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shefcanary

It could be a lot worse .....

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Championship club asks court to determine how much owners should support its projected losses of £10 million.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-44768207

Sheffield United''s Kevin McCabe and Prince Abdullah in court fight

The owners of firms running Sheffield United FC are embroiled in a High Court battle after "falling out badly".

Relations between Kevin McCabe and Prince Abdullah have so deteriorated Mr McCabe is "willing" to give up his involvement in the Championship club.

At a preliminary hearing in London, Mr Justice Fancourt said the club is "consistently loss-making".

One area of disagreement has been over how much needs to be spent on players for next season, the court heard.

Prince Abdullah has been involved in the club since 2013.

Meanwhile, Mr McCabe and family have been involved for many years and invested "much money".

A trial is not expected for some time but Mr Justice Fancourt has been asked to make funding decisions for the first half of the 2018-19 season.

Business managers say the club needs £10m until January, despite promotion from League One in 2016-17 and a top-10 Championship finish in the 2017-18 season.

The judge said Mr McCabe and family own Sheffield United Ltd, while Prince Abdullah Bin Mosaad Bin Abdulaziz Al Saud, a Saudi royal, owns UTB LLC.

Each owned 50% of shares in Blades Leisure Ltd, which owned all shares in The Sheffield United Football Club Ltd and ran the club, the judge noted.

In 2013, UTB LLC invested £10m in the club and bought the 50% share stake in Blades Leisure.

Sheffield United in ownership talks

But a series of disagreements on spending since 2017 have led to relations between Mr McCabe and Prince Abdullah to deteriorate.

The judge said when the Blades offered to buy shares, UTB responded with a "manoeuvre" meaning it was entitled to "purchase all Sheffield''s shares at a low price", causing "consternation and upset".

He said the McCabes felt "tricked", "the parties fell out badly", and UTB sued Sheffield United Ltd.

The club made a counter claim, and Mr McCabe has said he is "even willing to give up his involvement in the football club" over the row.

The judge said it was "impossible" to say which firm, if any, will emerge in control of the club.

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if only we had one of them there ''hinvestors''
(or two it would seem)

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Or birmingham having an ffp transfer embargo following ''Arrys latest splurging

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Pointless post, as I could give examples of really good owners who have spent money. It''s about choosing the right investor not between an investor or no investment.

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[quote user="Zimmers Left Foot"]Or birmingham having an ffp transfer embargo following ''Arrys latest splurging[/quote]https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/what-transfer-embargo-what-would-14885448http://almajir.net/2018/07/09/bcfc-pedersen-not-signed/

Go on then Mike. I know about Man City, Chelsea, Brighton, Leicester and Bournemouth and would welcome such intervention. I just don''t think it''s very likely that we will get similar as poor "investors" seem to outnumber the good ones. Name all the other successful investor-led clubs and explain how you ensure that you get a good investor rather than a bad one.

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Hang on, Huddersfield haven''t been close to having the same 10 years we''ve just had. Let''s wait and see before we now add them to the list.
Certainly, the list of f*ck ups is growing at a much faster rate than the successes.

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Thing is many of the examples of "careful what you wish for clubs" we''re once examples of "plenty of good owners clubs"

Who will be next?

Southampton? Stoke? Watford? Even Huddersfield?

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@Hogesar

He said ''successful'' not ''more successful than Norwich in the last decade.''

Dean Hoyle took them over as a mid-level league one club in 2008, they are now in the Premier League. That is successful.

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There are inherently more ‘bad’ owners than ‘good’ ones.

Bad owners come and go relatively quickly, while good ones tend to stick around and don’t often move once they have established themselves (part of what makes them good).

The problem is ‘bad’ owners don’t care who they sell the club to, so once you’ve had one it is harder to get a ‘good’ one.

The thing in common about the ‘good’ ones, is they have the best interests of the club in mind, as well as having stacks of cash. Very rarely do you find a ‘good’ owner who is also looking to make a profit from the club they own. Judging the quality of ownership is always flawed while they are still present, how they sell or pass on the club is usually the most important thing.

Ultimately having the best interest of the club at heart is the most important thing and I’d take some with that genuine intention over someone with stacks of cash every time.

In your list King I’d put a big question mark next to Southampton. The Liebherrs were good, although Katherine never really had her heart in it and did it in memory of her farther - the new Gao Jisheng owner restricted transfer spending last season and general lack of leadership was a large part of the reason Southampton struggled for so long. Luckily in Les Reed and Ralph Kruger they have some very effective directors who managed to keep the club up despite the ownership.

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I''m not sure the question mark is that big to be honest Bethnal. The investment took them from administration in League One to the Premier League, allowed them to run one of the most successful academies in the country and also gave them a brand new £40m training ground.

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I was more commenting on the current owners.

Southampton’s ownership of being a deadman’s trust was pretty unique in all honesty and the best thing Katherine did was not get involved at all and allowed specialists run the club. The ownership made zero investment after Marcus’s death.

