Sounds Familiar.

[TCCANARY 263]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45396360

Swansea City''s owners have warned it could take years for the club to

return to the Premier League as they confront the "harsh reality" of

relegation.

In this rare and wide-ranging interview, Kaplan and Levien explain:

• Why Swansea have had to cut costs so severely this summer.

• Why
  the Swans are still paying transfer fees for players they bought last
  season and earlier, and why that is hampering their recruitment now.

• Why
  Swansea did not sign Ryan Woods from Brentford last month, a failed
  move which they admit "disappointed" manager Graham Potter.

• How
  failed "bets" in the transfer market have cost the club dearly, and how
  those failures affect issues such as Financial Fair Play.

[Badger 2,405]

Dare I suggest a cautionary tale?Huw Jenkins, a lifelong Swansea fan, bought Swansea and took them through the leagues and into the premiership where they stayed for several years. In 2016, he sold them at a huge profit to themselves to US investors - who quickly achieved relegation. I don''t think that they have great debt however, so are better placed that some who come down.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Interesting they have lowered expectations to fans by saying it could take years to get back to the PL. It takes the pressure off everyone at the club. Contrast that with the apparent desperation of our club and fans to get back in the first season and the resultant pressure on the manager - as well as pressure on the finances trying to maintain an expensive squad that first season.

The parachute payments were what fuelled that pressure, but if we had saved some of that money, rather than go all out to get promoted - we could have rebuilt earlier.  The gamble, I suppose, was fair - we scored a heck of a lot of goals that season and could have got promoted had the defence stood up - but in hindsight, the rebuild could have started in that first season back down - as Swansea are doing. 

Swings and roundabouts I suppose, but we seem to be on the right track now.

[shaunieboy77 73]

Should have kept Bob Bradley in charge

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user=" Badger"]Dare I suggest a cautionary tale?Huw Jenkins, a lifelong Swansea fan, bought Swansea and took them through the leagues and into the premiership where they stayed for several years. In 2016, he sold them at a huge profit to themselves to US investors - who quickly achieved relegation. I don''t think that they have great debt however, so are better placed that some who come down.[/quote]

Part of the cautionary tale was that the Supporters'' Trust owned 21 per cent of the shares and had a Supporter-Director on the board, but when it came to it he knew nothing about the sale until it was a fait accompli, and in any event as I understand it neither he nor the trust could have done anything to stop it.

This is why I am not in favour of supporter-directors, unless they have real power, such as a golden-share veto, written into the constitution of the club.

[Aggy 754]

Fair point LDC, but we had previous experience of bouncing straight back in 14/15 so I think fans’ expectations were always going to be that we’d do the same this time round. I think especially here, where the owners haven’t got as much money to pump in as at some other clubs, the gamble had to be to try and get straight back up using the parachute payments.

As I fear we’re likely to see now, rebuilding without huge sums of money could take a long time.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Swansea’s owners also articulate the schizophrenic nature of the style of football, the forced signings and the disparate finances between Premier and Championship.

You are running two different businesses, with two different sets of requirements, two conflicting philosophies and PR presentations, two entirely different business models.

Levein and Kaplan also espouse the seed it, nurture it, grow it philosophy now that they are without (in relative terms to their Premier riches, though likely with far deeper pockets than ours nevertheless).

Nobody appears to endorse or follow this philosophy for long once an ‘established’ (let’s say after surviving for 1 year) Premier League Club, when finances, exposure and expectations inflate rapidly beyond typical capacity.

The question is not whether such a philosophy is right for fallow years, but why nobody with money or who sustain at the top level can ‘protect’ such a carefully nurtured baby once ‘success’ arrives (let’s say 2 years in the PL).

Indeed the ‘risk’ so readily spoken of here in wistful term is very much the compulsion to ‘move to the next level of established PL club’ , meaning a parachuted influx of ‘better’ players though without the nurtured, cultural grounding of the club philosophy - though with high price tags and an expectation of immediate improvement - are indeed often a flaky investment and a huge weight on restructuring upon demotion, as our own recent history shows. Imagine our current reality had Maddison gone back on loan under Alex Neil and the £21million having to be found from cuts within the current squad (a reality that Webber and co were looking forward to at the start of last season, knowing then what was on the horizon).

