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vlad666

Sarri

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Came across a quote from sarri after Chelsea played inter a few days back.

"All over the pitch though we move the ball very quickly and we moved it well tonight, but not at the right speed. You have to move the ball at a great speed on the floor. Otherwise we risk to play for 90 minutes with 75 per cent ball possession but without scoring. That''s what we need to improve on.”

Really reminded me of us last season. Plenty of possession but no end product. As he says you have to move the ball a lot quicker to be effective. Do we now have the players capable to be successful with this system or are we facing a similar season?

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Interesting point, although we actually created plenty of chances last season without anyone really taking them. If you look at the stats you''ll see what I mean. We had a misfiring strike force.So, we have tried to address this for the coming season but in pre-season, our defence looked weak. It''s really difficult to get a balance.We have the potential to move the ball quickly but, last season, we saw too much of that going in the wrong direction. For example... (not trying to single people out) but as much as I like Leitner, he seems to be putting his foot on the ball and passing sideways and backwards too much just now. With him as an attacking midfielder we may struggle to get any flow to our moves. He needs to start driving forward with the ball more and actually have some shots, as well as picking key passes to unlock defence, if he''s to play that role.

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[quote user="BobLoz3"]Interesting point, although we actually created plenty of chances last season without anyone really taking them. If you look at the stats you''ll see what I mean. We had a misfiring strike force.So, we have tried to address this for the coming season but in pre-season, our defence looked weak. It''s really difficult to get a balance.We have the potential to move the ball quickly but, last season, we saw too much of that going in the wrong direction. For example... (not trying to single people out) but as much as I like Leitner, he seems to be putting his foot on the ball and passing sideways and backwards too much just now. With him as an attacking midfielder we may struggle to get any flow to our moves. He needs to start driving forward with the ball more and actually have some shots, as well as picking key passes to unlock defence, if he''s to play that role.[/quote]

I would love to know what is classed as a chance as I watched all our games last season and rarely thought we were going to score. We did have a terrible habit of rolling slow passes as the original poster points out

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It is simply about getting players into the box

Look at the goals scored by Klose, Lewis and Vrancic for example. Whether it is Rhodes, Oliveira or Van Wolfswinkel in the middle, they are not going to do it by themselves.

Luckily last season we had Maddison who could score from distance so hopefully his departure will change our outlook.

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Dylan... Take a look at the stats... We were second in the table (at home) for shots per game. Demostrating that chances were created, just not taken. Yes, that also includes some ludicrous pot shots I''d imagine but, we didn''t do too badly.We were third in the table for pass accuracy at home, but for the most part these were going the wrong way I''d imagine!Interestingly, we were fifth overall for possession (which is, supposedly, what our game is based on).I''m not saying things were perfect, far from it, but to say we didn''t create chances is...well... nonsense.(Ps. I watched all games last seaon too...of course! At the stadium and through other methods when it came to away games)

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I think a lot of our chances were from outside the box. With a slow build up like last season it allows defences to get set and it’s hard to break them down. With a quicker build up we’ll hopefull get in behind more often.

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It''s all very well advocating "moving the ball faster", but in many situations that simply means "giving the ball away faster". There are times to move the ball forward quickly, and times to prioritise keeping possession. Furthermore, creating and executing situations in which moving the ball forward quickly is absolutely the thing to do, requires awareness and movement from team mates. If others (e.g. last season, too often, Murphy) don''t "see" what''s needed from them, players with good tactical appreciation like Leitner and Vrancic are left with no alternative but to pass sideways or backwards. More often than not, the fault for slowing down the game lies not with them but with others.

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Shots taken isn''t a great mesure for the reason you mention- Murphy or Nelson taking a 30 yard potshot is a ''chance'' in that stat.

In terms of expected goals we were firmly mid-table- 12 or 13th I think but we finished 19th in goals scored that suggests we were wasteful and if we''d taken our chances we''d have scored about 8 or 9 more goals.

I do agree with the OP though- with the amount of the ball we had we should have been creating more and lots of this came down to slow build up. I''m not advocating Pulis style tactics but if you win the ball with opposition defenders out of position then you need to take advantage of that with swift balls forward. Slow, sideways passing, putting your foot on it, etc etc just lets teams get back into position. The Hull game at home was a perfect example of everything that was wrong with the approach.

