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Delia to speak at the final say rally this Saturday in London

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" ... the biggest pro-European movement this county has ever seen."

Yet peanuts compared with the 17+ million who wanted out and quite a poor turnout from all those who voted remain it would seem.

Even the march against the significantly less important anti-fox hunting bill (which still went through the Commons comfortably incidentally) attracted some half a million.

These gatherings always appear far more populated in photographs taken from the air of these narrow London streets.

It would have needed many millions more to resonate in meaningful places.

Where were all those energetic youngsters who were supposed to have voted en-mass for continuation, as their futures would be put in dire peril by withdrawal? They would have the movement and time presumably. They number many millions apparently.

Instead we had a collection of odd-balls with silly banners and their children in tow. I always have a benign view of these protesters who turn out on such occasions with their kids, all suitably bedecked with flags and in colourful, outfits the significance of which they are clueless about.

One banner carrying lady particularly amused me. Holding aloft her carefully crafted masterpiece, full of little stars, proclaiming that she "loved EU" I was left wondering if she actually had a clue about what went on in Brussels and Strasbourg. The waste, the corruption, the irrelevance, the extreme federalist undercurrents and the impact of all this upon her annual tax bill.

Then, what about the mottled collection of orators assembled for the occasion. Led by that grizzled political chameleon Vince Cable --

Quote: "It would be disrespectful to voters and politically counter productive to call for a second referendum of the EU." c. 2016

Quote: "There is no great argument of liberal principle for free Eu movement; the economics is debateable, and the politics is conclusively hostile."

Make up your mind Sir Vince.

Then to Delia Smith. Of course our Dels had aright to attend, but who in their right mind considered that she had credence enough to speak?

Who assumed that this lady, this TV chef, this NCFC legend should have any importance when placed upon a political pedestal lecturing those in the know? That''s surely taking the cult of celebrity a bit far. Scraping the bottom of the barrel, or what?

I do love Anna Subrey (?) though ... not!

Loser''s march? Too true. Last throw of the dice? Inevitable.

If they lose the re-run they now desire will they want another until they get their self-opinionated way?

Importantly they seem to be blind to the fact that should we eventually get their remain vote then the EU elite will have the UK by the short and whats it''s.

The federalist gravy train would be full steam ahead, UK contributions would soar as our influence waned and we''d probably have the Euro forced upon us. In their greedy eyes our bolt would be shot.

Think on.

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Rudolph - what a load of claptrap. People grow up according to the environment they are brought up in, if they are brought up to be hardworking then they will most likely be hard working, if they are given everything and shown people being giving everything then they will expect that treatment going forwards. Now, who set the environment that millennials grew up in? It sure as hell wasn''t them.

Also, the reduction in pro ratad wages, mostly caused by the changes in the economy , which were caused by the actions of older generations than millennials (Gen X probably), similarly the reduction in life expectancy is mainly being caused by reductions in living standards, social care and general healthy living, 2 of which are the product of political and economic decisions, which weren''t made by millennials.

I''m not saying that they aren''t faultless, but, a lot of what you are lambasting them for is the product of circumstances and their upbringing. I know just as many older (and younger) generations who are happy to doss about taking money off the government either through not working or claiming benefits they shouldn''t have or need.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]You do realise we weren''t superior just because we happened to be born in a different generation don''t you Rudolph?

If you look.at our parents generations, and our grandparents generations they had very different challenges too. Some of them despaired of us.[/quote]

Perhaps they just despaired of you, Nigel!

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]" ... the biggest pro-European movement this county has ever seen."

Yet peanuts compared with the 17+ million who wanted out and quite a poor turnout from all those who voted remain it would seem.

Even the march against the significantly less important anti-fox hunting bill (which still went through the Commons comfortably incidentally) attracted some half a million.

These gatherings always appear far more populated in photographs taken from the air of these narrow London streets.

It would have needed many millions more to resonate in meaningful places.

Where were all those energetic youngsters who were supposed to have voted en-mass for continuation, as their futures would be put in dire peril by withdrawal? They would have the movement and time presumably. They number many millions apparently.

