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king canary

Home grown rules/man management

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Yes I know we''ve beaten this one to death but I was talking about it on twitter yesterday and wonder if we haven''t been looking at this wrong way.

Up until recently the concern has been ''do we have enough good players to fill the quota'' when actually the challenge may be more about how Farke manages those who have to miss out due to nationality.

Looking at our first team squad (I''m including youngsters listed in the first team squad on the club website) right now we have...

Home Grown

Matthews

Husband

Martin

Hanley

Lewis

Raggett

Marshall

Jarvis

Godfrey

Phillips

Thompson

Cantwell

Morris

So 13 home grown players- more than enough to fill the 8 person quota. However we also have...

Non home-grown

McGovern

Pinto

Zimmerman

Klose

Naismith

Vrancic

Leitner

McLean

Wildschut

Steipermann

Trybull

Tettey

Hernandez

Buendia

Nelson

Pukki

Srebeny

17 who fall outside of the quota.

So in any match day squad we need at least 8 from the first list and a maximum of 10 from the second. This means at least 7 of those players are missing out from the matchday squad.

Of major concern is the fact all of our strikers who are currently fit are non home grown so to have one striker on the pitch and one on the bench means two of those 10 spaces are gone and right now our obvious backup keeper is also non home grown thus taking up another space.

So an example XI might be...

Matthews

Pinto

Hanley

Zimmerman

Klose

Lewis

Vrancic

Tettey

Leitner

Buendia

Pukki

Only three of those starters are home grown meaning we need 5 on the bench. So to have a backup keeper and striker on the bench means something like...

McGovern

Marshall

Raggett

Godfrey

Husband

Cantwell

Nelson/Srebeny

So McLean, Hernandez, Trybull and Steipermann all miss out on the 18.

Farke is going to have a challenge on his hands keeping his players happy I feel.

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Interesting take king. I was pondering the same thing but you’ve done all the thinking for me. Looking at both of your lists, you can probably disregard Martin, Jarvis, Phillips, Thompson, Cantwell and Morris from the homegrown as well Naismith and Wildschut from the second. Neil Adams will be looking after most of them. I still think pinto & Oliveira might move on to pastures new and we’ll take a punt on a couple of young English loans from the premiership. Doesn’t change the basic premise of your post though.

Are we looking at three at the back primarily this year? Do we still need a defensive minded right back? Another forward/striker? Are we going with Matthews? Have we enough cover across the back line when injuries take their toll, which didn’t really happen last season in the defensive area? I also think McLean came to start. Lots to consider & ponder but there’s a few weeks to go yet.

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There is just no real way of putting together an 18 that doesn''t leave two or three good players out. Particularly in the midfield where we have Leitner, Vrancic, Trybull, Tettey, McLean, Buendia and Hernandez who all aren''t home grown but all would be here to start games. If we included all of them in the 18 you''ve then only got three spaces left.

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When Webber first came he spoke of having 16-18 experienced professionals in a squad, in order to allow gaps for youth development, and to avoid having professionals who never made the match day squad.
So my "core" group of 17 has Matthews, Lewis, Hanley, Klose, Zimmerman, Husband, Tettey, Trybull, McClean, Vrancic, Leitner, Steipermann, Marshall, Hernandez, Buendia, Pukki and Srbeny. (Which only has 5 homegrowns and I''m missing a right back).
I''m assuming Naismith, Jarvis, McGovern, Wildschut and Martin won''t play for the club again.
I think the club would like Pinto and Oliviera to leave.
I reckon we still need a goalkeeper (bound to be a British loan to increase the homegrown count), a right back, winger and striker. Which would make my squad 21 (so I think Stipermann is likely to leave to get game time).
The interesting bit comes with Godfrey, Cantwell and Raggett, three players with the homegrown tag. Ideally they all need game time, and there''s lot of loan rumours surrounding them, but they''d be useful for their homegrown status.

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All well-reasoned with some very pertinent points made. Unless we sign more Homegrown players it does seem loan opportunities will be limited for the likes of Cantwell & Raggett. My research tells me that the key number is 7 rather than 8 - that''s a minimum of 7 Homegrown players, but it can include the requirement of 1 Club Developed Player. At the moment that 7 looks like Hanley, Lewis, Marshall, Matthews, Godfrey and 2 out of Husband, Cantwell and Raggett, presuming Thompson remains unavailable. But what happens if 2 or 3 of those are injured? So that tells me there''s still changes to be made to the squad to adjust the imbalance

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It''s an interesting one, but we can only hope that Webber is on top of it. My thought is that we have done our main foreign business (though more could be done if, for example, NO leaves) and are waiting - as all PL clubs are - for the World Cup to finish before the merry go round gets going. We can then get 2-3 loans sorted. which will undoubtedly be ''homegrown'' (keeper, Wilson, the Chelsea lad?).