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[quote user="king canary"]

Southampton

Nearly relegated last year and operating below their long-term average position. Originally "picked up for a song" following relegation and financial difficulties. This will not apply to us - not a realistic option, I''m afraid. BTW, the owners did not "give" Southampton FC money but lent it and charged interest for it. Their "business model" was heavily dependant on player sales.(They have recently changed ownership so too early to judge new owners).Stoke

Just relegated. Owned by the Coates family who are worth over £5 billion (Bet365). Peter Stokes was Stoke on Trent born and played for them as a youth. I would love to have such a strong and very rich fan owning the club -but who would this be? According to the Sunday Times richlist, Marcus Evens is the richest person in East Anglia.It would be nice but I fear it falls into the Father Christmas wish list category.I would also add that different companies own the club and the ground. As a general rule, this would make me nervous! And they had Tony Pulis as a manager - I would never be that desperate for success! Again, Stoke were picked up for a far lower figure than we might expect NCFC to be sold for.Watford

Currently in the PL, but only have a similar record to ours in recent years. No evidence that it is a long-term success due to ownership, although, it is looking promising. I don''t know  much about their finances.Even HudderfieldManaged to stay up last year and did very well to

get promoted. As far as I''m aware their promotion was not due to a big

injection of cash from their owners. I don''t know much about their

finances, but my understanding is that they were subsidised by their

owner but that he was determinedly moving a self-sufficient model as we are.Again

the owner (Dean Hoyle) is a lifelong fan and not really typical of the

"investor model." He sold Card factory for "only" £250 million along

with his wife. Although far richer than Delia - he does not have to

wealth to sustain long-term multi-million pound debts - without Premier League payments, they would be far worse off than us financially.
[/quote]So, all in all, of the 4 you identified, two are owned by fans, which I would support - the key here, unfortunately, is finding someone rich enough - any suggestions?Two fall closer to the "investor model," and even then the Liebherr family had strong local connections and managed to buy Southampton very cheaply. It remains below it''s long term average position, so is "positionally" worse off if we compare finances to performance.Unless you have any other examples, it is much easier, I''m afraid to find examples of where the investor model has made things worse or made little difference, than it is to find examples of where it has made things better.

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You seem to have some strange and varied criteria for whatl qualifies success. Whether or not a club has had Tony Pulis as manager is entirely irrelevent for instance.

So lets walk it back to the tranditional meaure of success in any sport- how well you do on the pitch.

Norwich City (under current owners)

22 seasons

5 in the Premier League

Position when taken over- 16th in Championship

Highest position- 11th in Premier League

Lowest position- 1st in League One

Notable cup runs- ?

Stoke City (under Peter Coates)

12 seasons

10 in the Premier League

Position when taken over- 13th in Championship

Highest position- 9th in Premier League

Lowest Positions- 8th in Championship

Notable cup runs- FA Cup finalists, last 32 of Europa League

Watford (under Pozzo''s)

6 seasons

3 in the Premier League

Position when taken over- 11th in Championship

Highest position- 13th in Premier League

Lowest position- 13th in Championship

Notable cup runs- FA Cup semi final

Southampton (under Liebherrs)

8 seasons

5 in the Premier League

Position when taken over- 23rd in Championship

Highest position- 6th in the Premier League

Lowest position- 7th in League One (started on -10 points)

Notable cup runs- EFL cup final, Europa League appearances

Huddersfield

9 seasons

1 in the Premier League

Position when taken over- 9th in League One

Highest positions- 16th in Premier League

Lowest position- 6th in League One

Notable cup runs- ?

So tell me which of these are not ''successful?''

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We should be eternally grateful to Delia whatever. Has anyone mentioned she saved us yet?

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We should be eternally grateful that we stuck with Delia and MWJ instead of getting into bed with the vast majority of the owners pined for on here. I would imagine most would agree with that. Will be interesting to see how many of Kingo''s latest four are still good examples in a few years time. Many previous ones are not held up anymore...

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[quote user="JF"]We should be eternally grateful to Delia whatever. Has anyone mentioned she saved us yet?[/quote]Only you.Personally, I''m not interested in the past but the future. I would love a billionaire fan to take us over a la Brighton, but don''t think that this is very likely. I don''t know if any of our fans have the wealth of a Coates of Stoke, Bloom of Brighton etc.I would be very concerned about us being an investment vehicle for someone looking to make a profit from us - as there is a great risk if the main criteria is profit rather than the club''s long term health. Too often this involves a sh*t or bust gamble on promotion, which if unsuccessful, leaves the club saddled with debt, whilst the owners try to get rid of the club and/ or minimise losses.

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[quote user=" Badger"][quote user="JF"]We should be eternally grateful to Delia whatever. Has anyone mentioned she saved us yet?[/quote]Only you.Personally, I''m not interested in the past but the future. I would love a billionaire fan to take us over a la Brighton, but don''t think that this is very likely. I don''t know if any of our fans have the wealth of a Coates of Stoke, Bloom of Brighton etc.I would be very concerned about us being an investment vehicle for someone looking to make a profit from us - as there is a great risk if the main criteria is profit rather than the club''s long term health. Too often this involves a sh*t or bust gamble on promotion, which if unsuccessful, leaves the club saddled with debt, whilst the owners try to get rid of the club and/ or minimise losses.[/quote]

Investment opportunity? Did I read we asked for £5m in return for a healthy return recently? No....