Instead we had a collection of odd-balls with silly banners and their children in tow. I always have a benign view of these protesters who turn out on such occasions with their kids, all suitably bedecked with flags and in colourful, outfits the significance of which they are clueless about.

One banner carrying lady particularly amused me. Holding aloft her carefully crafted masterpiece, full of little stars, proclaiming that she "loved EU" I was left wondering if she actually had a clue about what went on in Brussels and Strasbourg. The waste, the corruption, the irrelevance, the extreme federalist undercurrents and the impact of all this upon her annual tax bill.

Then, what about the mottled collection of orators assembled for the occasion. Led by that grizzled political chameleon Vince Cable --

Quote: "It would be disrespectful to voters and politically counter productive to call for a second referendum of the EU." c. 2016

Quote: "There is no great argument of liberal principle for free Eu movement; the economics is debateable, and the politics is conclusively hostile."

Make up your mind Sir Vince.

Then to Delia Smith. Of course our Dels had aright to attend, but who in their right mind considered that she had credence enough to speak?

Who assumed that this lady, this TV chef, this NCFC legend should have any importance when placed upon a political pedestal lecturing those in the know? That''s surely taking the cult of celebrity a bit far. Scraping the bottom of the barrel, or what?

I do love Anna Subrey (?) though ... not!

Loser''s march? Too true. Last throw of the dice? Inevitable.

If they lose the re-run they now desire will they want another until they get their self-opinionated way?

Importantly they seem to be blind to the fact that should we eventually get their remain vote then the EU elite will have the UK by the short and whats it''s.

The federalist gravy train would be full steam ahead, UK contributions would soar as our influence waned and we''d probably have the Euro forced upon us. In their greedy eyes our bolt would be shot.

Think on.[/quote]

Great post!

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Sorry Broadstair, I read your post got 5 words in and envisioned Tim Martin raving on about how he wasn''t going to buy French wine in his crappy chain of sub standard pubs. This turned me off your drivel even quicker than your drivel itself.

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"Sorry Broadstair, I read your post got 5 words in and envisioned Tim Martin raving on about how he wasn''t going to buy French wine in his crappy chain of sub standard pubs. This turned me off your drivel even quicker than your drivel itself."

Address the points rather than hurl insults.

Or is that all you have?

(I remain at a loss to comprehend your peculiar and quite irrelevant reference to the owner of a fairly successful, but inhospitable chain of pubs though. Have you a few agendas you need to air which cloud any sensible reasoning?)

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[quote user="cornish sam"]Rudolph - what a load of claptrap. People grow up according to the environment they are brought up in, if they are brought up to be hardworking then they will most likely be hard working, if they are given everything and shown people being giving everything then they will expect that treatment going forwards. Now, who set the environment that millennials grew up in? It sure as hell wasn''t them.

Also, the reduction in pro ratad wages, mostly caused by the changes in the economy , which were caused by the actions of older generations than millennials (Gen X probably), similarly the reduction in life expectancy is mainly being caused by reductions in living standards, social care and general healthy living, 2 of which are the product of political and economic decisions, which weren''t made by millennials.

I''m not saying that they aren''t faultless, but, a lot of what you are lambasting them for is the product of circumstances and their upbringing. I know just as many older (and younger) generations who are happy to doss about taking money off the government either through not working or claiming benefits they shouldn''t have or need.[/quote]

Fair response. But don''t just blame parents. The media, politics and the education system has a great deal of responsibility.

The ridiculous Blairite idea that half of young people need to go to universities was hard to resist but what did it achieve? Reduced value degrees, debt (like another income tax) a lack of in work experience and a sense of entitlement plus a shortage of skilled labour (filled from abroad).

And what ideologies were and still are promulgated in those ''universities?'' They are grooming factories and a good reason the voting age should be raised not lowered.

There is a sinister intent in lowering the voting age. The youth have been manipulated before in fascist and communist regimes. There is no intention to roundly educate just indoctrinate the maleable young.

Youth used to rebel. Youth culture used to challenge. Now they are just very nice but sheep like and this comes from someone who loves children and young people as most grandparents do. We did not vote for ourselves, we are not the future, we know that. We despair at only 40% of young people owning their own home, having student debt, struggling to afford a family of their own, not being given ''in work'' training and qualification as our generation had, the tragic environmental problems, the list goes on. These are our children and grandchildren - who do you think we voted for? In my case the Referendum cost me financially but that balances out when I hear about major employers increasing apprenticeships to fill skill shortages.

