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Fiery Zac

VAR doesn’t work

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[quote user="kick it off"][quote user="Fiery Zac"]....In your opinion. I’ve got mine and it’s not ridiculous except, again, in your opinion.[/quote] and everybody else with eyes that aren''t blocked by St George glasses.[/quote]

And I have an opinion too. Just wondering when you are next due to visit Specsavers!

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]VAR does work if used correctly. They have not, however, yet worked out the best framework for its use and it also will not work correctly if applied ineptly (or perhaps even corruptly) as it was in the England game last night.

I watched the Sweden game yesterday afternoon and VAR was used correctly to award Sweden a penalty following an intervention by the VAR. The same has happened in other games including the France game (although the pen there was a bit more 50/50). It is inexplicable that the VAR officials last night did not do the same for the 3 times Kane and Maguire were rugby tackled in the box at corners all of which were clear penalties. I hope I am wrong but it seems to me a huge coincidence that England were the victims of this.

You can just tell that now there is going to be a clampdown on wrestling in the box which will see penalties given in similar situations in future games, probably with one against us in one of our remaining games.

If VAR is going to work then the terms of reference need to be clear and consistent. Ironically, although the penalty given against us was soft, i think the fact it was not reversed by VAR was the correct outcome because there was contact and the matter then really becomes a subjective which means it wasn''t a clear and obvious error.

The other thing that would help with VAR would be if like rugby you could hear the conversation between the officials or at least it was made available after the game so you could understand the rationale behind the decisions.[/quote]

VAR does work if used correctly ???

What does used correctly mean? No-one knows. It is smothered in confusion. The communication is hopeless.

People in the stadium do not know what is happening. It is not being applied consistently but at the discretion of those sitting in the little boys room. In sort, a shambles.

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We have technology as never before, use it.

Too many games are ruined by horrendous on the spot refereeing decisions, too many mistakes with long term implications.

All supporters will remember the glaring ones that went against their team at vital moments in a game.

Did Simon Hooper''s decision to rule out Jerome''s perfectly valid goal on the opening day of Neal''s first Premier League season set the club and manager back sufficiently to effect the outcome of the season. We fully deserved at least a point against Palace after all?

Did Frank Lampard''s over the line goal against Germany prevent England progressing in that World Cup?

With a great deal of the discussion on programmes such as MotD always needing to be devoted to decisions, and bad ones at that, it can be nothing but good that technology can be used to improve things.

Will clubs like City no longer be on the end of poor refereeing decisions when up against the big boys because this safety net against bias exists?

The fact that VAR is has been criticised so much in this competition lies in it''s poor implementation, imo. It just hasn''t been thought through well enough. Typical though that it has been on the cards for years.

The systems in both RU, cricket and tennis have been successful because they were single minded in their inception and lacked the wishy-washy FIFA planning whereby nobody seems to know exactly just what to do. Even the pundits on our screens seem unable to grasp exactly what''s happening, and it''s their job to know.

Give it a spell of teething problems, learn from mistakes and perhaps eventually it will become a godsend for fairer, mistakeless officialdom. Nobody wants to see a result decided by a mistake.

Am I correct in saying that the decision in front of the screens

is left to just one man? If so, it should be three.

Lesson one.

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]We have technology as never before, use it.

Too many games are ruined by horrendous on the spot refereeing decisions, too many mistakes with long term implications.

All supporters will remember the glaring ones that went against their team at vital moments in a game.

Did Simon Hooper''s decision to rule out Jerome''s perfectly valid goal on the opening day of Neal''s first Premier League season set the club and manager back sufficiently to effect the outcome of the season. We fully deserved at least a point against Palace after all?

Did Frank Lampard''s over the line goal against Germany prevent England progressing in that World Cup?

With a great deal of the discussion on programmes such as MotD always needing to be devoted to decisions, and bad ones at that, it can be nothing but good that technology can be used to improve things.

Will clubs like City no longer be on the end of poor refereeing decisions when up against the big boys because this safety net against bias exists?

The fact that VAR is has been criticised so much in this competition lies in it''s poor implementation, imo. It just hasn''t been thought through well enough. Typical though that it has been on the cards for years.

The systems in both RU, cricket and tennis have been successful because they were single minded in their inception and lacked the wishy-washy FIFA planning whereby nobody seems to know exactly just what to do. Even the pundits on our screens seem unable to grasp exactly what''s happening, and it''s their job to know.

Give it a spell of teething problems, learn from mistakes and perhaps eventually it will become a godsend for fairer, mistakeless officialdom. Nobody wants to see a result decided by a mistake.

Am I correct in saying that the decision in front of the screens

is left to just one man? If so, it should be three.

