Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Jim Smith

Taking a step back from this "webberlution" business for a moment the home form and league position are

Recommended Posts

[quote user="The gut"]Interesting Hoggy, and if only you knew my credentials. I’m not going to justify my opinions borne of my knowledge and experience to you other than to say I can also drive a forklift.[/quote] What''s the problem with listing your credentials? When someone challenged Parma, he met the challenge face on with details of his career in football. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="The gut"]Interesting Hoggy, and if only you knew my credentials. I’m not going to justify my opinions borne of my knowledge and experience to you other than to say I can also drive a forklift.[/quote]
Well I can''t drive a forklift. So there you go, you''ve got one up on me already. [:D]
As for the rest of your post, I didn''t read it so can''t pass comment. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I thought you were asking for clarity of my interpretation of “worst football” Purple. In trying to explain I compared the ridicule of boring football between success and non success. If it was ridiculed while successful I hardly think it should be praised when it is not successful. Your comeback post was to list the success that Arsenal had. That’s why I asked you about success.

You actually got me thinking, i’m not sure that the success you listed was actually accurate. The season Arsenal were dubbed “boring boring Arsenal” I’m reasonably certain is the season we finished above them in the league so I don’t think they won the league. They may have won league or FA cup but I don’t think it was a season that Arsenal fans raved about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what is the solution that is staring him in the face?

The solution, I mean, not the problem. And if it''s not achievable it''s not a solution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Good old Parma. I have no need or desire to do so. My point was Hoggy makes ridiculous comments about things he obviously knows nothing about against people he knows nothing about. I don’t tend to play the poster, when I do I, guess I have to admit that it is in retaliation. I maybe didn’t quite like that a know nothing Farkewit was having a snipe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Really Ron? Really?

Have you not read half the posts in the subject? Have you not watched the games?

Without going into too much detail and keeping it simple - he could try not playing so many players in defensive positions (generally 7 (excluding GK) in a home game) Allow the attacking players a little more freedom. Allow the team to attack at pace. Commit at least one player to attack the penalty box.

This is not new - look at how most successful championship clubs have played most of the time over most seasons. It really is plain to see!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If hogesar think nobody can have an opinion that differs from Farke, because he’s a professional coach, then maybe he and the rest of the forum should stop discussing Norwich City.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]If hogesar think nobody can have an opinion that differs from Farke, because he’s a professional coach, then maybe he and the rest of the forum should stop discussing Norwich City.[/quote]
*face palm*
I''ve said before, and i''ll say it again, I have no issue and never have done with people commenting on decisions a manager makes, players he signs, criticising performances or whatever.
All I was saying is if you''re going to criticise the entire philosophy then at least produce an argument for an alternative rather than claim that these guys in the profession ''dunt have a clooo buh'' and yet not actually provide a solutions (as Ron commented on above).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Hogesar, at the risk of following you around is there any chance you could confirm where you said this:-

All I was saying is if you''re going to criticise the entire philosophy then at least produce an argument for an alternative rather than claim that these guys in the profession ''dunt have a clooo buh'' and yet not actually provide a solutions (as Ron commented on above).

Or are you fibbing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="The gut"]I thought you were asking for clarity of my interpretation of “worst football” Purple. In trying to explain I compared the ridicule of boring football between success and non success. If it was ridiculed while successful I hardly think it should be praised when it is not successful. Your comeback post was to list the success that Arsenal had. That’s why I asked you about success.

You actually got me thinking, i’m not sure that the success you listed was actually accurate. The season Arsenal were dubbed “boring boring Arsenal” I’m reasonably certain is the season we finished above them in the league so I don’t think they won the league. They may have won league or FA cup but I don’t think it was a season that Arsenal fans raved about.[/quote]I didn''t refer to one season. I was talking about the eight seasons with George Graham as manager, when they became known for being defensively strong and winning games 1-0. And being very succesful at it. The successes I listed were accurate.Nor was I asking for you to clarify your interpretation of  "worst" football. I understood that well enough. Posters, including you, have been saying it is the worst in however long because it is the most boring to watch. For, example, then, markedly worse than last season.. I don''t believe it is much if at all worse, because I am setting no store by how attractive it is to watch. We are playing 50 per cent of the game of football well, just as we were last season. The difference is that this time it is the boring 50 per cent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Please forgive me Purple. When you quoted me, highlighted my comments and then asked is it really worse or was it just more boring (with question marks) I thought you were asking for more clarity.

I’m one of those who are setting nearly all my store on how entertaining it is to watch at Carrow Rd. I thoroughly enjoyed last season and looked forward to going to see the game, every week. This season I am now turning up with little or no hope of watching an entertaining game of football. I think it is an awful brand of football.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given the rate we conceded goals - & still weren''t scoring - defensive solidity was a priority.

