Tide is turning.

[hampton canary 24]

If you have a good defence then you have something to build on, and I believe Farke has achieved this. He knows we are not good enough offensively and that is still work in progress. Players like Maddison, Vrancic, Hoolahan and Leitner will always create good openings, but how often do we see our attacking players standing still. More movement by the front men and quicker passing will help to break down any defence.

[ZLF 271]

Having been woeful defensively getting that sorted was the priority and has been done well.

Balancing that to provide an attacking threat will come as the talent in midfield seems to be there, a bit more pace going forward and a body in the box will come but will probably need the next window to complete.

[Woodman 92]

I think my main worry is if we do concede. There are days, like Brentford on Saturday, where we rode our luck and could easily have conceded. Its very creditable to have won so many tough away games 1-0 (Boro, Sheff U, Brentford, Bristol City), but when we have conceded, its very difficult to see us getting 2 or more goals to win the game. Obvious examples are the Sheff Utd and Brentford home games. Taking the lead is so important to us.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

@Woodman, I agree, but what I would add is that we create so few chances, especially in the 1st half at home. This then puts huge pressure on each chance we get. Concede and its almost as though its game over until we change it tactically.

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="Rogue Baboon"] ....... I’m really not sure which part of that you don’t get. Its really quite simple. When we play away other teams press. This opens up space for us to play in. Maddison’s goal at Bristol City goal is the perfect example of this.

At Carrow Road teams drop off and get back into 2 banks of 4. They don’t press. we can’t break them down, go sideways and everntually lose the ball. Teams close off the space, we make very limited chances.

It’s really not that difficult to work out. We have only won 4 home games, 2 of those we were losing at half time. That tells you everything you need to know...[/quote] I "get" completely what you are saying; I simply think you are misdiagnosing the problem. Instead of looking at the stats for home games won, look at the stats for goals conceded home and away: H16, A17, Total 33. So these teams which come to Carrow Road, drop off, settle into 2 banks of 4, don''t press and close off the space, nevertheless put the ball into our net as often as the teams we''ve played away (only 1 goal difference)! Or look at the stats for clean sheets home and away: H4, A7, Total 11. So these same teams which sit back and frustrate us nevertheless score at least once against us at home more often than the home teams when we play away! What this says to me is that we should be investing the same effort into not conceding at home as we do away, not pandering to a general expectation about how the home team "has to" play. 

[Rogue Baboon 0]

We get hit on the break a lot, normally because we have passed ourselves high up the pitch, run out of ideas and then get hit by a long ball over the top.

Classic counter attacking football. Shock horror, we have done it as well away from home!

[westcoastcanary 173]

@Woodman

The importance of getting the first goal doesn''t just apply to us. It''s a function of the high level of defensive efficiency of so many teams. Yes, we should be converting more of the chances we create, but as I keep saying, the single most important thing is to ensure our own defensive guard doesn''t drop. 

[westcoastcanary 173]

"How do they adopt the same [away game] method in front of their own? When the onus is on Farke’s side to force the play, to be progressive and proactive?" (Paddy Davitt in yesterday''s Pink''Un).

What "onus" Paddy? Who places this "onus" on home teams? [:D]

[The gut 0]

My recommendation westcoast would be to stop looking at the not so meaningful stats, get yourself down to carrow rd and start looking at the game. If we opted to sit back any further we will end up with a stand off with both teams sitting in their own half, and they might as well leave the ball in the centre circle. It’s already dull enough for the paying spectator. If Farke elected not to play 7 defenders and risked more than 2 attacking players at any one time when at home, we might’ve conceded less because we spent more time pinning opponents back.

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="The gut"]My recommendation westcoast would be to stop looking at the not so meaningful stats, get yourself down to carrow rd and start looking at the game. If we opted to sit back any further we will end up with a stand off with both teams sitting in their own half, and they might as well leave the ball in the centre circle. It’s already dull enough for the paying spectator. If Farke elected not to play 7 defenders and risked more than 2 attacking players at any one time when at home, we might’ve conceded less because we spent more time pinning opponents back.[/quote] Dullness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. My recommendation for you would be to open your mind and by doing so improve your vision [:D]

[The gut 0]

Nice one Westie 😊 but the best way to watch at the moment is with the eyes covered🤦‍♂️. And as for beauty being in the eye of the beholder .......comparing it to being a norwich fan is it’s like I got with gorgeous exciting girl, made her my wife, adored her all my married years, could never look at another. She might not have been perfect in everyone’s eyes but I loved her and she was always beautiful to me. Then she decided to get some beauty therapy, new haircut and fashion advice from German who has just set up his own cheap shop in the village. She keeps looking in the mirror, one minute she thinks she looks great, the next she’s not so sure. I know what I’m thinking ..... :.... WTF have you done to yourself, urghhh, I think I’d rather go out with my mates, you look awful, mutton dressed as lamb. You really are no fun to be around at all nowadays. If I hadn’t vowed to spend my life with you I’d clear off right now . It’s only the hope that you will get over this phase, like the menopause, that gives me any kind of hope that we have a future.

