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Derby Canary

Next Season

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Good point Derby, about naivety of our board...recruitment wasn''t good...although some players haven''t been bad signings imo...Zimmermann for example.

I am rather pessimistic too with regards to next season , after witnessing the no shows that followed a rare good performance.

Mid table mediocrity looms imo , we don''t have the money to really compete anymore...nor the management...

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I was impressed that we didn''t have a relegation fight last season considering the massive overhaul of staff and players. Farke can now have a preseason not dominated by transition. I am neither optimistic nor pessimistic, rather that it will be a calmer build up to next season. This will hopefully give us a stronger start.

We have Cantwell at al returning like new signings and hopefully some striking improvements on the way.

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I just don''t get all this total and continual negativity as to me it undermines the whole reasons for following a football club in the first place; those of interest and enjoyment.

Interest is stifled by the narrow mindedness involved and it can''t be much fun either.

Also, there is too much a sense of entitlement involved with regards the club and whereas a little of this is to be expected overmuch is just naivety.

For sure, the club''s rapid downward spiral is something to be concerned about, and we are all entitled to a grumble, but such fixations with doom and gloom achieve nothing.

The club is over the hump as far as the so-called "Yellow Revolution" goes and the excuse of needing to adapt has worn thin. It''s nitty gritty time.

Next season could go either way, imo, and I believe that to be a factual assessment, especially when pitching the superb performances against Arsenal and Chelsea against the abysmal non-show against Sheffield Wednesday on the last day.

As a team we are not all bad, but have yet to be that good on a consistent basis.

My default mode remains hopeful in that I am prepared to persevere with my glass half full contentment until such a time next season, when and if, this stance might seem unrealistic.

If we fail again then we can all moan on mass and with full justification. We can demand change.

I cannot for the life of me see the joy in continued vitriol aimed at one and all though until the plot has fully unfolded. It''s sure a case of jumping the gun.

The history of NCFC would seem to suggest that we support a club which is entitled to be competitive in the second tier of English football, with the occasional foray into the first.

That major mistakes have been made in the past which have wasted the opportunities provided by these forays is undeniable, but dwelling upon these achieves nothing for the psyche.

Let''s sit on the fence and see what happens in the coming months before deciding which way to jump.

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i am going on the facts that Farke has Managed

52 won 18 drew 17 lost 17

we had a PL quality player in Maddison and some very good players still here Reed Pinto Hanley Lewis Klose Nelson Murphy Tettey and Gunn

Did Farke get the best out of those players ?

10 players there that should if on form walk into most championship teams two international CB yet defence is creaking

international up front who scored the season before but now can more likely to hit the big screen in corner than net

i would say that with the core of players we had Farke did not show me anything to show me with a even weaker team next season he would bring success

A good Manager / head coach gets more out of players

how did Big Mick get that team of dross / free players to finish above us if Farke is so good ??

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]
I just don''t get all this total and continual negativity as to me it undermines the whole reasons for following a football club in the first place; those of interest and enjoyment.

Interest is stifled by the narrow mindedness involved and it can''t be much fun either.

Also, there is too much a sense of entitlement involved with regards the club and whereas a little of this is to be expected overmuch is just naivety.

For sure, the club''s rapid downward spiral is something to be concerned about, and we are all entitled to a grumble, but such fixations with doom and gloom achieve nothing.

The club is over the hump as far as the so-called "Yellow Revolution" goes and the excuse of needing to adapt has worn thin. It''s nitty gritty time.

Next season could go either way, imo, and I believe that to be a factual assessment, especially when pitching the superb performances against Arsenal and Chelsea against the abysmal non-show against Sheffield Wednesday on the last day.

As a team we are not all bad, but have yet to be that good on a consistent basis.

My default mode remains hopeful in that I am prepared to persevere with my glass half full contentment until such a time next season, when and if, this stance might seem unrealistic.

If we fail again then we can all moan on mass and with full justification. We can demand change.

I cannot for the life of me see the joy in continued vitriol aimed at one and all though until the plot has fully unfolded. It''s sure a case of jumping the gun.

The history of NCFC would seem to suggest that we support a club which is entitled to be competitive in the second tier of English football, with the occasional foray into the first.

That major mistakes have been made in the past which have wasted the opportunities provided by these forays is undeniable,
but dwelling upon these achieves nothing for the psyche.