To bring this back to football. When we were in the EPL we brought in ready made from overseas. Now we have to create from our own youngsters and I''d rather be a Championship club doing that than a Premier League side ignoring them.

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"Sorry Broadstair, I read your post got 5 words in and envisioned Tim Martin .... "

Amusingly my first five words were: "Yet peanuts compared with the ..."

Could have been about anything, including Delia''s wealth compared with various other club owners in fact.

As I suggested, agenda ridden, and talking about drivel. That surely takes the biscuit. Tim Martin? Yer what?

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The good news for those wishing to remain in the EU is that a General Election this year or in the near future is highly likely.

The bad news is: who the hell amongst the rabble on all sides of our political system do I vote for? I honestly no longer know, it isn''t enough any more to vote ''against'' a party because the recipient party is riven with division and incompetents. I suspect many, many people will feel the same way.

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Tbh I got about halfway through the Broadstairs piece, it was neither not that well written nor was it particularly considered.

The fact is, 16.1m voted to stay, and opening ''thought'' seemed to be that every single one should have been there, the fact they weren''t makes it an irrelevance. This is preposterous. Fact is, I personally know several people who wanted to leave based on what they were told in 2016 but have since realised that a good half of what they were promised is never going to happen. They have changed their mind as they are entitled to do. In a true democracy they would be given a chance to vote on the final option.

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This is no reason why a confirmatory vote on the deal shouldn''t take place.

e.g.

1) "We had a vote, it is undemocratic to have another"

No, sorry - we didn''t know what we were voting for. People may have understood the consequences of leaving (although I don''t think for a second most did) but we didn''t know what future arrangements would be like. Leave, contrary to what Farage et al will tell you, doesn''t just mean leave. It could mean EEA. It could also mean riots because of food shortages.

2) "You lost, get over it"

Grow up. This is the most important decision this country faces and will shape its future for generations. It is perfectly reasonable to take a look at that future and decide if we want it or not.

3) "Will of the people"

The people change, along with their "will." Even if no-one had changed their mind through demographic changes alone the population is now marginally remain.

4) "Young people are brainwashed blah blah something about millennials"

See 2) and grow up.

I could go on.

There is no doubt that a vote, if and when it happens, will be divisive but in most developed countries such a thing (or a super-majority requirement for constitutional change) is pretty normal.

The only people vehemently opposed to another vote are the arch-leavers. Ask yourself - if Brexit is so awesome, and going to be so brilliant for everyone, why are they so scared of putting the deal to a vote?

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Rudolph (I''m not quoting because it doesn''t work and would make this messy).

I''m not just blaming the parents, there are a whole host of factors and multiple generations responsible and whilst I agree with some of your criticisms it is not fair to blame the millennials alone. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the stupidity of expecting 50% of people to go to university, just like I disagree with the rebranding of polys to unis. It devalues a university education which should be for the most able. However, I also believe that the university education should be free as it then encourages people to study things they are really interested in as opposed to doing a cost/benefit analysis to decide if the degree is worth the 50k of debt. This level of debt also contributes towards the perceived lack of rebellion from the youth as they are too concerned with coming out of the unis (previously a hotbed of activism and recolt) with a bit of paper that is perceived to be worth the debt.

Some of your comments though are reinforcing the sense of entitlement, why should more young people be able to afford a house? In some countries the expectation is to rent (e.g. Germany only 51% own their own home), more of a problem is the lack of social housing thanks to the massive selloffs of council houses that were never replaced. And to the point of low skilled workers, if the young natives aren''t willing to do it now (hence the number of eastern Europeans and others filling those roles) then why would they be willing to do it after Brexit? 50 years ago thousands of Londoners used to go to Kent every summer for the harvest, that isn''t a something that''s going to just start happening again unless wages are astronomical, which would then make the produce unaffordable.