[westcoastcanary 173]

@the gut

Typical male reaction to discovering that the woman he thought he knew so well has a mind of her own! [;)]

[The gut 0]

Ha ha ha I like it.

She might have a mind of her own but like most other women she’s really missing genuine mates who tell her to ignore it she’s looking like ess aitch eye tee.

[king canary 7,580]

@Westcoast

You may not believe there is an onus on home teams to attack but there is.

Whether it is really valid or not teams generally view away points as being more difficult to get than home. So they set up differently. Lots of teams take the view that any away point is a good so set up to not lose and hope they get something on the counter attack. Hence why home teams often need to set the tempo and force the issue more.

Burton this season were very obviously happy with a point at Carrow Road but attacked us much more at their ground.

Bristol were happier to sit back and counter at Carrow but came at us away which helped us.

It is a fairly common thing...

[westcoastcanary 173]

@king canary

I fully accept that there is a widespread perception that there is some sort of onus on home teams to attack. That''s different from there being such an onus. It''s not written in stone anywhere, just one of those largely unquestioned "facts" repeatedly parroted without anyone saying "Hold on a minute, what''s the truth here? What''s the basis of it?  Is there actually a genuine rationale to it in terms of winning games, leagues and Cups?" As you say, there''s an element of self-perpetuation: if teams start out thinking that way, they adjust accordingly and contribute further to reality mirroring the initial assumption. 

(I''m actually interested in the whole home v away issue, of which this is only one element.) 

[king canary 7,580]

But just because you don''t believe there should be doesn''t mean there isn''t. Farke can''t create his own reality- if he wants to pick up more points at home we probably will have to attack more from the off.

There is of course a debate to be had on ''why.'' Is ''home field advantage'' really that difficult to overcome? But again there isn''t a team sport in the world where it isn''t a consideration.

[westcoastcanary 173]

@king canary

It''s not that I don''t believe there should be; I''m agnostic on that. What I''d like is a coherent explanation of the rationale underpinning it rather than just being fobbed off with "everyone agrees/accepts".

As regards your second sentence, as I said before, I seriously question it. IMO, to maximise our points haul at home we only need to do two things: keep the door shut tight, and improve our chance conversion rate. The first is well within our capability if only we give it the right priority; the second is in process of being addressed, the arrival of Srbeny being (hopefully) one step towards achieving it. 

[Ray 111]

Westcoast,

It could be argued that the top 4/6 in the premier league are the top 4/6 because their set up (style of play) remains the same home and away. So is this the same scenario in the Championship?

I suspect so to a degree. I fully accept that the quality of the players is a major factor but so is mindset/ tactics, so essentially I''m agreeing with you, especially as I believe we have the players.

That said, I also agree that watching us at home has been, let''s say turgid as well as boring.

Who sets players'' mindset, well ultimately they do, however a big influence is the Coach and the tactics he dictates.

If we are going to finish mud table'' ish, which looks likely, then tbf, I would rather be entertained and lose more and win more than pay to watch some of the ''stuff'' we are watching at the moment.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

I don''t know if this is relevant. Last season, under Farke, Borussia Dortmund II finished second, with a W16 D15 L3 record, scoring 54 and conceding 25.That was easily the fewest losses, with the team that finished top losing 8 games and the third-placed team losing six. It was also the highest number of draws.Despite finishing second, no fewer than six other teams scored more than their 54. No team got close to letting in as few, with 35 being the next best, defensively.

[king canary 7,580]

@Westcoast

Well for the rationale you''d have to talk to football players/managers as to why they find playing away different to playing at home. All I can do as a fan is comment on what I see- teams set up very differently away from home to home.

We''ve got our best results this season when we''ve deviated from Farke''s natural possession based game and played on the counter attack. However it is extremely difficult to play on the counter against a team that also wants to play on the counter as they won''t give you the space. So in home games we''ve got to work out a way of playing that combats that.

As to your final sentence- no offence but ''we''ve got to not concede but score more'' is hardly a revolutionary thought. I''d love to see the XG stats for us home v away but I can''t find them anywhere- I suspect we don''t create enough good chances at home. We have quite a lot of shots per game but an awful lot of them are from outside the box which doesn''t suggest we''re really creating good chances.

I saw a post recently that said stats indicate the main difference for Nelson this season to last is his long shots haven''t been going in- maybe we were a bit lucky last season to score as many as we did?