Let''s sit on the fence and see what happens in the coming months before deciding which way to jump.[/quote]
I would deny that, Broadstairs. I don''t believe that over, say, the last 20 years that there have been abnormally bad decisions that have cost us our place in the Premier League.Not least because you''re right that if we have a natural position it is of a club in the second tier that can occasionally spend time in the top tier. But to stay there, because of our lack of money, requires perfect decision-making, and luck. Yes, there have been decisions that - often in hindsight - have turned out to be wrong. But not a string of major bad decisons.
In our position it only needs one mistake, one lapse from perfection, to send us down. And you only have to look at this season in the Premier League to see that doesn''t not just apply to us. All those non-promoted clubs in danger of relegation had been held up as models of sensible management - as how clubs could surive and even prosper without spending silly money (actually rather ignoring the fact that their owners - compared to ours - were absurdly rich and could potentially bail them out of trouble). And three of them have come down, while Southampton, with all their advantages, survived on goal difference. A total of 25 consecutive seasons in in the PL for the three. And just the seven managers between them, with none of the changes saving them from the drop.

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Interesting to see the opening positions taken by the Bookies - they seem to see us around 6th or 7th whereas our neighbours are seen at the other end of the table -

https://www.oddschecker.com/football/english/championship/next-season-relegation

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"But to stay there, because of our lack of money, requires perfect decision-making, and luck."

Unfortunately that now appears to be the case for making a promotion challenge too.

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@PC.

Fair enough, but you could also cite the fact that our failure to remain at the top table for any consistent period was a result of a series of bad decisions in as much as the end failed to justify the means.

Of course it would be easy to be nit pickery and list them, from the signings of RVW through to those of Naismith and Jarvis and onto to the failure to strengthen Neil''s defence when it was obvious to all that this was needed.

It depends where the buck lies but if it''s at the top then the timing of managerial changes have hardly been spot on and the indecisiveness in this respect was to prove costly.

As I say, nit pickery and it''s easy to be wise after the event but the alternative is just to accept such relegations as "our lot" I suppose.

We are football supporters though so we need to have somewhere to lay blame.

I blame Simon Hooper, now THAT was a bad decision.

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"The history of NCFC would seem to suggest that we support a club which is entitled to be competitive in the second tier of English football, with the occasional foray into the first"

Not for me.... I prefer to look at our potential & believe we could be an established premier league club.

I just do no get the negative small mindedness of some supporters but that is their right.

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[quote user="Mike "]"The history of NCFC would seem to suggest that we support a club which is entitled to be competitive in the second tier of English football, with the occasional foray into the first"

Not for me.... I prefer to look at our potential & believe we could be an established premier league club.

I just do no get the negative small mindedness of some supporters but that is their right.[/quote]
I think you get confused between expectation and ambition.

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[quote user="Jack Flash"]Interesting to see the opening positions taken by the Bookies - they seem to see us around 6th or 7th whereas our neighbours are seen at the other end of the table -

https://www.oddschecker.com/football/english/championship/next-season-relegation[/quote]
We are around 7/1 to win promotion and at that price I don''t think there will be queue of people rushing to back us.
The 3 teams that got relegated from the PL are not all that great and in all honesty I don''t see any of them as being nailed on for automatic promotion and there''s not a lot to choose between the clubs remaining in the Champs from last season so it looks pretty wide open.
All in all it''ll be a weaker than average Championship and it''s there for the taking with the right players and the right attitude and you couldn''t rule out many Clubs who could have a chance.
But unless something drastic changes in terms of recruitment, intent and tactics I can''t see us being involved in any promotion bid.

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[quote user="Making Plans"]
[quote user="Jack Flash"]Interesting to see the opening positions taken by the Bookies - they seem to see us around 6th or 7th whereas our neighbours are seen at the other end of the table -