I could go in a lot more on this topic, but I''m not going to here. To surmise:

You might have voted thinking it was for your children and grandchildren, but, you are voting based on the experiences of your generation, the world has moved on immeasurably since then and we can''t go back. Globalisation, the internet, people''s attitude/expectations have changed everything and the only way to get ahead is to embrace it and be at the forefront. The EU is in no ways perfect, but we are stronger being part of it than outside it and when this becomes blatantly apparent and we try to get back in we will be shafted again. I fear for my children''s generation, they are already facing so many problems with environmental issues, economic problems, overcrowding, increasing political and military tensions. Isolationism does no one any favours and just makes it harder to address global problems, we shouldn''t have done that to our kids.

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No idea who to vote for.

Late to the party Rudolph but you got there in the end.

As for the "Generation Game" it''s our lot who are responsible for the things you are whining about. The Millennials were born into it.

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"The fact is, 16.1m voted to stay, and opening ''thought'' seemed to be that every single one should have been there."

How silly!

What a ridiculous spin to put upon something written that does not fit in with your own view.

Read my post again without your preconceived agenda to the fore.

Yet another who makes blanket and derisory statements without the ability to address the points make with any degree of good sense.

As for your anecdotal points about "several" people you have met ho have subsequently changed their minds.

We continually hear this rant, but it''s never backed up by facts, rather than the views of "several" people of course.

I''ve met a few, who having seen the way the Eu behaves when under threat of having the gravy train derailed would now vote leave. I consider that irrelevant though. It was never a black and white decision for most after all.

More relevant are the several polls concerned with this matter in recent months and they have been consistent in their inconsistency. The one that indicated the gap to leave has widened being contradicted by another that claimed it had narrowed.

The initial polls predicted a big remain vote however.

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Cornish Sam, your posts are all of the Millennium beleif that everything is somebody else''s fault and nothing is your responsibility. It''s up to someone else to fix your problems.

The thing is, if you''re reached adulthood and you''re not ready to accept personal responsibility then maybe your generation are not yet mature enough to be considered adults. Rather than lowering the age of voting there is a very strong case for raising the voting age to 21 at least.

We saw in the loser''s march that the young were well under represented the protesters were a mixture of middle aged Waitrose shoppers and aromatherapy practicioners. Where were the Millennials? Same in the original referendum. No where to be seen. A whole new lost generation.

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I think you also have to accept that some of the older generation voted Leave purely on the grounds of bigoted racism. I know of a few who voted purely for this reason.

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"I think you also have to accept that some of the older generation voted Leave purely on the grounds of bigoted racism. I know of a few who voted purely for this reason."

And how many of the ''older generation'' voted out of the fear generated by Osborne''s doom and gloom pre-referendum imaginary budget, or indeed the "advisory" leaflet put through their letter boxes at the instigation of the Cameron government.

Neither of which were honest.

There were a kaleidoscope of opinions and reasons which led people to chose their box of preference on the day and they do not really stand up to being disected in any way shape or form.

Opinions will always be in state of flux, particularly with regards to such a complicated issue.

Should ''remain'' win any re-run by a similar margin should it then be the best of three and we have a third?

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]"I think you also have to accept that some of the older generation voted Leave purely on the grounds of bigoted racism. I know of a few who voted purely for this reason."

And how many of the ''older generation'' voted out of the fear generated by Osborne''s doom and gloom pre-referendum imaginary budget, or indeed the "advisory" leaflet put through their letter boxes at the instigation of the Cameron government.

Neither of which were honest.

There were a kaleidoscope of opinions and reasons which led people to chose their box of preference on the day and they do not really stand up to being disected in any way shape or form.

Opinions will always be in state of flux, particularly with regards to such a complicated issue.

Should ''remain'' win any re-run by a similar margin should it then be the best of three and we have a third?[/quote]
It would be a 4th.
Nigel Farage said that if the result of the 2nd was 52-48 there should be a 3rd referendum, he went very quiet on that opinion.

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The next one will be the third one. Therefore if we voted to remain you''d have to shut up indefinitely. Quite a good reason for people to vote remain.

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[quote user="cornish sam"]Rudolph (I''m not quoting because it doesn''t work and would make this messy).

