Do we really need everyone back in the box for corners?

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="king canary"]''Two strikers are required in the Championship. Even the Scum understand this!''

But they aren''t.

Wolves, Cardiff, Villa, Bristol all play one up front.[/quote]

So you''re happy with the number of goals we are scoring, the number of chances we are creating, the number of players we are getting in to attacking positions, etc.? I think we have seriously over achieved at home with 4 wins from 14 games. Where is the Plan B? Where is the realisation that it is not working? Time to wake up and smell those good old coffee beans!

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="AJ"]I hate this as a tactic with so much passion.

Say, for example, their corner delivery is poor and it does not beat our first man. He takes control of the ball and then..., well, he has to smack it out for a throw in at best because there''s nobody to pass it too further up the pitch.

Leave one or two up there and force the opposition to keep more players back.

I quite like the idea someone posted above of leaving 3 up top. Leave a striker and two wingers up there. That''ll make things a bit more interesting! Back when I was playing, as a short attacker, I''d go and stand near the centre spot to keep their defence as far back as possible![/quote]

Ideal example tonight of having too many players in your own penalty area defending a corner. Four Liverpool players went for the same cross and messed it up leaving Swansea to score the winning goal. All 11 players were in the penalty area, defending. That''s German coaches for you.

[king canary 7,604]

"So you''re happy with the number of goals we are scoring, the number of chances we are creating, the number of players we are getting in to attacking positions, etc.?"

Weirdly enough, I don''t think I said that did I?

I''m disputing your fairly obviously wrong claim that you need to play two up front to succeed in the Championship.

More strikers on the pitch doesn''t mean more goals. Quite often by surrendering midfield advantage you see less of the ball and create less chances.

[Alan 0]

Getting back to Hampton canary''s original point.

Yes we should leave someone up near the half way line at corners . I totally agree and have said it myself.

The opposition would have to have someone to mark him so would not leave us outnumbered in the box and it would give us an attacking outlet.

Most other teams do it and I don''t understand why we don''t.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="king canary"]"So you''re happy with the number of goals we are scoring, the number of chances we are creating, the number of players we are getting in to attacking positions, etc.?"

Weirdly enough, I don''t think I said that did I?

I''m disputing your fairly obviously wrong claim that you need to play two up front to succeed in the Championship.

More strikers on the pitch doesn''t mean more goals. Quite often by surrendering midfield advantage you see less of the ball and create less chances.[/quote]

It is not possible to create less chances than we are currently doing. The vast majority of goals are scored by strikers. That is their job. That is why they are in the team. You can have as much possession as you want in your own half and/or in the middle third but that is not where goals are scored. The top scorers are Vydra and Clarke (each with 15). It is no coincidence that they are both getting the right support. They are not left up front on their own to chase the ball aimlessly from side to side as it is passed by centre backs to each other whilst the rest of our team watch on from their own half. Can you really not see what is happening in front of your very eyes?

[king canary 7,604]

I agree we don''t create or score enough, it is pretty obvious.

I just disagree with your conclusion that to remedy it we need to have two upfront.

What we are struggling with right now is linking the midfield and the attack- Sheffield United pressed our midfielders and wing backs high, forcing them to drop deeper and leaving far too big a gap between them and Maddison/Murphy/Nelson further up the pitch. I don''t think having another striker on would have solved this.

We need to be quicker in transition from defense to attack and move the ball forward with greater urgency. This doesn''t mean long balls but where we are currently taking 3 or 4 touches before either passing or carrying the ball forward, we need to take 1 or 2. We''d also benefit playing the ball into the feet of Nelson, where he can use his touch and passing ability to bring Maddison and Murphy into the game, rather than the more aimless punts we saw Saturday. He''s not going to win loads of headers vs 6'' 3" center halves.

There is always an urge from English football fans to revert to 4-4-2 with ''proper wingers'' as if it is the cure to all of a football teams problems. It isn''t.

[Guest]

With three at the back and calm players in Klose and Zimmerman I think we should be walking the ball out from the back at bit more.

Sometimes we might get caught in possession but we would be further up the pitch.

And I do sympathise with Oliveira when he is clearly not made or built for aerial challenges with his back to goal.

But I do wonder whether we need two defensive midfield players with three at the back. Certainly at home we could change to two if we go behind.

[king canary 7,604]

@Keelansgrandad

Yes, I''d agree at home we could play Vrancic to give us greater passing range from the deeper positions.

You''re also right about defenders carrying the ball- Sheffield only had Clarke pressing the central defenders and were happy to let us play between the three of them. We started to improve when Farke noticed and started getting Klose to carry the ball further forwards.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="king canary"]I agree we don''t create or score enough, it is pretty obvious.

I just disagree with your conclusion that to remedy it we need to have two upfront.

What we are struggling with right now is linking the midfield and the attack- Sheffield United pressed our midfielders and wing backs high, forcing them to drop deeper and leaving far too big a gap between them and Maddison/Murphy/Nelson further up the pitch. I don''t think having another striker on would have solved this.

We need to be quicker in transition from defense to attack and move the ball forward with greater urgency. This doesn''t mean long balls but where we are currently taking 3 or 4 touches before either passing or carrying the ball forward, we need to take 1 or 2. We''d also benefit playing the ball into the feet of Nelson, where he can use his touch and passing ability to bring Maddison and Murphy into the game, rather than the more aimless punts we saw Saturday. He''s not going to win loads of headers vs 6'' 3" center halves.

