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TIL 1010

Bournemouth & Watford ' Allegedly ' Sniffing Around Jamal Lewis.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]
[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="FenwayFrank"]“So many of us see clubs like Leicester, Southampton, Wolves etc thriving or at the very least competing whilst we get weaker and weaker.”

It’s all cyclical Mike, it’s not that long ago two of those were in league one and there’s nothing to prove they will be in the prem in a couple of years time[/quote]

This shows how radio rental this comparison thing is. All those clubs were in League One. Southampton actually for longer than us. And yet we are judged on that one season we were there. I''m now convinced much of this anti Smith & Jones stuff is just personal hatred. And what evidence is there that the people responsible for the atmosphere in previous seasons have stopped going?[/quote]
As I posted a while back:

"You could make up a decent top flight out of clubs that have in

recent decades spent in the third tier: Villa, Man City, Stoke, Fulham,

Blackpool, Bolton, Blackburn, WBA, Birmingham, Wolves, QPR, Forest,

Leeds, Cardiff, Leicester, Burnley, Derby, Middlesbrough, Portsmouth,

Sheffield Utd, Southampton, Charlton, Sheffield Wednesday and Preston.

And – finally - us." And now, since then, Sunderland.
A small proportion of fans on the internet agreeing with each other that Smith and Jones are almost uniquely bad owners with an almost unbroken catalogue of mistakes, saved only by the occasional bit of undeserved luck, does not make it true. Viewed overall, many of those clubs on that list would kill for the last two decades Norwich City have had.
[/quote]
Glad my list sparked some spirited discussion. A few points. Many fans refer to our one (note the "one") season in the third tier as if it was some unique catastrophe no other club of our size (or above) has ever suffered. The list disproves that notion. Secondly, what those fans complain about there is entirely to do with our league status, and nothing to do with cups. And as JF says, the mark of how a club is doing is league status:"The only thing that matters is the club playing it’s football at the highest standard possible."By definition that means which division. On that basis, there are nine clubs, which counts as many, that would greatly prefer our last 21 season to theirs:Sheffield United, Sheffield Wednesday, Nottingham Forest, Cardiff City, Blackpool, Burnley, QPR, Derby County and Preston North End.Of others, Charlton have had more three more seasons in the Premier League but four more below the second tier, which is roughly equal, but recent seasons tip the balance very much our way. Portsmouth have had two more in the PL but five more below the second tier, and have had enormous financial problems, so that again recent history is on our side. Our record against that of Wolves is slightly (better (one more season in the PL.
Of those that have plainly better records some, such as Aston Villa, Man City and Leeds, are giants of the English game, while others, such as Southampton, Leicester City, West Brom, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Stoke and Birmingham City are all generally speaking (I know this is not an exact science ) bigger clubs than Norwich City.

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Surely if you make the statement over two decades then the entire two decades is just as relevant as recent history? Your argument is completely flawed. Had you have said many of those clubs would kill for the last decade we’ve had you would have been correct. I could hardly see Leeds fans being happy to swap playing Champions League football for what we’ve done, honestly could you? Also 9 clubs doesn’t count as many as it’s less than half the clubs on that list

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The snide comments about the board started on this thread in relation to two premier league clubs being interested in one of our young players that come through the academy. The fact that one of our own in half a season has been identified by premier league clubs (potentially) suggests we''re doing something right....yet all the usual lot on here can do is, oddly, assume that if two clubs are interested we are selling him and it''s because our board are...greedy? I''m not really sure. We''d only sell if Webber and Stone thought it was in the best interests of the club. It wouldn''t even be a Delia decision. It''s all so odd.

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[quote user="FenwayFrank"]It’s not just us

https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/433980/losing-two-promising-youngsters/#4[/quote]
But at least they''ve actually sold the player(s). The criticism on this thread has started before any kind of suggestion that we''re remotely interested in selling!

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[quote user="JF"]Surely if you make the statement over two decades then the entire two decades is just as relevant as recent history? Your argument is completely flawed. Had you have said many of those clubs would kill for the last decade we’ve had you would have been correct. I could hardly see Leeds fans being happy to swap playing Champions League football for what we’ve done, honestly could you? Also 9 clubs doesn’t count as many as it’s less than half the clubs on that list[/quote]
There is no flaw. I did base my ratings on the last 21 seasons. So I did not mention Leeds at all, let alone in terms of recent history. If you noticed I rated Leeds higher than us, even though recent history favours us.I also, if you noticed, rated. Bolton and Blackburn higher than us, even though recent history tends towards us. I only mentioned two clubs - Charlton and Portsmouth - with roughly equal record where it is valid to look at recent history, which tips the balance our way. And that is without taking into account the factor of stability, where Portsmouth and Charlton have been basket cases for several years now.