Lesson one.[/quote]

Broadstairs, I agree with much of what you say but I think its interesting the two incidents you highlight. As much as we may moan about it, the Jerome one was a subjective decision (plus play had technically stopped as soon as the free kick was given) and thus one that I don;t think is appropriate for VAR. The Lampard one clearly was and obviously with the goal line technology we now have would have stood.

I agree entirely though that the way VAR is implemented needs to be fine tuned. It should be used in two scenarios - where the referee on the field of play is not sure and wants to check something (e.g. did the ball go over the line, was the player offside, did it touch his hand or chest, I''ve not given that because I don;t think there was contact but can you check) or where the VAR officials intervene because something very clear has been missed and they then draw this to the referees attention so he can look again at the incident (i.e. did you see that wrestling on Kane, if not then you should have another look at that).

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Fair enough about the Hooper decision, but perhaps each side should be allocated two appeals during a game ... as in cricket.

I would rather have these contentious decisions being subject to a panel of three than to a n incompetent like Hooper.

If you think about it, goal-line type decisions apart, there is a thin line between what is contentious and what is blatantly wrong.

The decision about the mauling of Kane was considered wrong by most except those two that counted yet the outcome has caused much criticism of VAR.

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I''ve noticed they has been a increase in the number of penalties being awarded so whether this is good or bad as this can affect a team sitting back or not. Also in the games I''ve seen I''ve not seen any VAR moments where the players has been booked/sent off for simulation or diving so maybe VAR is good for stopping that.

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I think VAR has it''s plus points but I also think it takes something away from the game, not to mention the ridiculous delays whilst the full kit refs are watching the footage back in the room whilst communicating to the ref. I think the problem with VAR is if the ref says no penalty or whatever, and we at home or in the crowd know it should be, we are still relying on the people doing their job in the VAR room. And as the Kane incidents showed, they did not. I''m also fully expecting to see players mimic a TV screen more and more after a decision hasn''t gone their way.

Personally I was more than happy with just goal-line technology. It''s instantaneous and the ball is either over the line or not. Plus it works very well. VAR seems far too clunky, at the moment at least.

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[quote user="alex_ncfc"]I think VAR has it''s plus points but I also think it takes something away from the game, not to mention the ridiculous delays whilst the full kit refs are watching the footage back in the room whilst communicating to the ref. I think the problem with VAR is if the ref says no penalty or whatever, and we at home or in the crowd know it should be, we are still relying on the people doing their job in the VAR room. And as the Kane incidents showed, they did not. I''m also fully expecting to see players mimic a TV screen more and more after a decision hasn''t gone their way.

Personally I was more than happy with just goal-line technology. It''s instantaneous and the ball is either over the line or not. Plus it works very well. VAR seems far too clunky, at the moment at least.[/quote]
Two sets of officials who know the rules decided that they were not penalties, are we sure that those ''experts'' on the TV and in the media know the rules, I''m not convinced, probably the last TV pundit who had passed a referees exam was Jimmy Hill.

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Alex - "I''m also fully expecting to see players mimic a TV screen more and more after a decision hasn''t gone their way."

I seem to remember a Chelsea player (Morata I think) doing exactly that in our FA Cup replay in January. As far as I''m concerned, that should result in an immediate yellow card to the person doing the signing, as it should for someone waving an imaginary yellow card in a ref''s face.

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I didnt see the show but does anyone know what Clattenburgs view was?

I agree it is hard to accept the pundits view as they get the laws wrong so often. I know it was lawro but he is still peddling the line that the french VAR penalty against Australia was wrong when it was patently the right overturn.

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Well that was certainly a load of squit. Thanks.

No consistency. No control on a game. More cheating. More controversy.

Yes VAR has made some correct decisions but then so do referees without any help. VAR is supposed to be eradicating the wrong decision of clear cut incidents involving goals, penalties etc. Is it doing that?

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The one thing I''d like to see, VAR or otherwise, is to have somebody review the games, and everyone who rolls on the floor without being fouled - especially those rolling on the floor holding their heads - when they clearly haven''t been fouled get a one match ban. That would hopefully stop it especially when teams are using it to stop the game and get attention for a ''non-injury'' just to break the game up. Some of the theatrics have been embarrassing.

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First Wazzock wrote the following post at 27/06/2018 11:23 PM:

The one thing I''d like to see, VAR or otherwise, is to have somebody review the games, and everyone who rolls on the floor without being fouled - especially those rolling on the floor holding their heads - when they clearly haven''t been fouled get a one match ban. That would hopefully stop it especially when teams are using it to stop the game and get attention for a ''non-injury'' just to break the game up. Some of the theatrics have been embarrassing.

------------------------------------------------------------

Even easier FW.

Anybody who falls over unnecessarily should get the one match ban, whether they are fouled or not!