Certainly a fair number of the guys on the ''foreign'' list, like Naismith and Pinto seem less than likely to be here.

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This is where it gets very complicated these days. You can see why they''ve done it, but it makes clubs like us trying to operate smartly on a budget a bit more hindered.

From this season 2018-19, 7 (not 8, that''s the Premier League) "homegrown" players must be listed in each match day squad. A "club developed" player may also be named, but if not then the club can only list 6 substitutes instead of the normal 7.

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/efl-clubs-increase-homegrown-quota-in-matchday-squads-a3509346.html

City’s ‘homegrown’ players – 12: Remi Matthews, Sean Raggett, Grant Hanley, James Husband, Jamal Lewis, Louis Thompson, Matt Jarvis, Russell Martin, Adam Phillips, Ben Godfrey, Todd Cantwell, Ben Marshall

Injured and not counted: Morris

Players who don’t qualify – 17: Michael McGovern, Ivo Pinto, Christoph Zimmermann, Timm Klose, Marco Stiepermann, Mario Vrancic, Tom Trybull, Alex Tettey, Kenny McLean, Onel Hernandez, Moritz Leitner, Yanic Wildschut, Nelson Oliveira, Dennis Srbeny, Teemu Pukki, Emiliano Buendía, Felix Passlack

Which is the same number in each pot from last season. They players just need to be in the squad, not necessarily play which would probably pretty much guarantee the following will feature as subs or in the starting XI;

1) Remi Matthews

2) Jamal Lewis

3) Grant Hanley

4) Sean Raggett

5) Ben Marshall

6) Ben Godfrey

7) 1 of Thompson/Husband/Martin/Cantwell

I do think we will probably sign a few more "homegrown" players before the window closes, but we are OK, certainly no worse off in this area than last season.

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I suspect we will sign some qualifying players on loan to muddy the waters further.

However I for one am glad that we are perceived as having too many decent options. We will want and need to rotate and there is nothing to suggest that Farke wont do just that again this season.

I want the best performers on the pitch and good cover for loss of form injury and suspensions. Every player should be earning their spot in the line up - it is up to the player, whether home grown or not to make their case for inclusion impossible to ignore.

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Bit like what ZLF is saying, I don''t think it''s a bad thing. We were unable to rotate at times last season when we wanted to due to injuries and other times we just didn''t have quality options. You have to take into account at any one time there''s likely to be a couple of injuries / knocks and that soon makes the midfield look a little less congested.

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To clarify I think having options is great. However I don''t think having to bame players on the bench for quota purposes is good for us.

If you have a situation where you have to name Martin over Pinto or Jarvis over Hernandez then it isn''t ideal.

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How does dual nationality play into it? Surely someone like tettey could apply for British citizenship from living in the UK for so long. I''m thinking back many years from old football manager games but I thought it was 5 years?

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Still wouldn''t count. It''s not about nationality, it''s about the country you trained in between 17-21 I think.

So technically Cesc Fabregas counts as home grown, as does Savos Mourgas in our youth team.

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[quote user="king canary"]To clarify I think having options is great. However I don''t think having to bame players on the bench for quota purposes is good for us.

If you have a situation where you have to name Martin over Pinto or Jarvis over Hernandez then it isn''t ideal.[/quote]
No, agreed. I think with a couple of english loan signings we''ll have enough flexibility but of course, you''re right in that there will be a couple of decent (as far as we''re concerned right now, anyway) players that miss out on occasion. I think keeping players happy isn''t too difficult in the championship, the quick turnover of games from Saturday - Tuesday plus cup fixtures helps.

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With Marshall''s arrival do you think that means we won''t be going back for Reed?

I think over the course of the season he warmed himself to the supporters and played wherever he was told.

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99% certain Norwich won’t go for Reed. No space for him the squad at right back or in midfield.

Norwich are probably a few players too deep at the moment.

Can see Stieperman being told he is free to leave as well as the obvious ones. I also wouldn’t be massively surprised if Srebeny ends up back in Germany if Norwich can arrange the loan of Premier League striker. (Seperate from Nelson leaving and a first choice striker coming in).

An obvious ‘quick win’ for homegrown players would be if McGovern can be shifted and a home grown keeper brought in - either first choice or cover for Matthews.

It is going to be a bit of a mad window, only 5 weeks left and lots of clubs still have a lot to sort out. Then a few more weeks of loans allowed to come in and overseas clubs still able to sign players. Can see a few clubs panicking in a few weeks time and throwing cash around at average players.

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I imagine we probably tried to get Reed given how fond Farke seemed on him, but Southampton probably want to keep him which is to be expected really.

Given that we''ve now signed Marshall AND Passlack, I''d say that definitely removes any chance of signing Reed.

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