Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Derby Canary

Next Season

Recommended Posts

[quote user="norfolkngood"]My dislike is from day one Webber has made excuses given himself and Farke time saying it will take 4 transfer windows etc

He has blamed everyone from the past and the way the money was used also

Now this transition period has to stop and we need Results from Webber and co

When Lambert took over in LG1 he had to hit the ground running results from day one even though the club had new players after the Roeder loans and Gunn

when Big sam took over at Everton there was no this will take me a long time he had to get results and fast

Webber and Farke have to get results we have heard all the excuses no time for Action[/quote]
Lambert took over a decent squad from Gunn. Admittedly we were lucky that we had such a big squad so the failures of Theoklitos, Whalley, Gill, Tudur-Jones, Maric and McVeigh could be brushed under the carpet. Certainly bringing the squad together and the performances in such a short space of time were really impressive, but he still had Holt, Hoolahan and Russell, who were too good for League One.
When we went up to the Championship, Lambert was backed to sign a new team, with Ruddy, Tierney, Barnett, Ward, Fox, Surman, Crofts, Jackson, and loans for Lansbury and Pacheco. There were well publicized bids for Elliot Bennett and Steve Morison in the January window, and and a deal had been agreed for Craig Mackail-Smith (until Peterboro moved the goalposts).
When Webber was appointed, with an average salary of £28k per week it would have been pointed out that we couldn''t afford to keep pretty much anybody once the parachute payments ran out, and that we had players that no one would take off our hands.Aside from Cureton, the Lambert era wasn''t left with any expensive deadweights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When we went up to the Championship, Lambert was backed to sign a new team, with Ruddy, Tierney, Barnett, Ward, Fox, Surman, Crofts, Jackson, and loans for Lansbury and Pacheco

so Lambert can do a large Turn over of players and get them playing together But Farke and Webber can not ?

the proof is in there that some managers can get a squad together and quickly and still win games because he got them playing to a style that suited those players

We sold players yes to lower wage bill but still had a strong core of players left last season

it is not how many players go or are sold it is what the Manager or Head Coach does with them that counts

Lambert did it here chopped changed players and built a team that played to its strengths

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="norfolkngood"]When we went up to the Championship, Lambert was backed to sign a new team, with Ruddy, Tierney, Barnett, Ward, Fox, Surman, Crofts, Jackson, and loans for Lansbury and Pacheco

so Lambert can do a large Turn over of players and get them playing together But Farke and Webber can not ?

the proof is in there that some managers can get a squad together and quickly and still win games because he got them playing to a style that suited those players

We sold players yes to lower wage bill but still had a strong core of players left last season

it is not how many players go or are sold it is what the Manager or Head Coach does with them that counts

Lambert did it here chopped changed players and built a team that played to its strengths[/quote]
It is nowhere near the same, is it? Lambert was the manager in the third tier, so he was adding to his own squad when we got promoted to the Champinship, and without significantly changing the playing style. Webber and Farke have inherited a squad put together by a different regime with a very different playing style.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But that''s a different scenario Norfolkngood.
If we didn''t have such a high wage outlay round our neck then it''s much easier to sign players - you don''t have to rely on big earners leaving first. We don''t have that luxury. 
On top of that, we''re trying to implement a style of play across all the Norwich teams, from the youth upwards. So it''s no longer a ''whats the most effective way for this team i''ve just taken over''. It''s more of a ''what style of play do we see being most beneficial to NCFC in the long term, and which players suit this system and which one''s dont''. 
It''s so different to Lamberts remit it''s incomparable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My point and like every point we can talk and agree and disagree

is that Managers come into clubs Every season rebuild squads but Webber and Farke seem to get this easy ride because they said it will take time where others get 6 /12 months to get results

Farke record here is not very good win to loss Ratio

my question and i know you have a different view is why did he start so well ? instead of getting his message style across and improving we seemed to get worse