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[quote user="hogesar"]The snide comments about the board started on this thread in relation to two premier league clubs being interested in one of our young players that come through the academy. The fact that one of our own in half a season has been identified by premier league clubs (potentially) suggests we''re doing something right....yet all the usual lot on here can do is, oddly, assume that if two clubs are interested we are selling him and it''s because our board are...greedy? I''m not really sure. We''d only sell if Webber and Stone thought it was in the best interests of the club. It wouldn''t even be a Delia decision. It''s all so odd.[/quote]
[Y] It''s like some people are addicted to talking the club down regardless - almost as if they want or need to see the club and/or it''s owners in a bad light for whatever reason and that it can never do anything right.   Maybe it''s healthy to be never trusting, never believing, never thinking the club could be doing something right....but I doubt it.   Even if we get promotion next season and do a Leicester the following season, those people would probably still want Delia and co out.  

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]
[quote user="JF"]Surely if you make the statement over two decades then the entire two decades is just as relevant as recent history? Your argument is completely flawed. Had you have said many of those clubs would kill for the last decade we’ve had you would have been correct. I could hardly see Leeds fans being happy to swap playing Champions League football for what we’ve done, honestly could you? Also 9 clubs doesn’t count as many as it’s less than half the clubs on that list[/quote]
There is no flaw. I did base my ratings on the last 21 seasons. So I did not mention Leeds at all, let alone in terms of recent history. If you noticed I rated Leeds higher than us, even though recent history favours us.I also, if you noticed, rated. Bolton and Blackburn higher than us, even though recent history tends towards us. I only mentioned two clubs - Charlton and Portsmouth - with roughly equal record where it is valid to look at recent history, which tips the balance our way. And that is without taking into account the factor of stability, where Portsmouth and Charlton have been basket cases for several years now.
[/quote]
[Y][Y]

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The obsession with the owners and defending them at all costs is quite frankly, bizarre.

As others have said, if the owners were willing to loan the club money, it would make it easier to hold onto our best players.

Although 10 minion would be a ridiculously good price for Lewis, any club with an ambition to finish in the top six should be holding onto their best young talent. Very demoralising to know that any good young player will be sold to keep the club going - and yes I know we’ve done it before.

Support Norwich City, not the owners.

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@Hogesar

I get what you''re saying- this is a bit of paper talk and it could very well lead to nothing.

I guess for me I just look at the sales of the last 12 months and don''t see much reason to give this board the benefit of the doubt that they wouldn''t sell if it came to it.

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[quote user="king canary"]@Hogesar

I get what you''re saying- this is a bit of paper talk and it could very well lead to nothing.

I guess for me I just look at the sales of the last 12 months and don''t see much reason to give this board the benefit of the doubt that they wouldn''t sell if it came to it.[/quote]
I think for £10 million I would personally sell, if it was my decision but I understand the perhaps ''negative'' view of it seeing as we''ve sold a lot of good players over the past year. 
The only issue I have is, and I quote you "don''t see much reason to give this board the benefit of the doubt".
The problem is with quite a few posters on here that = Delia.
The reality is the decision to sell is very, very unlikely to be her''s. There may be something in place where she makes the final decision (even that sounds unlikely) but even so it will be based on the recommendation of Stone / Webber. Yet Delia would get the abuse on this forum, for the most part.

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Probably because Hogesar the buck so to speak stops at the top. How many times in how many walks of life have Govt ministers or CEO''s been forced out,resigned or however you want to put it as a result of decisions made by persons beneath them but because it happened on their watch they took the hit.
Delia is no different as Webber, Farke or whoever are employees of a company of which she is for all intents and purposes the person at the top.

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If folk think this is bad......Just wait until young NepoTominism gleefully unstraps himself from his erection seat, removes his purple helmet and climbs off the back of his Shiny Purple Unicorn (that farts glittering rainbows).....Is then anointed, (with extra virgin olive oil) and eventually sits on the throne of the holy ''Kingdom of Carra'' after the sad abdication, of Aunty......

Then, things will get very interesting......Oh yeah......

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Of course the decision to sell him isn''t hers and I agree too many people want to single her out.

However as I said to Nutty in this thread, it is the decisions and strategy decided on by our majority owners that have led to the position where we''re having to sell so many of our good youngsters.

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]Although 10 million would be a ridiculously good price for Lewis, any club with an ambition to finish in the top six should be holding onto their best young talent. Very demoralising to know that any good young player will be sold to keep the club going - and yes I know we’ve done it before.

