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nutty nigel

But we're not Brighton....

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These are the consecutive seasons the current PL clubs have been in the

top flight.

 

 

Arsenal 93

Everton 65

Liverpool 57

Man Utd 44

Tottenham 41

Chelsea 30

Man City 17

--------------------

Southampton 7

West Ham 7

Palace 7

Leicester 5

Bournemouth 4

Watford 4

Burnley 3

Newcastle 2

Brighton 2

Huddersfield 2

Wolves 1

Cardiff 1

Fulham 1

 

This churn means that we have 13 clubs, including us, in this season’s

championship who have recently (last 10 years) been in the premier league. That’s

without the three currently in League One. So that''s 16 clubs with a recent PL

history. All of which had parachute payments

 

Now if you add the perennial under achievers – Derby, Forest, Ipswich,

Leeds and Sheff Wed, who have avoided the PL during the last decade, we

suddenly have 21 clubs whose supporters believe should be in the PL.

41 clubs into 20 places doesn''t work. The above churn is what makes the Championship such a good league. Long may it continue.

 

It’s this reality that we should judge our club on rather than the

continual use of clubs who happen to be above us at any given time.

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Just under a third of the curent PL clubs have been there for only 2 consecutive seasons
and half have only managed 5 seasons in a row
so much for the continuous bleat about ''consolidation''

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if you''re not one of the top 6 or 7 I imagine the odds of you becoming a championship team within the next 5 years are very low indeed, Stoke and WBA have finally dropped back down and as well as Burnley are doing right now their time will eventually come.

Always annoys me when people say we wasted the premier league money and now find ourselves frantically having to cut costs. its going to be the same for every team who gets relegated. It will be the same again for us if we have a few more seasons in the premier league in the near future.

With every consecutive season in the premier your costs rise (wages) to a level that won''t be sustainable upon your return to the championship.

The only people who have an excuse for not knowing about the big money involved in the premier league these days are those down the road :)

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An honest and realistic topic about the truth for all clubs outside the top 6 , proving for the vast majority in the top two divisions that life in the Prem is just temporary.
Financially, Forest are the club who have recently found a pot of money so are spending right now. But for every Wolves who do that and succeed to get into he Prem (and which, like most clubs  may be just temporary) there are clubs like Derby, Sheff, Wed and especially Villa who spent big in last couple of years, failed to get into the Prem, and who this season need to cut back pretty hard.
For our club, we have never "found" a pot of money such as the above clubs, we earned it, thru merit of being promoted to the Prem successfully, the old fashioned way, and also on more than one occasion. Also shows that for all clubs, they can dream about being ambitious, having their moment in the sun, but ultimately have to cut the cloth accordingly when the sun hides behind the clouds. Even more so for our self sustaining model.
Beyond doubt it proves our club as ambitious, competitive but same time  living within our means.

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Good post Nutty N, echoes my thoughts as well.

The Champs is definitely a competitive league. There was a time not so long ago when you could say "If you want to watch Britush football, watch the Champs".

It has to be considered "Prem League 2" more than ever before now with the rising costs of British players due to so many foreign imports!

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We know all that. It has been the case since the inception and the forever changing scene that for the most part is the Premier League is even more reason for us not to accept continual Championship existence as our lot for the foreseeable future as the leader of the pack, Michael Bailey, and his numerous followers on here seem to be doing.

Last season the Premier League consisted of more than half of the clubs in it that I would consider to be around our ''level,'' whatever that means, and in Burnley, Leicester, Palace, Bournemouth, Watford, Brighton, Huddersfield, Southampton, Swansea, Stoke and West Brom we have a list of clubs who will be/could be competing with us in the second tier sooner rather than later.

Financial clout will be important, it always has been, but it has been continually proven that this is not the only factor promoting success.

The Championship is tough, but the Premier League will never be impenetrable on more meagre means as two ''rookie'' managers in Lambert and Neil have proven at Carrow Road and others, like Dyche, have done elsewhere and although the last two years have witnessed an influx of cash as never before there will always be scoop for good planning via market nous, youth policy and sound management to succeed.

I am liking the self-sustaining model adopted at the moment, partly because we have little choice, partly because our fingers are a still burning from various over ambitious forays into a transfer market, which is getting ridiculous in any case, and partly because, thus far, we seem to be making a good job of it. It is early days but our constant search for young talent from all leagues as never before has much merit and I, personally, requiesce in the fact that I have completely lost track of all the promising youngsters currently on our books. The improvements in the Academy facilities will surely enhance this trend.

Recent history has probably seen us labelled as a yo-yo club and in view of the distorted nature of the top league I would remain happy for this to continue.

As one of the few it seems who''s ambitions start with this coming season, despite the fact that this could be self-denial, I will remain positive until events prove my stance unrealistic.

It may be that the time will come when, stagnating in the second tier, we yearn for that rich investor but I feel that we have little choice but to persist with our current model for the time being.

It may come crashing down, and this may be as early as the next year, but for now I am concentrating on just the squad construction over the Summer and my hopes that Daniel Farke is finally able to justify his role and do justice to the decent hand that he has been given.