I''m not just blaming the parents, there are a whole host of factors and multiple generations responsible and whilst I agree with some of your criticisms it is not fair to blame the millennials alone. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the stupidity of expecting 50% of people to go to university, just like I disagree with the rebranding of polys to unis. It devalues a university education which should be for the most able. However, I also believe that the university education should be free as it then encourages people to study things they are really interested in as opposed to doing a cost/benefit analysis to decide if the degree is worth the 50k of debt. This level of debt also contributes towards the perceived lack of rebellion from the youth as they are too concerned with coming out of the unis (previously a hotbed of activism and recolt) with a bit of paper that is perceived to be worth the debt.

Some of your comments though are reinforcing the sense of entitlement, why should more young people be able to afford a house? In some countries the expectation is to rent (e.g. Germany only 51% own their own home), more of a problem is the lack of social housing thanks to the massive selloffs of council houses that were never replaced. And to the point of low skilled workers, if the young natives aren''t willing to do it now (hence the number of eastern Europeans and others filling those roles) then why would they be willing to do it after Brexit? 50 years ago thousands of Londoners used to go to Kent every summer for the harvest, that isn''t a something that''s going to just start happening again unless wages are astronomical, which would then make the produce unaffordable.

I could go in a lot more on this topic, but I''m not going to here. To surmise:

You might have voted thinking it was for your children and grandchildren, but, you are voting based on the experiences of your generation, the world has moved on immeasurably since then and we can''t go back. Globalisation, the internet, people''s attitude/expectations have changed everything and the only way to get ahead is to embrace it and be at the forefront. The EU is in no ways perfect, but we are stronger being part of it than outside it and when this becomes blatantly apparent and we try to get back in we will be shafted again. I fear for my children''s generation, they are already facing so many problems with environmental issues, economic problems, overcrowding, increasing political and military tensions. Isolationism does no one any favours and just makes it harder to address global problems, we shouldn''t have done that to our kids.[/quote]

Good discussion, thank you. I am always able to see other points of view.

I was personally ''just'' in favour of leaving as I love Europe and the various peoples. I have travelled extensively and value the experiences. But I have not changed my mind for some of the reasons given.

I don''t expect to die of old age any time soon but I am angered by this argument that as a number of elderly persons have passed on the vote will swing. I find that incredibly offensive. I probably reacted accordingly.

Once again, good debate. OTBC

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"It would be a 4th."

Not really.

That first many years ago was based on the reality that the EU bore absolutely no resemblance to what it has become.

The goalposts are now on a different pitch.

At the same time Tony Benn''s foresight expressed at the time was surely and uncannily spot on.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]No idea who to vote for.

Late to the party Rudolph but you got there in the end.

As for the "Generation Game" it''s our lot who are responsible for the things you are whining about. The Millennials were born into it.[/quote]

Nigel. If you feel so guilty I suggest you go stand outside the Forum in a coarse hair mankini and flagellate yourself with an 1p5wich scarf wrapped in the European flag. The BBC would rush down from their offices to venerate you.

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]I think you also have to accept that some of the older generation voted Leave purely on the grounds of bigoted racism. I know of a few who voted purely for this reason.[/quote]

Like other offences those associated with racism used to be judged on a ''reasonable person'' test IE objectively.

But it was made a subjective offence whereby is any person believes a comment or action was racist then it was. It allowed onlookers to be offended on behalf of someone else and declare an offence was committed.

This will be genuine in some cases but it is basically a ''thought crime''. This drives peoples attitudes underground, they don''t debate so they don''t learn and this is also why pollsters couldn''t predict Brexit or the Trump election because people who voted one way generally kept quiet.

It would be reasonable, listening to discussions on ALL levels to believe that the Remain debate is overwhelmingly the main view. It clearly is not.

We now have ''dog whistle racism'' or ''racist tropes.'' It is like a witch hunt, like the Inquisition. History doesn''t change because people don''t change and one thing people will do is seek to exercise power and a very handy way to do that is to accuse.

If you accuse someone else of racism or any other ism it not only puts them on the back foot because they have to defend themselves against this subjective charge it also ingratiates the accuser who is basically saying, as judge I must be a non-racist etc or basically better than you.