Support Norwich City, not the owners.[/quote]But that''s purely an assumption about what the money might be used for Hoola.
If we decided to sell purely to give us a warchest of cash to be used to cover future shortfalls or similar, then far more fans would be angry at the choice - and with fair reason considering what we''ve already received in transfer fees etc, however if the money was to be used to buy the high quality (and likely high priced) striker that we desperately need, then it makes a hell of a lot more sense and is likely to be far more beneficial to the club over the next season or two than a good young left back is IMHO.
If it was a simple choice between Lewis and say Marriott + McNulty (or maybe Eisa), then which do you think is better for the team and the club? The promising young left back OR the two top scorers from League 1 and League 2 (still only aged 23 and 25) to bolster our poorly performing frontline???

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So if we sign a player that everyone agrees is a good player will she get the credit ? As others have said, when it’s good it’s someone else’s decision, when it’s bad it’s Delia.

Don’t get me wrong, I actually think she should have stepped down when we were relegated, but until there is a genuinely better viable option we’re stuck with her.

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[quote user="king canary"]Of course the decision to sell him isn''t hers and I agree too many people want to single her out.

However as I said to Nutty in this thread, it is the decisions and strategy decided on by our majority owners that have led to the position where we''re having to sell so many of our good youngsters.[/quote]A) This is precisely the position pretty much every other club at our level are in, if good premiership interest is there, the player will almost certainly be sold, it really is that simple.
B) We can''t change the mistakes of the past, we can only support what is happening now, so whilst as a discussion point it''s fine to point out previous errors (especially with the benefit of hindsight), it serves no useful purpose in regards to where we are now, nor will it in any way change the current situation whatsoever.
C) Realistically we only HAD to sell Maddison (and there was no way we were keeping him anyway, even if we didn''t have the shortfall to cover), we CHOSE to sell Murphy because we felt the price was too good to refuse (I agree), we CHOSE to sell Watkins for a clear profit after a poor season (I again agree), and we can CHOOSE to sell Lewis at the suggested price for the same reason as not just Josh Murphy, but his brother before him and again I''d totally see the logic - assuming the money was going towards a new striker etc.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]
Probably because Hogesar the buck so to speak stops at the top. How many times in how many walks of life have Govt ministers or CEO''s been forced out,resigned or however you want to put it as a result of decisions made by persons beneath them but because it happened on their watch they took the hit.
Delia is no different as Webber, Farke or whoever are employees of a company of which she is for all intents and purposes the person at the top.
[/quote]
Of course. I have employee''s who if they mess up, it''s my fault if I haven''t trained them right. If it turns out they have, then the ''buck'' doesn''t rest with me so much as I should find a replacement.
Your point is irrelevant in the day-to-day decision making. Webber says "sell him" and you say "DELIA OUT". Do you not realise that''s a little naive?

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]The obsession with the owners and defending them at all costs is quite frankly, bizarre.

As others have said, if the owners were willing to loan the club money, it would make it easier to hold onto our best players. [/quote]
No one I have seen is defending them at all costs - but there are some who won''t have a single good word said about them.  Most of us accept they have made mistakes - but most of us can give them crdit when credit is due.  

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If the buck stops at the top over this issue then it does over every issue. If the buck stops at the top this season then it does every season. Our club has pretty much performed to it''s potential over Smith & Jones stewardship. Yes there''s some clubs done better but there''s also some done worse. The criticism of the owners has in the main been about what those critics believe will happen rather than what has happened. Which is why those critics cling so dearly to that one season in League One. When it doesn''t turn out as they expect those critics credit luck or the people the owners employ.

As I said earlier in the thread. Smith & Jones have steered the club safely through the most difficult years the English football league system has ever known.

Now this is my opinion. It''s as valid as anyone else''s. If it generates a response please let it be relevant to my opinion and not about sticks and binners...

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There is no flaw. I did base my ratings on the last 21 seasons. So I did not mention Leeds at all, let alone in terms of recent history. If you noticed I rated Leeds higher than us, even though recent history favours us.

I also, if you noticed, rated. Bolton and Blackburn higher than us, even though recent history tends towards us. I only mentioned two clubs - Charlton and Portsmouth - with roughly equal record where it is valid to look at recent history, which tips the balance our way. And that is without taking into account the factor of stability, where Portsmouth and Charlton have been basket cases for several years now.

I must have missed our day out at Wembley when we lifted the financial stability cup...

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Of course there''s more responsibilities that come with being owner/custodians of our football club. It''s not just success on the pitch is it? The balance sheet is important as is the clubs standing in the community.

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