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This is as realistic a thread as you can get.  The arguments for getting to the PL and not spending too much when you get there are clear - get yor promotion - if you can - spend a little to improve your squad and pay them better, but overall have a strategy that doesn''t knock you back too much when you are relegated, be it in one, three, five or ten years. 
The problem for all clubs in the championship is getting to the top of the heap so you can get that promotion when there are so many other strong clubs trying to do it as well.  It''s tough - and as much as we may not have as much money to spend as some other clubs, we have always done pretty well over the years to overcome that - and there is no reason to suppose that can''t continue.
The financial world has changed a lot in ten years - no longer is large debt manageable as it used to be - banks won''t allow it.  The only way is now a rich benefactor - such as Brighton have got - or a rich "investor" - and we can all see clubs where that has worked and clubs where it has not worked.  
Our way of doing it - the self-sustainable approach - means we have to be better than the rest in terms of footballing ethos, of togetherness, of youth policy, of getting top quality loanees in, of fitness etc etc.  That is never going to be easy, but as the 80''s early 90''s proved - it can be done. Yes, the finances are a bit mad compared to then, but money - as always - is not the whole answer.

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That''s a good post Lakey, and pretty much how I see it.

And being in the Champs allows us to find and develop young talent along the way.

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Shtorp! This Pink ''Un thread is not ready yet. Where is the talk of a firesale? Why no "you couldn''t make it up"? There is an alarming absence of talk on protests and the Stowmarket Two. You can''t rush these things, guys. There is too much common sense and consensus going on here. Mix it up a bit will ya!!?

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These stats suggests that when you get to the PL you should hold back a few mill for a rainy day and not blow it all on an overpriced prima.

But would the fans accept that?

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No they wouldn''t Rocky. When the Naismith transfer was uncertain the complaint on here was that we should review our wage structure. The money''s never enough to satisfy people. I think I''m right in saying that season we had a bigger net spend than Chelsea.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]No they wouldn''t Rocky. When the Naismith transfer was uncertain the complaint on here was that we should review our wage structure. The money''s never enough to satisfy people. I think I''m right in saying that season we had a bigger net spend than Chelsea.[/quote]
Than Spurs, I think, nutty.  Who spent more than 100m but sold Bale for not much less, and others. But your general point is right, that we spent a record amount.

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I love the championship,it has to be one of the most competitive leagues in the world and yet so underrated.

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No. We should only be judging Norwich City on what is actually going on here.

The Suffolk Socialists have repeated a number of the same mistakes over a very long period of time and these mistakes have had a crippling effect on the club''s ability to compete.

Just as one example there is the penchant for holding onto managers for far too long. Clearly Neil should have been replaced by Rowett in November 2016. Hughton should have been replaced before Christmas in that relegation season. If we go back further, Roeder, Grant and especially Worthy should have been sacked earlier than they were and of course Gunn and Adams should never have been appointed at all.

Another big failure has been not investing enough in the academy at a much earlier stage.

Another big failure has been the high turnover of staff in scouting and recruitment. The people appointed have lacked commitment - probably because they don''t bleed any yellow and green at all.

Another big failure has been the absence at Board level of a Nominations Committee consisting of independent non-executive directors whose job is to find the right people with complementary attributes and skills to sit on the Board. The club is still being run like a private limited company instead of a proper PLC.

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So are the Suffolk Socialists in charge at all the other 21 clubs in the same boat? No wonder they''re failing with that workload. They''re not youngsters anymore and the logistics alone of running 20+ football clubs all over the country would be too much even for a young man like me. No wonder they''ve roped their young nephew in.....

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[quote user="Big Vince"]No. We should only be judging Norwich City on what is actually going on here.

The Suffolk Socialists have repeated a number of the same mistakes over a very long period of time and these mistakes have had a crippling effect on the club''s ability to compete.

Just as one example there is the penchant for holding onto managers for far too long. Clearly Neil should have been replaced by Rowett in November 2016. Hughton should have been replaced before Christmas in that relegation season. If we go back further, Roeder, Grant and especially Worthy should have been sacked earlier than they were and of course Gunn and Adams should never have been appointed at all.

Another big failure has been not investing enough in the academy at a much earlier stage.

Another big failure has been the high turnover of staff in scouting and recruitment. The people appointed have lacked commitment - probably because they don''t bleed any yellow and green at all.