like i said not arguing just having a debate with you who have different views

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To me next season will depend on what Farke has learnt from his first season here. Should he continue with tippy tappy sideways football the season will be much the same as this, however if  he choses fast atttacking football things could be OK. Watching the Cup Final I found Shearers comments on Man Utd''s season mirrored our season in as much as he demonstrated that sideways passing slows the game down enables the opposition to get all of their players behind the ball making attacking much harder. He also produced evidence that previously Man U attacked at pace with many of their passes being forward this made it difficult for the opposition to defend against.
I have often felt this season on the few occasions we have attacked at pace we have caused more problems and had the final delivery been better we could have scored a few more. Time will tell.
I also don''t like the way Webber blames all those before him, lets see what he can deliver this will be his third transfer window, as Ed Balls said the jury is still out on this set up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="ridgeman"]
To me next season will depend on what Farke has learnt from his first season here. Should he continue with tippy tappy sideways football the season will be much the same as this, however if  he choses fast atttacking football things could be OK. Watching the Cup Final I found Shearers comments on Man Utd''s season mirrored our season in as much as he demonstrated that sideways passing slows the game down enables the opposition to get all of their players behind the ball making attacking much harder. He also produced evidence that previously Man U attacked at pace with many of their passes being forward this made it difficult for the opposition to defend against.
I have often felt this season on the few occasions we have attacked at pace we have caused more problems and had the final delivery been better we could have scored a few more. Time will tell.
I also don''t like the way Webber blames all those before him, lets see what he can deliver this will be his third transfer window, as Ed Balls said the jury is still out on this set up.
[/quote]
Quite. Not least because it is gleefully seized on by the anti-board brigade here and treated as unanswerable plain truth when it sometimes is only self-serving spin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maddison was sought and signed in front of stiff competition by those before Webber. It was not just Naismith and Jarvis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I''d argue Lambert took over a much tougher situation than Farke.

He took over a squad that had been totally rebuilt, filled with someone else signings at possibly the clubs lowest ever moment. He completely changed the mentality of that squad and the whole club to win the league. All against a backdrop of financial pressure and boardroom volatility.

Farke took over a team who''d underachieved but was the joint highest scorers in the league the season before. Yes we started trying to slash the wage bill but he still started the season with a team containing Klose, Pinto, Tettey, Pritchard, Nelson and Jerome (both whom had excellent scoring records the season before he joined). Add in that Maddison turned out to be one of the best young players in the country and it is hardly an awful hand to be dealt.

Yes we''re making large scale changes behind the scenes, but the idea that this season was always to be expected and that Farke has done well considering everything is nonsense to me. Plenty of other managers have come in and made an impact much quicker than this and plenty have had to do it with significant background turmoil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can''t see that Lambert took over a tougher situation than Farke. He just made the best use of what he had and added to it as necessary. Lucky he had Holt bought by Gunn too. Farke has had to completely change virtually the whole squad - not an easy task in anyone''s book.

Lambert was brilliant for us but very different situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lambert and Neil(at first) managed with what they had and got the best from the team.

Farke was forced to make changes from the start but the aim is a change in attitude which takes longer and does not depend on finance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"He just made the best use of what he had and added to it as necessary."

Yes. Which is exactly what you want a manager to do and what Farke has failed to do.

Lambert was a pragmatist. He came in, assessed where the squads strengths lay and built a system around it. He saw a very talented front 3 (Holt, Hoolahan and Martin), limited but hardowrking midfielders (Smith, Russell, Lappin) and attacking fullbacks and came out with the diamond. I think because of what he achieved that season and the next one people slightly play down the achievement and act as if it was a given when it was actually a huge thing to do.

Farke is an idealist bordering on evangelist. He has one way he wants to play and he''ll change the players to suit that rather than the other way round as Lambert did. We saw last season we actually performed better when we were a bit more direct and had less of the ball but Farke returned to the possession obsession as the season wore on. This isn''t to say this is wrong but eventually if you wed a team to style of play it has to start bearing results otherwise the question isn''t ''when will the players pick the style up'' it is ''is this the wrong style of play?''

Farke has benefitted from fans being surprisingly willing to accept this season as a write off. However if we continue to play poorly next season and he stick to his style without any sign of changing that patience will run out. When you have a ''my way or the highway'' approach to tactics then if they don''t work it is on you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Farke''s and Lambert''s jobs aren''t the same. I don''t understand the comparison.

If Lambert was asked to create a playing style and implement a philosophy throughout the entire club, integrate youth as a way of both making and saving money alongside taking on foreign players which again, saved money for the club whilst being part of fundamental changes in training, ethos and sports science at the club then fair enough.

Lambert''s task was initially, simply a short-term ''get us out of this league''. And he was fantastic at it.