British society is incredibly fair, probably the fairest in the world, we like to criticise ourselves and we are not perfect but this is so. We are also open to criticism on the subject so vulnerable to malicious intent.

Do we see much overt racism? No. Are we all aware of each others differences - absolutely as this is to be human. On this basis and on the current threshold we are all racist: me, you Hoola Han Solo, everyone. That is human, we are imperfect. It is an awareness of our faults though which makes us civilised.

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]"The fact is, 16.1m voted to stay, and opening ''thought'' seemed to be that every single one should have been there."

How silly!

What a ridiculous spin to put upon something written that does not fit in with your own view.

Read my post again without your preconceived agenda to the fore.

[/quote]
You said "Yet peanuts compared with the 17+ million who wanted out and quite a

poor turnout from all those who voted remain it would seem.

Even the march against the significantly less important anti-fox

hunting bill (which still went through the Commons comfortably

incidentally) attracted some half a million.
"
How are we take that as anything other than an unfavourable comparison between the number of people who voted remain and the number at the march? I''ve read your post again as requested and it still looks to me (and Branston Pickle) as if you are saying that unless most of the 16.1m were on the march it was a "poor turnout".

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]Yet another who makes blanket and derisory statements without the ability to address the points make with any degree of good sense.

[/quote]
You call the marchers "oddball", "silly", "clueless"... Nuff said.

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]As for your anecdotal points about "several" people you have met ho have subsequently changed their minds.

We continually hear this rant, but it''s never backed up by facts, rather than the views of "several" people of course.

I''ve met a few, who having seen the way the Eu behaves when under threat of having the gravy train derailed would now vote leave.

[/quote]
You speak "good sense" but people who you disagree with are "ranting". Nuff said again.
[quote user="BroadstairsR"] I consider that irrelevant though. It was never a black and white decision for most after all.

More relevant are the several polls concerned with this matter in recent months and they have been consistent in their inconsistency. The one that indicated the gap to leave has widened being contradicted by another that claimed it had narrowed.

The initial polls predicted a big remain vote however.[/quote]
So the polls are relevant but also inaccurate. So not very relevant then?

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That''s your level Rudolph despite the weak attempts to show a more reasonable persona.

Have you managed to work your gender out yet? I''m still stuck on mine so perhaps I''m fluid. This theory was given to the Millennials by a guy who''s 62. So we should have more chance of understanding it than them.

Thank goodness I''m a genuine thicko...

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[quote user="Herman"]All the leave gang had to do was persuade people that they had made the right decision. All they have done is make the biggest pro European movement this country has ever seen. Not bad going for two and a half years work.[/quote]So true, but it never their fault[:P]

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Let''s look at your "Great post":
[quote user="BroadstairsR"]" ... the biggest pro-European movement this county has ever seen."

Yet peanuts compared with the 17+ million who wanted out and quite a poor turnout from all those who voted remain it would seem.

Even the march against the significantly less important anti-fox hunting bill (which still went through the Commons comfortably incidentally) attracted some half a million.

These gatherings always appear far more populated in photographs taken from the air of these narrow London streets. [/quote]
So the photos look like there were a lot of people there because they were taken from the air? I don''t understand the point you are trying to make here. That there weren''t 700,000 people there? Or that 700,000 people look like more? So what?
[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

It would have needed many millions more to resonate in meaningful places.[/quote]
Possibly true, but equally are you seriously suggesting that a march by 700,000 people is not significant? It was a very impressive turnout, ranking as one of the biggest public demonstrations ever in the UK, especially as we live in a time where people tend to do their protecting in different ways, i.e. online.

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]Where were all those energetic youngsters who were supposed to have voted en-mass for continuation, as their futures would be put in dire peril by withdrawal? They would have the movement and time presumably.[/quote]
It''s nice of you to make assumptions about the youngsters for them, especially when these assumptions conveniently match your views. Can I suggest that many of them would have been unable to afford to go (people actually paid for transport to go the march), at work, or unable to break commitments.
[quote user="BroadstairsR"]They number many millions apparently.

Instead we had a collection of odd-balls with silly banners and their children in tow. I always have a benign view of these protesters who turn out on such occasions with their kids, all suitably bedecked with flags and in colourful, outfits the significance of which they are clueless about.