There is always an urge from English football fans to revert to 4-4-2 with ''proper wingers'' as if it is the cure to all of a football teams problems. It isn''t.[/quote]

The whole mindset of the coaching staff has to fundamentally change. Their overriding priority is to maintain possession and, if that can be achieved, not concede (i.e. if you have possession of the ball the opposition cannot score). Their appears to be little or no emphasis on attacking, getting players in the box, crossing the ball and creating goal scoring opportunities. We send our team out with a back five and two holding midfielders who have been clearly instructed (or are just incapable) of getting ahead of the ball. We have effectively one striker and one winger in the club. Where is the competition for places? You can dress it all up with fancy terms learnt from listening to the tv like quicker in transition and greatly urgency. The method of play imposed on the team doesn''t facilitate those things happening. A few weeks ago I heard me saying to myself "I never thought I would be thinking why can''t we have a team like Brentford?"

[Mello Yello 2,289]

We leave a player up (preferably with pace) when we are defending a corner......The opposition then have to put at least two to mark that player.....and we then have an outlet when we clear the ball.....Now, how foolish or tactically difficult is it?.....

[king canary 7,604]

@Webbo

I think we actually agree on quite a lot.

We need to get more players forward and quicker- yep.

We need to lose the obsession with keeping the ball at all costs- yep.

We need more competition for places in attacking roles- yep, yep and yep again.

I just don''t see the answer as ''two up top'' or ''getting more crosses in.''

I think we can be more attacking than we are now without changing the formation- we need to allow Pinto and Lewis more licence to get forward which can then allow Maddison and Murphy to get closer to Nelson and get beyond him when needs be. The idea of the two ''holding'' players is to give more freedom to our attackers (mainly Maddison and Murphy) to get forward without having to worry about cover behind them. The issue we had Saturday was we couldn''t get the ball to them so they dropped deeper to get the ball out of frustration and left Nelson isolated.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="king canary"]@Webbo

I think we actually agree on quite a lot.

We need to get more players forward and quicker- yep.

We need to lose the obsession with keeping the ball at all costs- yep.

We need more competition for places in attacking roles- yep, yep and yep again.

I just don''t see the answer as ''two up top'' or ''getting more crosses in.''

I think we can be more attacking than we are now without changing the formation- we need to allow Pinto and Lewis more licence to get forward which can then allow Maddison and Murphy to get closer to Nelson and get beyond him when needs be. The idea of the two ''holding'' players is to give more freedom to our attackers (mainly Maddison and Murphy) to get forward without having to worry about cover behind them. The issue we had Saturday was we couldn''t get the ball to them so they dropped deeper to get the ball out of frustration and left Nelson isolated.[/quote]

You will not get anywhere when, effectively, only three players are allowed to attack. We see time and time again, wing backs or Murphy in a position to cross the ball, look up and decide not to because there is no-one in the box (occasionally Oliveira is there on his own). Contrast this with the Fulham display against Burton (how many goals did we score against the Albion?). Every time they scored there was a minimum of four players in the box trying to get on the end of crosses. Could this be why they have scored 18 times more than us this season? I think all opposition central defenders must look on their visit to Carrow Road with glee. It is time to get out and dust off the pipe and slippers and strap the deckchair to the back. They never have such a relaxing day anywhere else!

[Ray 111]

Webbo,

The follow up question must surely be, why is this the case?

It must be (is) a natural instinct for any footballer, let alone an attacker/midfielder, to get in the box and score.

So in answer to my own question, none of them can be *rsed or they are playing under instruction, I''ll go for option B. Worrying innit!

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Ray"]Webbo,

The follow up question must surely be, why is this the case?

It must be (is) a natural instinct for any footballer, let alone an attacker/midfielder, to get in the box and score.

So in answer to my own question, none of them can be *rsed or they are playing under instruction, I''ll go for option B. Worrying innit![/quote]

In my view it is definitely playing under instruction. It is worrying because the coaching staff seem to think this is acceptable and what is required. It certainly won''t result in the renewal of my season tickets for next season. I can get bored rigid far more cheaply than that!

[Ray 111]

Webbo,

When Farke was appointed I was underwhelmed but was prepared to accept he may have something about him and would learn. TBH I''ve yet to see it. I live in hope and would love him to come good but I have serious doubts.

As I''ve said before, not his fault, he didn''t appoint himself, but from what I know he lacks man management skills and that is before we get onto his tactical awareness.

[hogesar 9,657]

To be fair I think we''ll look considerably better in an attacking sense if Oliviera remembers how to play football again or we have to find a replacement. The amount of attacking moves that break down because NO hasn''t kept the ball and laid it off is painful.

[ec-p 90]

Can''t see us getting another striker in time for Saturday, so we will go with Nelson again.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Ray"]Webbo,

When Farke was appointed I was underwhelmed but was prepared to accept he may have something about him and would learn. TBH I''ve yet to see it. I live in hope and would love him to come good but I have serious doubts.

As I''ve said before, not his fault, he didn''t appoint himself, but from what I know he lacks man management skills and that is before we get onto his tactical awareness.[/quote]

I have to say that I agree with all of that. I pray that there is some sort of master plan that is going to result in a successful, entertaining team but .............. ??