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A CB will sit and watch you passing it around in front of them all day just shifting side to side

you play a ball over top or in the space behind them they then are in a situation where they could be in trouble

we were so slow sometimes last season we even let the other sides midfielders back so we had 4 banks or two watching our defenders pass it around

we must get the other teams defenders running towards their own goal more and turn teams slow build up will not win you games

you need that explosion of pace / killer ball and movement e.g as Man city

i really fear Farke will play the same way as he did last season

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It was painfully slow at times last season and it’s not unreasonable to expect a higher tempo. Too many touches often ended promising situations.

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@westcoast

Agree with quite a bit of that.

However I think Farke had his prioritization out of whack last season- the team seemed at times almost scared to try something a touch risky because they didn''t want to lose the ball.

I''d agree there was often a lack of movement but I observed in games players making good runs only to be ignored by our safety first midfield and the opportunity gone. There is a reason Nelson was barely ever in the box and had to drop deep/get wide- he wasn''t seeing any of the ball as it was so rarely played forward.

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i Agree King C i hate this new safety First football i think the older supporters and i include myself in that are used to a more up and at them passionate attacking football

there is a time and a place for keep the ball when you are 2 nill up and want to see the game out

but keeping the ball at 1-0 down is beyond me without throwing the kitchen sink at the other teams goal

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@king canary
Farke''s timescale is not the timescale of most fans. Having the basics of the system effectively internalised by every player takes time, and accelerating the process by off-loading players who can''t or won''t, and bringing in players who can and will, takes time too. 
"A good run" doesn''t refer to what a single player does; it''s part of a concerted movement on the part of several players, or indeed the entire eleven players (if the outfield players move forward together, the keeper needs to move forward too). What you call "safety first" tactics by a midfielder in a situation where one player makes a run, may just reflect the midfielder''s recognition that the run is down a blind alley (e.g. because nobody else is moving in concert). There''s a difference between not doing something for safety first reasons, and not doing it because it''s chances of bearing fruit are negligible. 

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[quote user="norfolkngood"]i Agree King C i hate this new safety First football i think the older supporters and i include myself in that are used to a more up and at them passionate attacking football

there is a time and a place for keep the ball when you are 2 nill up and want to see the game out

but keeping the ball at 1-0 down is beyond me without throwing the kitchen sink at the other teams goal[/quote] In most cases, "passionate attacking football" simply is "throwing the kitchen sink at the other team''s goal". And when the inevitable happens and you are caught on the counter and punished (as frequently happened under Alex Neil), it''s all the fault of the scapegoat of the season at the back!

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[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="norfolkngood"]i Agree King C i hate this new safety First football i think the older supporters and i include myself in that are used to a more up and at them passionate attacking football

there is a time and a place for keep the ball when you are 2 nill up and want to see the game out

but keeping the ball at 1-0 down is beyond me without throwing the kitchen sink at the other teams goal[/quote] In most cases, "passionate attacking football" simply is "throwing the kitchen sink at the other team''s goal". And when the inevitable happens and you are caught on the counter and punished (as frequently happened under Alex Neil), it''s all the fault of the scapegoat of the season at the back![/quote]
Spot on.
We did create chances too. Being third in the table at home shows that. Even if you include pot-shots...do other teams not take them? Is it only us in the entire league that shoots from range? 
There''s bits to tweak but generally, particularly in the second half of the season, we seemed to have our home tactics relatively nailed down. The problem is people have preconceptions from previous games and are unable to look past them and identify change.

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It’s all about picking the right time to move it quicker or just stay patient and knock it around.

Problems for passing possession teams come when players don’t move off the ball well enough. If players are still or don’t make diagonal runs into space then you usually can only play it slow and sideways.

The ideal would be to break quick if possible but if not, you keep playing the sideways (and simple forward/backward) passes until one of the diagonal runners doesn’t get tracked, then you have to inject the pace and pull the pass off. But you need players with intelligence off the ball (and the quality on the ball for the pass to connect) in order do that.

I worry we haven’t got that in the final third.

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Ashton doesn’t sound convinced by our style of play.