One banner carrying lady particularly amused me. Holding aloft her carefully crafted masterpiece, full of little stars, proclaiming that she "loved EU" I was left wondering if she actually had a clue about what went on in Brussels and Strasbourg. The waste, the corruption, the irrelevance, the extreme federalist undercurrents and the impact of all this upon her annual tax bill. [/quote]
Again, good of you to make assumptions about people you know nothing about, based on a banner they are holding.
Do you "have a clue" of the impact of leaving on business of the additional border controls and reduced immigration numbers affecting staffing, international cooperation in police investigations, visa requirements on tourism, air traffic control, medicine regulation and the rest? Because they''ve been covered in huge detail by both EU supporters and opposition so the detail is there to be read. Can you point me to anything credible on significant levels of EU corruption, waste and irrelevance? I''m not saying they don''t exist, but I am arguing that to expect any organisation to be perfect is unrealistic and pointing to isolated incidents is meaningless and actually just scare mongering, which I hope you would agree is much too common at the moment. I''m sure there are examples of all these in the UK government too, but apparently you want to give them more power.
As for "extreme federalist undercurrents" 1) the use of the word extreme is just alarmist and without justification (free free to provide contrary evidence), 2) the EU is well aware that the desire for closer unification is not popular anywhere in Europe and they haven''t been pushing for this for a long time now and 3) you haven''t made any reference to "extreme" facist/racist "undercurrents" in some Leave supporting groups - why not? Much more worrying I would argue.
[quote user="BroadstairsR"]Then, what about the mottled collection of orators assembled for the occasion. Led by that grizzled political chameleon Vince Cable --

Quote: "It would be disrespectful to voters and politically counter productive to call for a second referendum of the EU." c. 2016

Quote: "There is no great argument of liberal principle for free Eu movement; the economics is debateable, and the politics is conclusively hostile."

Make up your mind Sir Vince.

Then to Delia Smith. Of course our Dels had aright to attend, but who in their right mind considered that she had credence enough to speak?

Who assumed that this lady, this TV chef, this NCFC legend should have any importance when placed upon a political pedestal lecturing those in the know? That''s surely taking the cult of celebrity a bit far. Scraping the bottom of the barrel, or what? [/quote]
Presumably you would either describe yourself by your profession or as retired? But that doesn''t preclude you from expressing your opinion. Why does being a celebrity restrict other people from talking about their beliefs and campaigning for what they think is important? It wouldn''t have something to do with the fact you disagree with them? People are allowed to have more than one skill/enthusiasm aren''t they?
[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

I do love Anna Subrey (?) though ... not! [/quote]
Thanks for that.
At least you have avoided using the ridiculous language of "traitor" and "betrayal" that we have seen more than once. Would you agree this is at minimum unhelpful and at worst downright inflammatory?

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]Loser''s march? Too true. Last throw of the dice? Inevitable.

If they lose the re-run they now desire will they want another until they get their self-opinionated way?

Importantly they seem to be blind to the fact that should we eventually get their remain vote then the EU elite will have the UK by the short and whats it''s.

The federalist gravy train would be full steam ahead, UK contributions would soar as our influence waned and we''d probably have the Euro forced upon us. In their greedy eyes our bolt would be shot. [/quote]
On the night of the referendum result, Nigel Farage, when he though he''d lost, said the matter wasn''t over and there would have to be another vote. Now it doesn''t suit him, there shouldn''t be.
And once again you throw words like "self-opinionated" around about people you disagree with but from what I can see they apply as much to you and your camp.
If we pull out of leaving now, we get to keep all the special conditions negotiated since Maggie''s era. If we leave, we are back to square one. The EU would be delighted to keep us and are as likely to give us additional "concessions" as increase our contributions. If you can prove otherwise, please do, otherwise it''s speculation either way. And from what I''ve seen, speculation from the Leave camp so far on how easy the negotiating would be, how the German car industry would overrule the EU politicians or how we will get £350 million to give to the NHS has all been wildly inaccurate.
[quote user="BroadstairsR"]Think on.[/quote]
You too.

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