[westcoastcanary 173]

@king canary

[Y] Re. my final sentence, I was basically repeating what I said earlier in reply to Rogue Baboon, that demanding a different approach at home misdiagnoses the problem. We have been dropping points at home, not because we have been over-defensive but, (a) because we have been relatively lax defensively at home (fewer clean sheets for example), and (b) because we simply haven''t been converting enough of the chances we create. Contrary to the assumption of many that adopting a more expansive style at home would improve our home ppg, I''m of the opinion that it would more likely reduce it. 

So, rather than just reciting the obvious ("concede less, score more"), I''m addressing the question of how to do it, arguing that the solution is to make sure we do just as effectively at home exactly what we do away. And this doesn''t necessarily mean just playing on the counter (as witness e.g. the first half away against Brentford). All it means is doing what circumstances require or allow; e.g. if sitting deep and playing on the counter is forced on us by the opposition, then do that (second half at Brentford), but when it isn''t don''t (first half at Brentford).

[Rogue Baboon 0]

Just forget about the away games for a second. As explained a million times in this thread the home team presses up the pitch allowing more space for us to play. At Carrow Road TEAMS DONT DO THIS. They sit back and allow us to have the ball.

What do you expect us to do at home? Play like we are away? Wait for the other team to press us? Because we can’t, because teams sit back and let us knock the ball sideways. Teams aren’t suddenly going to start pressing high up the pitch at Carrow Road.

The issue is we create so few clear chances at home, which leads to even fewer goals

[king canary 7,580]

@Westcoast

What you seem to be arguing for is a team with no defined style able to adapt to any and all situations in a game. That''d be great but it isn''t going to happen.

You say we''re ''lax'' defensively at home but we''re really not-we''ve conceded 16 in 14 games which is fairly average. The issue is we don''t score enough at home. In 11 of those 14 games we''ve scored one goal or no goals.

Now whether that is because we''re missing too many chances at home or not creating enough is debatable- I fall on the side of ''not creating enough'' or not creating enough really decent chances. In games like Sunderland, Hull and Burton at home we''ve had loads of shots but most of them were long range potshots as we struggled to break down a deep lying defence.

[westcoastcanary 173]

@Rogue Baboon

Yes, play like we actually do play away, as opposed to the caricature of our away performances that you insist on painting. You''d think the Championship comprised 23 Burton''s when teams come to Carrow Road, and we become Burton when we travel.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

@king, it’s really not worth arguing.

Funny you mention Burton though westcoast

Becuse if we only at home like you suggest every home game will be like the Burton home game where we have no idea what to do with the ball because the other team are just sitting back.

It’s amazing that the people on here that are arguing against you actually go to the home games and have witnessed the same thing over and over and over again this season.

How do you actually expect us to play at home to turn our form around? The way we play away from home? Because I can’t be bothered to argue why that won’t work when it’s already been said about a million times by multiple posters.

[westcoastcanary 173]

Re. your first, no that''s not what I''m arguing. We played the football DF wants us to play in both halves at Brentford. Did we spend the first half sitting back with just the occasional opportunist counter? No we didn''t. Second half, yes we did. Did we operate two different styles? No. Did we exhibit an ability to adjust our play to the unfolding game. Yes we did.

Re. "lax", away we have conceded 17 which puts us 8th best of the 24 Championship clubs; at home we have conceded 16, which puts us equal 14th of the 24. Hence compared to playing away, at home our defence has been lax.

I absolutely agree that we don''t score enough goals. A fortnight ago, despite some improvement, our goals total was still 4 down on our expected goals. We need better finishing. Yes, it would help if we also created better chances; it might help if we created more chances, but it wouldn''t help if the cost of that benefit was conceding more.

[westcoastcanary 173]

Sorry my last was meant for kc, not you RB.

[king canary 7,580]

In someways we agree- we''re not adaptive enough at home. When faced with these deep sitting teams we''ve tended to default to slow, sideways passing played infront of the massed ranks of the opposition until someone gets frustrated and spanks one into the stands from 25 yards.

So we need to adapt how we attack- for me that comes in two ways.

1- committing more men forward. It was embarrassing how timid we were at times against Sheffield United, with only 3 players getting forward at any one time. If we''re playing a back 3, 2 holding mids and wing backs we can afford to let a couple more players attack.

2- being quicker in transition. At home we''re often far too concerned with keeping possession and attacks lose momentum. I''m not advocating route one football but sometimes playing one 30 yard ball instead of three 10 yarders is more effective.

[hogesar 9,618]

Good posts Westcoast! And King, to be fair.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

@king, re point 2...

I find it unbelievably frustrating when we prefer to play keep ball instead of trying a pass forward. I don’t care about losing the ball if we are trying something. If Maddison/Vrancic want to play a clever ball through to Murphy and it doesn’t come off it’s not the end of the world. But how many times have we decided against the pass and ended up going all the way back to Gunn?