Also take into consideration the players who, with minimal contact after a ''coming together'', fall over as if they had been shot. The same should apply.

The only down side is that referees would have to start giving free kicks for fouls where the players don''t ''help them out'' by falling over. Not all fouls cause a player to fall over.

This used to be a man''s game where players would be completely embarrassed to do some of the things they do now!

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Players caught ''feigning'' injury and/or attempting to slow the game down or to get a player punished/sent off by nefarious means........Should receive a Yellow card and in some cases an ''equity card''......then be sent off to a ''sin bin'' for 15 minutes......

It''s not ''gamesmanship'' it''s downright cheating......and a review panel of the ''feigning'' incidents made by officials after the match should then decide whether a one game ban of the offender/actor should be given......for being a cheating unsportsmanlike scumbag......

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They could take a leaf out of Rugby League''s book and referees put players on report until after the game where after calm reviews without players milling round and supporters screaming for blood, the right punishments can be handed out.

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As far as I am concerned the jury is still out. One man (the Ref) can still make the wrong decision as can several people (VAR), so is this a major improvement?

The problem I have with the game is blatant time wasting, and I''ve got to say the Refs are doing themselves no favours here. To see Refs arguing with loads of players over decisions rather than marking out where the wall should be and spraying the line is wasting loads of time which doesn''t get added on. And, on that score if several of our players were to hound the Ref after decisions we would get charged with ''Failing to control our players''. What are Argentina and the suchlike being charged with? bearing in mind these are supposed to be the best Refs on the planet, why they can''t dish out a few yellow cards to mark their authority is beyond me. We moan about inconsistency in our game but there is plenty to be seen in Russia.

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Just to back up my last post - the refs are not doing them selves any favours here. How did Colombia manage to keep 11 on the pitch tonight, answers on a postcard...

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I wonder how much refs are ''advised'' not to ''spoil'' the game by sending a player off.
Not only was that rugby tackle one of the most blatant penalties in this cup, but then to compound it by having the Colombian players jostling the referee trying to argue it wasn''t merely added to the offence.
VAR is a nonsense just something dreamed up to slow down the game so it becomes a series of ''incidents'' rather than a free flowing sport. The idea that all decisions are exact as in a swimming race and are not subjective is absurd.
Ater the penalty was scored the ref should have taken their captain over to their manager and told both that next time that happens he will send off the player he considers is nearest to him. And will continue to do so each time he is surrounded, after making a decision.

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The thing with VAR is its only going to work if they remove as much of the subjectivity as possible. Offsides and line decisions are objective - sometimes you might still not be able to completely tell using the cameras (in which case you stick with the onfield decision as in cricket’s lbw system) but there’s no interpretation from the VAR refs needed.

In other situations it’s harder, but FIFA/rule markers/the refs themselves need to make it easier on themselves. I mean why was Henderson booked last night - if he headbutted the opposition isn’t that a red card? Same for the Colombia chap who got booked for head butting Henderson. There needs to be clarity and transparency.

Handball decisions are ludicrous and I think really need to stick with the on field decision unless there is something absolutely blatant. Handball has to be deliberate - that is almost entirely dependent on the refs view of whether it was deliberate or not. I saw one game earlier in the tournament where the defender headed it against his own arm, ref gave nothing, VAR intervened and penalty given - harshly. But then nobody else in the studio etc could agree if it was a penalty or not - so why was VAR used to overrule the ref when it was such a subjective decision?

As for the time delays and crowding round the refs, Colombia last night should have had six players booked at the time of the penalty. The refs need to be really harsh on it - if you’re in my face asking me to review or moaning about it then you get booked. Do it twice and you’re off. Maybe let the captain have a chat as in rugby but otherwise everybody else stays away. 6+ minutes of stoppage time every game isn’t good.

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The var yellow card for the head butt was ludicrous. But that was down to poor officiating not the var system. The system caught the offence as the ref was sorting out another matter, but why he didnt go to the screen to assess himself is beyond me. Red or nothing offence.

Once the refs get to grips with it things will improve but it is still bedding in.

The corner wrestling is getting ridiculous, from attackers and defenders; It was a clear pen to england but it could be argued that Kane committed the first foul in pushing barrias away; that is how ludicrous things have got.

As with dissent the rules are there for the refs to assert control, if it means a red card or too tough $h!

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Nothing will work if we don''t have officials, and that includes the FIFA chaps, with enough bottle to enforce the rules that are already in existence.

A head butt is violent play, ask Zidane, and a straight red card. Second half, Barrios, already on his paltry yellow card, committed six other fouls, surely enough in terms of accumulation, to warrant a second yellow.

Some of these refs are not used to pressure and I find it extraordinary that someone like Michael Oliver isn''t deemed good enough to be there.

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