Ps Leicester, Cardiff, Fulham,....

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Cardiff and Fulham is ridiculous. Why didn''t anyone want to be them in May 2015?

The funniest thing about the way you seamlessly move from club to club is that you don''t appear to realise it....

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Given that the Suffolk Socialists have only ever been successful when they brought in Bowkett and McNasty to run the club on their behalf, then surely the logical replacement would be Les Reed.

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[quote user="Big Vince"]Given that the Suffolk Socialists have only ever been successful when they brought in Bowkett and McNasty to run the club on their behalf, then surely the logical replacement would be Les Reed.[/quote]
It''s not a given though, they had promotion to the Premier League before Bowkett & McNally.

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[quote user="Mike "]Investment opportunity? Did I read we asked for £5m in return for a healthy return recently? No....

Ps Leicester, Cardiff, Fulham,....[/quote]Leicester - as I said originally we know about them, Man City, Chelsea and BournemouthFulham spent 13 years in the Premiership until taken over by their current mega-rich owner. They were relegated the next season after his takeover and have subsequently spent four years in the Championship.Cardiff - 1 year in the Premiership and relegated - the rest of the time in the Championship.Neither has been as successful as us in recent years. The investor model fails far more often than it succeeds. What we need is a rich patron - but these are hard to come by and are usually fans. I wouldn''t turn down a billionaire City fan - but don''t want an investment company that has no interest in us to take us over in order as a bet to try to make a profit. It fails far more often than it succeeds.

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Cardiff and Fulham are in the premiership last time I looked... History is a great thing but the future is what is most important. Hoping the "revolution we all wanted" is a success. Still easier to do within investment as any business CEO will tell you.

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[quote user="Mike "]Cardiff and Fulham are in the premiership last time I looked... History is a great thing but the future is what is most important. Hoping the "revolution we all wanted" is a success. Still easier to do within investment as any business CEO will tell you.[/quote]Not sure that any business CEO would tell me that, Mike. British industry is notoriously reluctant to invest and has very low investment. (Incidentally this shows the silliness of the UK''s ultra low Corporation tax, which despite what the govt says does NOT encourage investment.)A recent report from the ONS shows that the UK''s investment was the lowest of any OECD nation in the last 20 years."Between Quarter 1 1997 and Quarter 2 (Apr to June) 2017, the UK had the

lowest average value of GFCF
as a percentage of gross domestic product

(GDP) of any Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development

(OECD) nation."GFCF = gross fixed capital formation = investmenthttps://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/articles/aninternationalcomparisonofgrossfixedcapitalformation/2017-11-02

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I don’t think there is anyone who would argue that having more money doesn’t make things easier for a football club. It doesn’t provide any guarantees of course, as seen time and time again, but it certainly helps.

The issue many people have is who the money comes from and what their intentions are, there is a big difference from having a Tony Xia or a Tony Bloom.

To my knowledge there aren’t many/any billionaire Norwich fans. So personally I’d rather stick with Delia at the moment and Norwich cut their cloth accordingly.

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One of the myths peddled about success is how it is judged.
Sure, any injection of a large amount of money will bring quick success.
Ask Blackpool, FA Cup winners Wigan and Portsmouth.
QPR, Sunderland, Sheff Utd, Leeds, Birmingham
Simply clinging on in the PL whilst racking up huge debts is not my measure of success as the near collapse of the club is usually just a matter of time
Sadly some of the not too bright do not seem to grasp that ''hinvestment'' might come with strings attached.
Those who have made enormous sums of money do not tend to simply want to hand it over out of the goodness of their heart - and it is only now a few years down the line that we are seeing the true cost being paid and suffered.

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]I don’t think there is anyone who would argue that having more money doesn’t make things easier for a football club. [/quote]It certainly can make things easier in the short term - the problem arises when the pit isn''t bottomless. If the short-term gamble doesn''t pay off generous investors start to worry about losing too much and tend to start exploring damage limitation exercises, which generally don''t help the football side of the club.As ever, there is the need to distinguish between "investors" seeking to make a profit and mega rich fans, whose motives are different (e.g. Brighton and Stoke). As you say, I don''t know of billionaire Norwich fans - the EDP ran a story after publication of the Sunday Times rich list suggesting Lord Iveagh and the Guinness family, who own the 22,500 acre Elveden Estate, were the richest Norfolk inhabitants - I don''t know if he''s a city fan?FWIW, Marcus Evans is 5th richest in East Anglia with about £800 million, but this hasn''t been enough to transform Ipswich.http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/richest-people-in-east-anglia-2018-sunday-times-rich-list-1-5515628

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[quote user="Mike "]Cardiff and Fulham are in the premiership last time I looked... History is a great thing but the future is what is most important. Hoping the "revolution we all wanted" is a success. Still easier to do within investment as any business CEO will tell you.[/quote]
I get it now Mike.
You probably are better flitting from club to club then. Or nail your colours to one of the big boys....

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