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/exclusive-dean-ashton-speaks-to-football-league-world-about-norwich-and-rhodes/

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[quote user="vlad666"]Ashton doesn’t sound convinced by our style of play.

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/exclusive-dean-ashton-speaks-to-football-league-world-about-norwich-and-rhodes/[/quote]

Hard to disagree with anything he said. There is going the have to a change in the way we went about games from last season if we are going to be any better, either a change in style or hoping the new players make the old style more affective If one of those two things doesn''t happen then I think we''re in for a long hard season. Still there have been plenty of seasons in the past where we have got it together against the odds and i''m hopeful for one of those.

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I think we improved in the second half of last season but we were wasteful.

First half of the season I was very critical and longed for the attacking displays of the previous season under Neil. Maybe the second half of the season was more of the "halfway house football" that fans who didn''t like the Neil or Farke approach had longed for.

We''ve brought in a lot of attacking players since the first half of last season. Certainly cause for optimism.

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[quote user="vlad666"]Ashton doesn’t sound convinced by our style of play.

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/exclusive-dean-ashton-speaks-to-football-league-world-about-norwich-and-rhodes/[/quote]Typical ex-footballer-from-another-era punditry. Not one single insightful bit of analysis in the entire (waste of) time. 

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At this point, nobody really knows how we''ll do, how we''ll set up against different opposing teams, or whether the lessons from last season have been learned.At least we have a good spine of players with knowledge of this league. I shall reserve judgement for a while!

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If you have a player like Maddison in your squad, you have to play to his strengths and last season we did. But at times, I don''t think it helped us. His name was, quite rightly, the first name on the team sheet last season and we were fortunate that he remained injury free. But I do wonder how different things would be if Hoolahan had got more games in behind Oliveira.

It is inevitable that the way we play this season is going to be different to last season. It seems that Ashton hasn''t put too much thought into what he has said and it is painfully obvious that he has formed his opinion from afar, without understanding that Maddison''s form came as something of a surprise at the start of last season.

I would add to this that our recruitment since it has become apparent that we would cash in on Maddison has reflected this change of emphasis in the attacking third. We haven''t tried to replace him, we have gone for a different type of player. Players like Hernandez, Buendia and Pukki are all out attackers, not midfielders.

I am really excited for this season. I am sure that we will score quite a few more than we did last season and we will be more than a "one trick pony" and that will, inevitably, makes us much more unpredictable and harder to defend against. We have raw pace, we have a creativity, we have a hold up man and a fox in the box.

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"But I do wonder how different things would be if Hoolahan had got more games in behind Oliveira."

We would have got less points. Next?

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No, but last season he wasn''t as good as Maddison. To insinuate we''d have been better off without him is just bizarre.

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[quote user="king canary"]No, but last season he wasn''t as good as Maddison. To insinuate we''d have been better off without him is just bizarre.[/quote] I don''t think it''s at all bizarre. Webber''s remark about becoming more effective as a team isn''t just a comment about "replacing" Maddison; it''s also a reminder that there were costs as well as benefits attached to having everything revolve round him.

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[quote user="king canary"]No, but last season he wasn''t as good as Maddison. To insinuate we''d have been better off without him is just bizarre.[/quote]

Didn''t intend on insinuating that we were better off without him and thought that was obvious where I said that his name was rightly the first on the team sheet. I was merely making the point that we built a team around Madders last season.

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[quote user="norfolkngood"]i Agree King C i hate this new safety First football i think the older supporters and i include myself in that are used to a more up and at them passionate attacking football

there is a time and a place for keep the ball when you are 2 nill up and want to see the game out

but keeping the ball at 1-0 down is beyond me without throwing the kitchen sink at the other teams goal[/quote]Sorry, Norfolk, but when were at our peak, a lot of our game was about possession - especially under Stringer. The Saunders years saw terrible football, although we always have to be grateful for getting us up for the first time ever.

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[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="vlad666"]Ashton doesn’t sound convinced by our style of play.

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/exclusive-dean-ashton-speaks-to-football-league-world-about-norwich-and-rhodes/[/quote]Typical ex-footballer-from-another-era punditry. Not one single insightful bit of analysis in the entire (waste of) time. [/quote]Is this the same Ashton, who is worried that Hoolahan won''t be able to play every game this season?

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