Rightly or wrongly, Webber and the board are looking at a long-term process this time and they see Farke as fitting that bill. I''d imagine a large degree of that is his work with young players alongside having the confidence to stick to a preferred style of play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Exactly Right King

Most Managers will work with what they have access the squad and play to the Strength of the players

He still had good players last season but i do not think he got the best of them and that is what we need with out much money we need a Manager to get 110 % out of each player

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Still don''t get it.   Farke HAD to change things - the squad was way too expensive in wages and had to be culled.  Lambert simply had to get the best out of what was there and tweak it where necessary.   As for Farke being evangelistic, then if so, that is brilliant - someone who has a vision of what he wants and is determined to achieve it, so nothing wrong with that - and he has not failed at it, he is simply working through the squad gradually getting people up to speed with it and those that aren''t a fit, will go.
There are positives - the spirit at the club which seems to be there. It''s the Hughton scenario but with more emphasis on unity and togetherness.  Although I am sure Hughton wanted that too, he had to do it in ridiculously tense and pressurised situation in the PL and in the end it was too much.  Farke has the opportunity to do it in the championship, where the pressure is still there to achieve, but with a bit more time and space to develop things. 
Things will move on next season, a fresh start, players gone and new ones in - Farke able to get more out of the attack, with more mobility and less wasting of possession and less poor decision making from front players, which at times this last season has been pathetic at times - and that is down to the players imo, not the coach. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@Hogesar

In a way you''re right, although not how you think you are.

Farke as a ''head coach'' actually has a far more limited remit than Lambert had. Farke is concerned with the first team training, tactics and style of play. Webber oversees medical, transfers, the academy and all of those areas.

That is why the the long term project here is Webber- Farke is actually far more expendable than any head coach or manager we''ve had before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Farke has spent a lot of time on the academy side of things, and the sports science. Webber of course has been involved but ask anyone at Colney and Farke is probably more involved on a day to day basis on that side of things than Webber.

I agree Farke is expendable long term but - and this is key - Webber is fundamentally a big believer in Farke''s style of play and has reiterated that he see''s it as the way forward on several occasions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="norfolkngood"]12 New players at the club when Lambert took over didnt take him long to get his style across[/quote]
Not so.  It took two seasons for the bulk of the changes to happen. A large part of the season in League 1 was with a core of players which he inherited and changes were quite gradual. Forster was the key signing, Russ Martin important too, but apart from that, most of the players in the team right to the end of the season were ones he inherited.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The academy is run by a Webber guy as is scouting. They all report to Webber. Farke may be involved but the revamp is Webbers project, not Farkes.

Of course Webber is a believer in Farke''s style of play- he wouldn''t have hired him if he wasn''t. But if it doesn''t work they can fire him easily and bring in another coach with a belief in possession football who might be a bit more pragmatic.

In a lot of ways Farke is very lucky to have Webber and the whole transition project to take the heat off his underperformance- without he''d have been binned off a long time ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@LDC

He means 12 new players were signed in the summer even before he joined.

Lambert had to deal with the fact a largely incompetent manager had been given most of the budget for the season to spend and wasted most of it. Tudor Jones, Gill, Wiggins, Whalley, Hughes, Maric etc, all pretty much total wastes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LDC Things will move on next season, a fresh start, players gone and new ones in - Farke able to get more out of the attack, with more mobility and less wasting of possession and less poor decision making from front players, which at times this last season has been pathetic at times - and that is down to the players imo, not the coach.

LDC thats only your opinion which you are entitled to of course

if i had seen a poor start to the season and improvement towards the end i would agree that Farke was getting his message across and looking forward to next season

What i saw was a good start and then little improvement thats why i have my doubts over his style tactics

Take away Maddison who is one of the best players to pull on a NCFC shirt i can not see where this massive improvement is coming from

of course i want you to be right and me to be wrong i want a long term manager / head coach but i want to see progress

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What is clear is that Farke will start the season here and given the task of making the squad gel.

For me this summer is all about how we improve the attacking side of our game - create slightly better chances and improve the finishing across the team (not just the strikers) and we can bounce up the table. We do need to drop goals conceded to around 50 for the season. If that does not happen we will remain a mid table side, or potentially worse.

It is all about the points - if we can get 15-18 points from the first 10 games we will have made real progress. Time will tell.

Add a full back each side, a couple of striking options and still potentially a new CB and we may be that side. They are all big ifs.

Until then it is all pretty dull speculation. Bring on the world cup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="norfolkngood"]LDC Things will move on next season, a fresh start, players gone and new ones in - Farke able to get more out of the attack, with more mobility and less wasting of possession and less poor decision making from front players, which at times this last season has been pathetic at times - and that is down to the players imo, not the coach.