https://www.oddschecker.com/football/english/championship/next-season-relegation[/quote]
We are around 7/1 to win promotion and at that price I don''t think there will be queue of people rushing to back us.
The 3 teams that got relegated from the PL are not all that great and in all honesty I don''t see any of them as being nailed on for automatic promotion and there''s not a lot to choose between the clubs remaining in the Champs from last season so it looks pretty wide open.
All in all it''ll be a weaker than average Championship and it''s there for the taking with the right players and the right attitude and you couldn''t rule out many Clubs who could have a chance.
But unless something drastic changes in terms of recruitment, intent and tactics I can''t see us being involved in any promotion bid.
[/quote]
Weaker than the three that came down last time, one of which got relegated straight down to League One, with neither of the other two going back up? We have lost an outstanding team in Wolves, just as we did Newcastle Utd last time. I don''t know much at all about League One but I suspect the three coming up (all of whom know the Championship from two seasons ago) are at least on a par with the three the season before. And we have hardly lost tough teams in Barnsley and Burton Albion.
Added to which we have several clubs, such as Sheffield Wednesday, Derby County, Nottingham Forest,, Aston Villa, Middlesbrough, Leeds and QPR all of which are rich and ambitious  to get back to the PL and in some cases need to, to avoid financial serious financial trouble, and may well risk breaking FFP to do that.
All in all it doesn''t look to me like a weaker than average Championship, but then I don''t want to paint it as such so that if we don''t go up I can say what an extra  disgrace that is, and if we - annoyingly - do get promoted I can claim it was only because the division was so weak.

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@Purple

I agree, I think it looks stronger than last season. None of the three relegated sides have the problems Hull and Sunderland had (although I didn''t expect them to be that bad) and Blackburn and Wigan should offer more than Burton.

I would argue that the two best footballing teams have gone up now though- not sure who will fill their boots.

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[quote user="king canary"]@Purple

I agree, I think it looks stronger than last season. None of the three relegated sides have the problems Hull and Sunderland had (although I didn''t expect them to be that bad) and Blackburn and Wigan should offer more than Burton.

I would argue that the two best footballing teams have gone up now though- not sure who will fill their boots.[/quote]
Quite. On paper it certainly doesn''t look any weaker, and if anything stronger. But we shall see. The three relegated from the PL will all have new managers (once Swansea have made a choice) but I would be surprised if any of them go down again.

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I''d argue Swansea have the weakest squad (despite finishing 18th) but Stoke and West Brom have a sold enough core that they can bounce back.

I''d expect Boro to get better next season, Villa will have some tough choices to make but have a very strong squad for this level.

I suppose the big question will be can those who overachieved last season (Preston, Millwall, Brentford, Sheffield United) kick on or will they fall back?

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There are so many clubs in the championship with stinking rich owners that we simply can''t compete

Ipswich are about to appoint a talented and successful manager and we are stuck with Farke

Can it get anymore depressing?

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[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="Mike "]"The history of NCFC would seem to suggest that we support a club which is entitled to be competitive in the second tier of English football, with the occasional foray into the first"

Not for me.... I prefer to look at our potential & believe we could be an established premier league club.

I just do no get the negative small mindedness of some supporters but that is their right.[/quote]
I think you get confused between expectation and ambition.
[/quote]

If you accept second best you get second best, my ambition and expectation are irrelevant when this boards ambition and expectation is so low.

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So if you accept second best and get second best.

And our board have such little ambition.

How have we managed to end up in the prem for those seasons? And stay up?

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Where did we finish last year? What sort of budget do we have for next year? Is it comparable with clubs of our size and tradition? Are we looking to keep our best player (s)?

Next year will see if this "revolution" has been well thought of or has proven to be yet another mismanagement ...

I genuinely hope you are right but I would say given the investment people have put into other clubs we will struggle badly next year.

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"I prefer to look at our potential & believe we could be an established premier league club."

A lot of clubs have potential but only about six of them are established Premier League clubs as such and their dominance is rarely threatened (Leicester''s success will unlikely be repeated for some considerable time,) whilst the rest look downwards rather than upwards at the beginning of each season.

There is no disgrace in aspiring to join that semi-elite ban, although I did think that the German striker we have just missed out on bore more than a passing resemblance to Jamie Vardy.

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]@PC.

Fair enough, but you could also cite the fact that our failure to remain at the top table for any consistent period was a result of a series of bad decisions in as much as the end failed to justify the means.

Of course it would be easy to be nit pickery and list them, from the signings of RVW through to those of Naismith and Jarvis and onto to the failure to strengthen Neil''s defence when it was obvious to all that this was needed.

It depends where the buck lies but if it''s at the top then the timing of managerial changes have hardly been spot on and the indecisiveness in this respect was to prove costly.

As I say, nit pickery and it''s easy to be wise after the event but the alternative is just to accept such relegations as "our lot" I suppose.

We are football supporters though so we need to have somewhere to lay blame.