The interesting is not whether Norwich (or Swansea) embrace the philosophy in the fellow years, but rather is anyone brave enough to stick to it when success arrives?

If the answer to that is ‘no’ - as it has been for all this far it seems - then is it a philosophy at all or merely a nice marketing gloss on a financial necessity?

Parma

[westcoastcanary 173]

@Parma

Burnley? 

[westcoastcanary 173]

Courtesy The Irish Times

BURNLEY - Accounts for the year to 30 June 2017Turnover £121m (17th highest in the league)
Wages £61m (Joint lowest, 50per cent of turnover)
Profit before tax £27m (follows £5m loss in 2016)
Ownership Club states that chairman Mike Garlick owns 49.24per cent of the shares, director John Banaszkiewicz 28.2per cent and the other five directors a total of 16.36per cent: 93.8per cent of the club is owned by directors.
Match income £6m
TV rights £105m
Catering £2.4m
Commercial & retail £8m
Net debt Not stated; there was no outstanding bank or directors’ loans and £20m cash in the bank.
Interest payable £45,000 on leases and hire-purchase contracts.
Highest-paid director No directors of Burnley are paid.
State they’re in Testament to Sean Dyche’s management and a soundly run club, Burnley stayed up in the Premier League despite, with relegated Hull City, the joint lowest wage bill of the 20 clubs. All debts including directors’ loans were paid off in Burnley’s previous single season in the Premier League, 2014-15. The chairman, Mike Garlick, said that financially, the club is still committed to trying to develop talent rather than making expensive signings.

[SwindonCanary 455]

I like to think we would have been the same a Burnley if we had stayed in the Premiership. Instead, we are a Championship team doing the same without the TV rights £105m !      

[king canary 7,603]

"The American businessmen have also revealed they are considering putting equity into the club - by buying more shares, possibly from the Supporters'' Trust - in order to help absorb losses related to relegation."

Sounds less familiar.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="SwindonCanary"]I like to think we would have been the same a Burnley if we had stayed in the Premiership. Instead, we are a Championship team doing the same without the TV rights £105m !      

[/quote]

and without a huge PL wage bill that needs to be maintained when a club is relegated

ps in a previous job I used to be paid huge expenses......only problem was they got spend on travel, hotels and subsistence, if only I had not spent that money I would have been rolling in it

[king canary 7,603]

"and without a huge PL wage bill that needs to be maintained when a club is relegated"

Those things aren''t proportional though. The average wages to turnover ratio in the Premier League is apparently 55%. In the Championship it will be much higher.

[A Load of Squit 5,161]

[quote user="king canary"]"The American businessmen have also revealed they are considering putting equity into the club - by buying more shares, possibly from the Supporters'' Trust - in order to help absorb losses related to relegation."

Sounds less familiar.[/quote]

Current onwners putting in thier own money due to the previous owner being fiscally negligent does sound familiar.

[hogesar 9,657]

[quote user="A Load of Squit"]

[quote user="king canary"]"The American businessmen have also revealed they are considering putting equity into the club - by buying more shares, possibly from the Supporters'' Trust - in order to help absorb losses related to relegation."

Sounds less familiar.[/quote]

Current onwners putting in thier own money due to the previous owner being fiscally negligent does sound familiar.

[/quote]

Yep, and how long will they provide that equity? What if it''s not enough?

Also, would be interesting to see the reactions on here had our current owners, on our first relegation from the Prem, came out and said it would likely take years to get back!

[norfolkngood 1,086]

Burnley Accounts look very good and a well run club

Have they got a director of football ???

Proves if you have the right chairman and Manager it is possible to go up to PL and stay there

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Westie,

Mao Tse Tung - a great student of history - was asked what he felt the effects of the 1789 French Revolution were on modern history.

‘It’s a bit early to say’ he said.

Parma

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="norfolkngood"]Burnley Accounts look very good and a well run club

Have they got a director of football ???