Another big failure has been the absence at Board level of a Nominations Committee consisting of independent non-executive directors whose job is to find the right people with complementary attributes and skills to sit on the Board. The club is still being run like a private limited company instead of a proper PLC.[/quote]
Yet despite all that failure -
1) Initially got a decent enough looking manager in Bruce Rioch - against a background of no money as a legacy of the Chase years.
2) We still managed to get to the PL under Worthy - against a long period

of an awful financial background that again was that legacy of the Chase era.  No

money at all for decent transfers, just managing to scrape Huckerby in

by hook or by crook. 
3)  Still managed to get a decent enough squad and manager for the League 1 campaign - again against a crippling debt.  
4)  Still managed four seasons out of ten in the PL - with a CEO who insisted on spending every last penny on players rather than on infrastructure - leaving us with a financial problem to deal with.
In short, the problems that the majority shareholders have had financially have been severe virtually since day one - and yet here we are, on track to be a self-sustaining club, no real debt,  with a progressive management structure with footballing decisions largely delegated away from the board. Some would say they have learned from their mistakes.  They are not without fault - mistakes have been made, but you name me one club who''s owners haven''t made mistakes - you won''t be able to do it.  The club is changing, it is developing.  It''s good to see it.  People in charge who care and have stuck with it through all the difficult times and who have recognised and corrected facets of the club that were not working.
It''s been an uphill struggle since 1996 - finances virtually hopeless from day one due to what they inherited - but throughout all that some ecstatic successes along the way as well as some dismal failures - really it''s the story of any football club.  If only you could get that chip off your shoulder Vince, you might see both sides of it, unfortunately I don''t think you will be able to. 

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You seem to be suggesting that the Suffolk Socialists are still suffering with the legacy of Chase - more than 20 years since he left.

Are you saying we would be better off without the training ground at Colney and that Trowse (which was leased from the council) was a better facility?

Are you saying we would be better off without buying the River End car park (which again was leased from the council) that enabled the Suffolk Socialists to build the flats which put money back into the club?

Are you saying we would be better off without the buying the land behind the South Stand which enabled the Suffolk Socialists to build an 8,000 seater stand (which can be extended further with a cantilevered second tier) and provide car parking? Had that land not been bought then the SS would have been limited to a much smaller structure than is there now.

It is really quite pathetic to be complaining about the financial legacy of Chase after all this time. Did Chase complain about Sir Arthur''s legacy? He left the club £2 million in debt which was quite a lot of money in those days, but instead of complaining, Chase got on with the job of making NCFC into one of the most successful clubs in the land in the late 80s, early 90s. Why haven''t the SS done the same?

The answer is very, very simple - they are no good. They have not learnt from their mistakes at all. They have repeated them over and over. That is a sign of rank stupidity.

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[quote user="Big Vince"]Are you saying we would be better off without the training ground at Colney and that Trowse was a better facility?
Are you saying we would be better off without buying the River End car park?
Are you saying we would be better off without the buying the land behind the South Stand which enabled the Suffolk Socialists to build an 8,000 seater stand and provide car parking?[/quote]
Perhaps if the Halvergate Horror had spent money on the team instead of all that land we''d have still been in the Prem and the Halvergate Horror wouldn''t have had to sell out to Watling and ultimately the Suffolk Socialists.
The Halvergate Horror lined his own pockets nicely though Vinnie as you know....

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But the HH spent plenty of money on the team.

Gunn, Crook, Bowen, Fleck, Townsend, Linighan, Newsome, Newman, Ekoku, etc.

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While I don''t agree with Big Vince on most things, he''s right to say that blaming any of our current financial issues on an owner who left about 25 years ago stretches things a bit.

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I won''t have a word said against big fat Bob. He worried about me so much he wrote to me to find out if I was dead......

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]I won''t have a word said against big fat Bob. He worried about me so much he wrote to me to find out if I was dead......[/quote]
Ah yes Nutty that was when he was on his share hunting expedition looking for fans to sell their shares. Those that agreed to sell thought they were selling them back to the Football Club until the cheque dropped through the letterbox made out by Chase Builders.

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I think my point to Vince - since he seems to revere the Chase era so much - is that Chase made mistakes too - and left the club in a parlous state financially.  He couldn''t magic up the money to continue the dream after 95 and reality caught up with him - and us.  He left us some great memories on the pitch and some good infrastructure - but the cost was high - maybe too high.   The club was a basket case after 95 and although the present majority shareholders have made mistakes too, the present state of the club is borne out of it''s own history and the point at which DS/MJW took over was a rescue that only they as fans could do - only they had enough money to do something to help - there was no-one else. 
So they make mistakes too - Chase made mistakes - all football chairmen/owners make mistakes. That is the nature of running a football club.  Successes and failures, some good decisions, some bad.  It''s a hugely uncertain business and the pitfalls are there for all to see - clubs that overspend and get into financial trouble, clubs that get rich owners yet their clubs fail to succeed, dodgy owners who use their club for their own financial purposes. 
We are at present on a road to self-sustainability.  The size of the wallet isn''t going to suddenly grow - and if we get promoted, the windfall will not be spent just on players (another mistake btw - by McNally) but will go towards building with the longer term in mind.  So the anti-brigade - who are entitled to their views of course - can wish for something different or something better - but they have no answer - there has to be someone with the money, the desire and the suitability to take it on - and that is the problem. 
It could happen - someone could come along promising £200m to the club and who is honourable - and despite what has been said in interviews, it could happen - but until someone does come along with an offer they can''t refuse - we have what we have.  A club run to be sustainable in a modern progressive way on the field, with footballing decisions largely delegated to football people. 
Whoopee, lets just get behind the project and stop wishing for something different when that something is a pipe dream that is out of our control.
Accept what is, not what isn''t.

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