Our problem is we don''t have any good Champs. style attacking players. Holt was the epitome, & we don''t have anyone remotely like him.

For me, he''s trying to build a team with fast, incisive passing. You cannot do that with a team of strangers who are not top quality.

I look at it rather like learning a musical instrument; you start slowly, & as skill improves, habits become ingrained & co-ordination increases then the performance improves.

Try to play, say, Shostakovich 2nd piano concerto when you''ve just started & the result is likely to be more Les Dawson than Alfred Brendel. The last 2 games in particular have demonstrated an encouraging nascent fluidity to our game. Just need some bloody goals.

It''s all opinion. But I reckon it''s worth persevering with. But then, I haven''t found the football boring. Frustrating & disappointing perhaps, but not boring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
See but, I was a season ticket holder last year and I thought the football under AN was rubbish, no control, poor at the back, looking tired towards the end of every game and players not really looking like they cared much for the club.

This season I’ve been to 6 games, in a couple it was awful to watch but the last couple I can fully see and buy into a more controlled football ideology. We just lack that final ball and a striker hitting the ground. Last few games we’ve even started to get that ball forward quicker.

I enjoy the football more this year but it could be that I’m not continually thinking to myself I must go as I’ve already paid for my season ticket.

I think controlled football is far more entertaining, shame we don’t have a better end product, but that’s purely down to the quality of player we can afford.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fair play, Indy, if that’s how you see it. I am amazed though. For sure there were several frustrations but for goals scored, big wins, and win ratios I struggle to remember many better seasons at Carrow Rd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know we had a few decent wins, Forrest comes to mind, but I think some people forget just how poor we were at times.

Also, AN never had any alternative when we were struggling, as pointed out we were only four points better off with arguably a better squad of players on paper!

It’s all about opinion and for me we play some good football now, not rushed hoofball, hoping to feed off the second ball.

I’d love to know if there’s a stat for chances created last season to this season, we’ve been creating a good few chances just the quality has been lacking in finishing and final ball, I’d certainly agree with that, it’s flipping frustrating.

That’s why I still question the quality of player Webber is getting in, Zimmerman aside all the others have been short of what we’ve lost, some have show glimpses of how good they could be but that’s not enough. Just my thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In those last few games last season, when we were clearly out of play off contention, I have to admit my desire to attend waned. I also seem to remember we were also playing teams without much to play for, so they were typical end of season fare - no real passion or desire to win (and probably also a fair number of players who couldn''t give an F...!).

This season after Reading, we have Fulham, Villa, Cardiff and Leeds, all of whom bar Leeds have a lot to play for, so I expect them to come here to try to win rather than get 10 behind the ball and defend for a 0-0, so we should see some better games. We could wreck some team''s seasons - and I can''t see a Farke team rolling over like some of our teams have in the past.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Indy"]That’s why I still question the quality of player Webber is getting in, Zimmerman aside all the others have been short of what we’ve lost, some have show glimpses of how good they could be but that’s not enough. Just my thoughts.[/quote]I think a lot of that is due to the budget though. When Webber arrived, the average player salary was around £28k, and with the loss of the parachute payments, we arguably can''t afford to keep any of them (or a few at best). So he''s having to replace the entire squad and slim it down to 16-18 professionals to give space for youth development. With no money, we''ve relied on the Howson and Murphy sales to rebuild the squad.Ultimately if we''re shopping in Poundland, the odd gem aside, we''ll get what we pay for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Icecream Snow"]I think a lot of that is due to the budget though. When Webber arrived, the average player salary was around £28k, and with the loss of the parachute payments, we arguably can''t afford to keep any of them (or a few at best). So he''s having to replace the entire squad and slim it down to 16-18 professionals to give space for youth development. With no money, we''ve relied on the Howson and Murphy sales to rebuild the squad.Ultimately if we''re shopping in Poundland, the odd gem aside, we''ll get what we pay for.[/quote]
So when would you expect this poundland downgrade to start affecting our ability to pick up points?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ice creams, that’s not always true is it, we paid 8 million for Naismith, with 2 million a year on wages, you dint always get what you pay for, sometimes you get conned by agent, player and club!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Icecream Snow"]I think a lot of that is due to the budget though. When Webber arrived, the average player salary was around £28k, and with the loss of the parachute payments, we arguably can''t afford to keep any of them (or a few at best). So he''s having to replace the entire squad and slim it down to 16-18 professionals to give space for youth development. With no money, we''ve relied on the Howson and Murphy sales to rebuild the squad.Ultimately if we''re shopping in Poundland, the odd gem aside, we''ll get what we pay for.[/quote]
So when would you expect this poundland downgrade to start affecting our ability to pick up points?
[/quote]It''s already started, hasn''t it?Or have I missed something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Making Plans"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Icecream Snow"]I think a lot of that is due to the budget though. When Webber arrived, the average player salary was around £28k, and with the loss of the parachute payments, we arguably can''t afford to keep any of them (or a few at best). So he''s having to replace the entire squad and slim it down to 16-18 professionals to give space for youth development. With no money, we''ve relied on the Howson and Murphy sales to rebuild the squad.Ultimately if we''re shopping in Poundland, the odd gem aside, we''ll get what we pay for.[/quote]
So when would you expect this poundland downgrade to start affecting our ability to pick up points?
[/quote]It''s already started, hasn''t it?Or have I missed something?[/quote] You''ve missed the earlier post pointing out that, for all the supposed fire sale of talent and experience, after 35 games we are just 4 points adrift of where we were last season. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Indy"] ....... I’d love to know if there’s a stat for chances created last season to this season, we’ve been creating a good few chances just the quality has been lacking in finishing and final ball, I’d certainly agree with that, it’s flipping frustrating......... [/quote] 
Last season we created a total of 470 chances averaging 10.2 per game; after 35 games this season we have created 361 chances at an average of 10.3 per match (you can find the stats on e.g. Squawka.com).
The standard definition of "chances created" is "key passes + assists", where a key pass is a pass leading directly to a shot, and an assist is a pass leading directly to a goal. The break down of the above figures for chances created into key passes and assists is:
Last season:  412 key passes (8.9 per game); 58 assists (1.2 per game)
This season to date:  335 key passes (9.5 per game); 26 assists (0.7 per game).
I.E. although we are actually creating more chances per game than last season, we are only managing to convert a little over half as many into goals.
There''s been a lot of discussion and subjective opinion on here about the quality of the chances we have been creating. The most objective measure of the quality of a chances is the xG value assigned to that chance. The number of goals we''ve scored has fallen well short of the number we could have been expected to score from the quality of chance created; it''s the finishing not the quality of chances that is letting us down. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="westcoastcanary"]You''ve missed the earlier post pointing out that, for all the supposed fire sale of talent and experience, after 35 games we are just 4 points adrift of where we were last season. [/quote]