I blame Simon Hooper, now THAT was a bad decision.[/quote]
Broadstairs, you''ve named two interesting examples of how things can go wrong, despite the best intentions, and how a club like ours is at the mercy of even one mistake, while richer clubs can buy their way out of trouble.What gets forgotten about that van Wolfswinkel summer is that we also wanted to sign Toivonen. He turned us down and we ended up with Elmander, who had been a good player but by then was definitely past his best. Toivonen, by contrast, is still playing for Sweden and scoring some goals. I have always thought that if we''d got Toivonen, who could play as an attacking midfielder or up front, that would have made up for the uselessness of van Wolfswinkel, and we would have survived.As to Neil not strengthening the defence that summer, that was due to the club indulging in a high-risk strategy of going for a really top-class player - probably Koulibaly from Napoli. Everything was agreed, including the fee and personal terms, and at the last moment, with no time for us to implement a Plan B, Napoli (if it was them) pulled the plug on the deal because they couldn''t get a replacement. Something that was eminently predictable.Obviously I don''t know who argued for what, but normally in that kind of case it would have been McNally, as the nearest we had then to a football director, to recommend or not recommend the deal to the board, given that such an eventuality was possible.
So you have one bad transfer decision by Hughton (I assume), compounded by another player rejecting us, and what may (only may) have been overly ambitious advice to the board by talented chief executive.

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Next season will be significant in so many ways. If we have a poor one we will no doubt be on the managerial merry go round again. I suspect that expectations are not high, BUT this club often does well when few expect and does poorly when we should do better. For what its worth i think we will have a better season and may just scrape a play off space

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The issue for me is that we are now committed to a specific strategy which frankly precludes so many of the potential Managers that might be there in the future. We cannot panic after 10 matches and change unless we change the entire structure again. That seems totally unrealistic. I''m frankly OK with giving it another full season but then I''ve been round the block so many times over 60 odd years another turn or two is ever likely.

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Guest
I know some youngsters have been let go but have we any 1st team squad members out of contract?

There always used to be a retained list and those who we would listen to offers for.

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A fair few posters talk about our club in the context of how we could not only get promoted but also become an established prem club. In reality, it will become increasingly harder each season to get into the Prem while  talk of becoming established there is absurd and nonsensical. Apart from a handful of usual suspects at the top, no other clubs in the Prem are established, Stoke made a good bash at trying, but they to have succumbed, so to think that our club could stay even 3 to 5 seasons in the Prem, never mind 10, is a pipedream.
So to the coming season, with absolutely no idea what to expect, least of all as its still only May and much activity could and likely will happen in the intervening time. I dont go along with the "calmer quieter, less transitioning" period than last years summer close season, im of the opinion that nearly as much still needs a changing as we had 12 months ago. So  a busy time for Webber and Farke for me, and also, and equally important for Neil Adams, the recent article on him highlighting how important his role is these days. I would argue his in / out loans have become more important to the club than the the time he roled as City  boss.
For me, an interesting time still ahead, as much off the pitch as on it.

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My dislike is from day one Webber has made excuses given himself and Farke time saying it will take 4 transfer windows etc

He has blamed everyone from the past and the way the money was used also

Now this transition period has to stop and we need Results from Webber and co

When Lambert took over in LG1 he had to hit the ground running results from day one even though the club had new players after the Roeder loans and Gunn

when Big sam took over at Everton there was no this will take me a long time he had to get results and fast

Webber and Farke have to get results we have heard all the excuses no time for Action

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[quote user="Jack Flash"]The issue for me is that we are now committed to a specific strategy which frankly precludes so many of the potential Managers that might be there in the future. We cannot panic after 10 matches and change unless we change the entire structure again. That seems totally unrealistic. I''m frankly OK with giving it another full season but then I''ve been round the block so many times over 60 odd years another turn or two is ever likely.[/quote]
Probably true, but it also brings into play talented head coaches who might not be well-versed in the more managerial side of the job, such as buying and selling players, but don''t have to be, because Webber can do that.

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This is the season where people like Webber will earn their money.

Let’s be honest, we no longer have the financial ability to keep up with a lot of the teams in the Championship, I was reading the other day that the guy who owns Rotherham has suggested he’s going to give £35m if they got promoted, we don’t have that to use.

The Maddison money needs to be reinvested to strengthen the team and hope we have a little luck through the season to get us in to a position of top 6, once you get to play offs anyone has a chance but even getting there is going to be tough.

To many more years of languishing in the Champs will put us where that lot down the road are, just happy to survive.

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