Proves if you have the right chairman and Manager it is possible to go up to PL and stay there[/quote]

These are the consecutive seasons the

current incumbents have been  in the top

flight.

 

 

Arsenal 93

Everton 65

Liverpool 57

Man Utd 44

Tottenham 41

Chelsea 30

Man City 17

--------------------

Southampton 7

West Ham 7

Palace 7

Leicester 5

Bournemouth 4

Watford 4

Burnley 3

Newcastle 2

Brighton 2

Huddersfield 2

Wolves 1

Cardiff 1

Fulham 1

[Nuff Said 5,120]

"Proves if you have the right chairman and Manager it is possible to go up to PL and stay there "

A self-fulfilling prophecy if ever I saw one. If they subsequently go down, do the chair and manager become wrong suddenly? All it ''proves'' is that it''s happened once.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="king canary"]"The American businessmen have also revealed they are considering putting equity into the club - by buying more shares, possibly from the Supporters'' Trust - in order to help absorb losses related to relegation."

Sounds less familiar.[/quote]

That''s an interesting one. Most trusts are looking to increase their shareholdings to give them a bigger say in how their clubs are run, so this would be a reversal of that policy if it materialised. One assumes if it went ahead they would have a guarantee of maintaing a trust director on the board. However, as they seem to have been overlooked with every major decision re takeovers, manager changes etc, even with a 21% shareholding, lessening their shareholding would surely lessen their influence even more.

(I''m assuming any monies received for their shares would be handed over to the club otherwise the only beneficiaries of such a transaction would be the Trust itself).

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="SwindonCanary"]I like to think we would have been the same a Burnley if we had stayed in the Premiership. Instead, we are a Championship team doing the same without the TV rights £105m !       [/quote] You''ve got that difference between us and Burnley the wrong way round Swindon; in contrast to Burnley, we did stay up in our first season back in the EPL. And we stayed up the following season too. 

How Burnley have done it almost exactly mirrors the course envisaged for us in McNally''s original seven year plan: a period of club and team rebuilding in the Championship, promotion, first season relegation, and then an immediate return to, and subsequent establishment in, the EPL. So what happened? The people were mesmerised by a false Messiah; he was believed to hold the key to eternal salvation but delivered only a cruel foretaste of Heaven. 

[Yellowbeagle 0]

Burnley are one bad season from being in the same division as us and if a club fails to get back up at the first attempt the financial pressure starts to mount as 50% of turnover being wages will be suddenly turned on its head. All clubs ours, Burnley''s, Swansea''s size are two to three seasons away from having to make huge changes to adapt to the disparities between the leagues financially. I hated all the consolidating in the premier league talk that used to be thrown about, there is no such thing.

[Big Vince 318]

The only way a Swansea City or Norwich City are going to stay in the EPL with any degree of permanency is if they get someone with a 10-year plan that has £3bn earmarked for transfer fees and wages. For that is how the boy Mansoor has done it at Man City.

Verdict: sheikh with big money and long-term commitment required.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="norfolkngood"]Burnley Accounts look very good and a well run club

Have they got a director of football ???

Proves if you have the right chairman and Manager it is possible to go up to PL and stay there[/quote]

But that is precisely the point.They didn''t stay in the Pl. They got relegated straight back down. This was their plan. Not to try to stay up, and so not to over-extend themselves in terms of wages and transfer fees, but to build slowly. And it worked to the extent that they then got promoted back (and again did not overspend), and now have stayed up for two seasons, although some pundits are already suggesting they may be in trouble this time. It is far too early to stay they are staying in the PL.

But the major point is that they made a conscious decision, as I suspect Cardiff have done, not to try to stay up initially. How many Norwich City fans would have ben happy if we had adopted that plan?

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"] .......... But the major point is that they made a conscious decision, as I suspect Cardiff have done, not to try to stay up initially. How many Norwich City fans would have ben happy if we had adopted that plan?[/quote] Well, that was exactly the original McNally plan and the vast majority appeared ready to endorse it when it was published. And then came "the Messiah". Ironically, if we had been relegated after one season, the plan would have remained intact and we very probably wouldn''t be in our present predicament.