepted that our recent history could have been better and could have been worse you, in the very next paragraph you immediately make a similar assumption that a more wealthy owner would have got us established in the PL. More absolute tosh Shaun. They could have kept us in the PL a bit longer, they also could have sent us plummeting down the leagues. Or they could have done about the same as our current owners. You have no way of knowing which would have happened.
As for any club getting established in the PL. It won''t happen very often primarily because of the churn. I don''t know how many seasons you''d consider a club to have become established But if you take away the seven established clubs the other 13 have been there for 7 seasons or less with 7 of those 3 seasons or less.
[quote user="lincoln canaryGolden Coppel"][quote user="nutty nigel"]Shaun, you''re making a lot of assumptions the main one being that our recent history would have been better if the club was sold. You have only attempted to back this up by putting forward clubs whose recent history is better. Why are you so convinced of this?[/quote] And with regard to the community engagement stuff... the only example of a negative impact you’ve put forward is Ipswich, when there far more clubs that support the opposite, which you’ve ignored.[/quote]
I only gave you ipswich because you only gave me Man Citeh. If you want to open it up further be my guest.
However the point I was making to Shaun which you hijacked wasn''t about that. It was about the few owners he puts forward who have done better than ours. For a more extensive list here''s a few who haven''t achieved as much as ours. It''s by no means exhaustive and some of them may do better in time. But so might ours. 

Vincent

Tan

Tony Xia

Paul

suen

Carson

Yeung

Assem

Allan

Marcus

Evans

Andrea

Radrizzani

Massimo

Cellino

Evangelos  Marinakis

Fawaz Mubarak Al-Hasawi

Tony

Fernandez

Lakshmi

Mittal

Dai Yongge and Dai Xiu Li

Dejphon Chansiri

Alexandre Gaydamak

Jason Levien and Steve

Kaplan, 

Lai Guochuan

Venky’s

[quote user="TIL 1010"]
You forgot the crook Reynolds at Darlington.
By the way 14 pages so far so i am sure this will get to 20 pages once Nutty gets up. [:P]
[/quote]
More than happy to post on an excellent thread with great contributions and few one liners or calling out of others[:P]

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Unless you are a stellar wealthy owner who makes more interest in the time it takes your manager to waste it, you can never guarantee buying success.

No-one would turn his back on a wealthy owner but it would be foolish to assume that would mean a permanent Prem future.

It is no good complaining about Man City because they have done nothing wrong.

So many praise Crewe Alexandra for their model but it hasn''t really worked either.

There isn''t a right or a wrong way. What you need is a sustainable way and I doubt that will ever happen with us.

We have had our days in the sun and no-one likes what is going on at the moment and most have a genuine reason for their attitude towards the current debacle.

Fact is, I don''t know where we would go if a stinking rich owner couldn''t turn it around.

Bring back the Supporters Club?

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[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"] The casual xenophobia was implied in your post (indeed many of the posts on this thread).[/quote]
Here''s what I said:  "Really? My question is: "What is the point of Man City et. al. under their owners?" 
Please tell me what in this sentence implies any form of "casual xenophobia"? The fact is that you have put your own, completely out-of-context, interpretation on what I was referring to in asking what the point of Man City is under their current owners. My point was nothing to do with who the owners happen to be and certainly nothing to do with their nationality or where they come from. It was to do entirely with their reasons for buying and investing vast sums of money in a football club (a point I''d apply equally to any club such owners bought up and invested in wherever in the world they may be). 

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Sorry, but you are completely wrong about what Brighton fans think of Hughton. I work with lots of them in Sussex, and Bloom is their hero, not Hughton. Most of them think he''s average at best and expect to get someone better to take them to the next step.

And I live near Watford - and yes, they have sold their soul. Their supporters have no affinity with their club.

Whilst I don''t disagree with some of what you say, you seem to argue for selling and then say that there isn''t a Norwich fan with enough money. (There is, actually there are a few, but they don''t live in Norfolk). So how do we choose the right investor - do we go for someone like the Oystons at Blackpool, or Ashley at Newcastle? Or perhaps even that nice Mr Evans at 1p5wich? Fernandez at QPR - lots of this messageboard wanted him; do you still? How will we know when the right one comes along?

And even then being owned by a wealthy person doesn''t mean they spend their money does it? Abramovitch does, and one or two others - but not many. Most of the Championship club owners don''t, they just guarantee losses up to a certain level.

Be careful what you wish for - there are many more examples of failure than success in wealthy ownerships of football clubs.

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