So far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@westcoast

We''re behind on xG but not hugely- we''d still be lower midtable as far as I can tell.

Also, without going back through the XG in each game it is difficult to know where those extra goals would have come. Would it have just turned a couple of 1-0 wins into 2-0 wins? Or grabbed us a consolation vs Millwall?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@king canary
Going from memory -- I haven''t got the details to hand right now -- better finishing would have garnered more points in the majority of the games. Two examples would be Derby (A) which we drew but should have won, and Forest (A) which we lost but should have drawn. That''s 3 points from just 2 of about 10 games where the discrepancy between goals scored and xG allowed opponents to mug us. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You have to remember that last season we did score a lot of goals from range too - even though that''s a current criticism.
Nelson scored some great goals from outside the area, as did Pritchard. There were a few others too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@Hoegsar

I think it was Ted Knutson (former head of analytics at Brentford) highlighted us being in a ''false'' league position when we were top of the league under Neil due to hugely over-performing on our xg. Lots of long shots going in will have that effect.

This was the same as Ipswich earlier this season- they were regualrly having games where every single shot on target was going in, which just isn''t sustainable long term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But goals apart I don’t buy this less attacking than last season argument, we held on last year winning games which we were not in control of, this year we just aren’t scoring, controlling the game and still creating chances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="king canary"]@Hoegsar

I think it was Ted Knutson (former head of analytics at Brentford) highlighted us being in a ''false'' league position when we were top of the league under Neil due to hugely over-performing on our xg. Lots of long shots going in will have that effect.

This was the same as Ipswich earlier this season- they were regualrly having games where every single shot on target was going in, which just isn''t sustainable long term.[/quote] That''s true kc, but the shortfall I''m seeing this season due to poor finishing would be largely eradicated if our goals scored simply got close to our xG never mind bettering it. 
On the subject of scoring from outside the box, 8 out of our 34 goals this season have come from distance, 3 at home, 5 away. That puts us 13th, firmly mid-table, for goals scored from outside the box. Included in those 8 of course are all Maddison''s goals from free kicks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
I think most posters know that we are creating chances but wasting or missing them.

Admittedly, on Tuesday, Lurch in their goal looked really unassured on most things but pulled off a couple of cracking saves,

But ever since the opening minutes against Fulham, we have missed relatively simple ones.

And I think the dismay surrounds our inability to get a striker that would have taken those chances.

Srbeny has an impressive record but not proven in this country.

Of course a striker of renown will want good money but sometimes you just have to push the boat out on the chance that you can get promotion.

And January wouldn''t have been too late. Plymouth Argyle were in relegation zone at Xmas and are now in the play offs.

I would imagine that the missed chances after 35 matches affect us more overall than our opponents, and could well have seen us in the top six.

I don''t wish to sound condescending but some of the clubs we have dropped points against haven''t come close to us with the quality of their football.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...