LDC thats only your opinion which you are entitled to of course

if i had seen a poor start to the season and improvement towards the end i would agree that Farke was getting his message across and looking forward to next season

What i saw was a good start and then little improvement thats why i have my doubts over his style tactics

Take away Maddison who is one of the best players to pull on a NCFC shirt i can not see where this massive improvement is coming from

of course i want you to be right and me to be wrong i want a long term manager / head coach but i want to see progress[/quote]
The only real benchmark for progress is results and so I suppose in that sense, you are right, but in other ways progress is a difficut thing to quantify in football.  You can have progress from individuals - Vrancic for one, or apparent non-progress from individuals like imo Murphy and Oiveira.  You have injuries to individuals which holds things up - like the one to Trybull.  You have the experimentation with formations like the occasional attacking line ups away from home (which largely did not work).  You have individual form to consider and new players acclimatising. You also have to take into account the opposition teams who present different problems and issues that get in the way of progress. 
Overall, I would agree there has been stuff to be not happy about, but there have been things to appreciate in terms of progress as well.  The assimilation of Trybull, Vrancic, Zimmermann, Hanley, Lewis and the loan of Reed - to the extent we would like him back next season.  The goals and play of Maddison - and although he may well be sold, he has set a benchmark for players in his position - and that is good. McLean will know all about Maddison form his time at Aberdeen - and Vrancic will imo step up to the plate for free kicks - we haven''t seen the best of his ability there, partly because Maddison was the first choice there.  Hernandez has shown promise and while Srbeny hasn''t flourished yet, I wouldn''t write him off - he will have a pre-season to get up to speed. 
We will undoubtedly see progress next season, new players having had a season under their belt, new players to come in, a settling down of the style and more incisive forward moves with McLean and Vrancic pulling the strings and better movement up front with Hernandez and maybe new strikers. Whether we will be better or worse in terms of results is the unknown of course, but progress will be there - and although it may not have been that obvious last season, the groundwork has been done in a huge season of change.
So progress?  Not as much as we would have liked I suppose, but even with a positive outlook, not many of us would have put us in the top six last season.  It was there to be aimed at and was a possibility, but would have been a huge achievement. Next season will need to see us with a meaningful challenge for the top six - and achieving top six would represent that elusive progress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Let''s simplify things.

1. Changes, including some culling were necessary because of the impending loss of Premier League income.

2. The club decided upon the "Yellow Revolution" and in effect went the whole hog with these changes.

3. We all have to accept that time would be needed for these changes to take effect.

4. For many reasons, and despite this, last season was a let down and aspects of it have caused concern about both the competence of the manager and the long-term prospects of the new approach.

5. Irrespective of this, financial restraint has become a necessity, and although the re-invigorated approach to our youth system could alleviate this to some extent it probably won''t be enough as a doctrine of self-sufficiency in today''s world of football is League 1 at best. Again time will be needed for the youth programme to fructify, even though the portends seem good.

6. With an acceptance that success will not come overnight and taking into account the investment in staff and players that has been made in order to furnish the new model NCFC we have no choice but to linger a while and effectively sit on the fence with regards to our support or otherwise of the board, Webber and Daniel Farke. A dose of patience may be needed, and even a couple of diazepam capsules.

7. To backtrack on things now would be far too costly and cause far too much upheaval leading to, imo, further decline as a certainty. We are too committed.

8. With all this in mind, my personal preference would see Daniel Farke given at least ten games to improve upon his often curious tactical and indeed management techniques that were too much in evident last season.

9. The ''new way'' would need at least the whole season before questions need be asked if we seem to be remaining in a state of status quo or worse We might just have the wrong manager after all.

10. If it comes to a stage where our decline seems terminal then a ''bloody revolution'' such as never seen before in the corridors of Carrow Road would be the right of the long suffering fandome to instigate ... one way or another.

Some on here are adamant that all the above is caused by our relatively poor, yet intrepid ownership who seem to have attached themselves to the club with superglue. They will have to accept things as they are for the time being, TINA, though knowing that they may have their day..

That''s my bullshine finished for the day, but nothing better to do with all the rain we''re getting down south and my clubhouse seling good bitter beer.

In the meantime I prefer to remain somewhat optimistic as I believe that things could go either way, with indications of a successful season reliant upon a decent new striker or two, the youth such as Lewis, Godfrey, Thompson and Cantwell continuing to progress, the ''foreign'' contingent be totally acclimatised at last and players like McClean and that elusive new striker living up to expectations.

Farke will also need to improve and indications of failure will be evident after a ten games if not fewer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×