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Jim Smith

Taking a step back from this "webberlution" business for a moment the home form and league position are

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Don''t think we have the right to expect to be challenging for the top although the parachute payment we received seems to have gone to preparing for a bleaker future.

I think in the greater scheme of things, top half of this division is the least we should expect. But I don''t, and never have, believe we are a stitched on Prem side.

With the current set up creating a lot of uncertainty about whether support will dwindle without success, I can understand some feelings of impending doom.

And I am not convinced why some think next season it will all come together.

I don''t think our last season in the Prem was good football for obvious reasons.

I thought last season''s football was entertaining if nothing else.

I think this season''s is not entertaining.

But Nutty points out we aren''t far adrift from where we were last season. But at this stage we were ready to sack Neil. But some are convinced we are building, and not ready to sack anyone.

So if that lot isn''t confusing and enough to drive the most dedicated supporter to drink then I don''t know what is.

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The ambition and objective of every half decent Championship club has to be the play-offs or better. To do that you have to win matches and to do that you have to score goals. Farke''s style seems more suited for mid table Bundesliga, not blowing away inferior opposition. As Nutty says that new found solidity at the back is something to build on and with a settled and strengthened squad it may not require such a step change in style as we think to become an attacking force. Failure to get off to a good start next season and a carry forward of our rather dire home form then it''s highly likely impatience from the supporters will creep in fairly quickly. We''ve heard all too often this season the analogy with Huddersfield. Farke has delivered the expected 1st season ''struggles'', he now has to do what Wagner did and deliver a winning team, otherwise the revolution might be relatively short lived. I believe Farke is only on a 2 year contract so at least we haven''t made that rather daft long term commitment like we did with Neil.

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It''s not bull**** Kingo.

The bull**** is pretending all this would be acceptable if we played some sort of halfway house football.

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Except that isn''t what I said.

You''re claim is fans would be unhappy whatever- more defensive or more attacking. My point was simply that expecting some competence in both attack and defence is not unreasonable.

And I said ''b***ocks'' not ''bul**hit'' I''ll have you know...

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[quote user="king canary"]Except that isn''t what I said.

You''re claim is fans would be unhappy whatever- more defensive or more attacking. My point was simply that expecting some competence in both attack and defence is not unreasonable.

And I said ''b***ocks'' not ''bul**hit'' I''ll have you know...[/quote]
There seems to be some kind of conscience at work here where you''d feel a bit guilty about stamping your feet demanding challenging for top six so criticise the style of play. Even though challenging for top six is your measurement...
You said Tigger was b***ocks. I still think this halfway house football is bull**** [;)]

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One mans ''stamping their feet'' is anothers valid criticism I guess.

Fans have expectations of their clubs. That mine are higher than yours is not something I feel any shame over.

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Fans have expectations of their clubs. That mine are higher than yours is not something I feel any shame over.

That is a fair point. And I guess ours is a club that in the main you support because you are from Norwich/Norfolk or now live there (apologies to those that chose to support us).

I would suggest that means there are more with slightly lower expectations than higher, in terms of league position/status.

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I’m amazed at these comments Westie:-

“The reason those players have now left is quite simple; they failed to deliver the club''s single most important objective, in some cases having had two chances to deliver it.

The so-called "revolution" is not about who is in the squad; it''s about modernising and professionalising every aspect of the playing side of the business, from its administration to the style of play at all levels. The fact is this "revolution" should have been instituted years ago; that it wasn''t demonstrates just how badly it was needed.”

You are a statistics man it seems - don’t the stats say that since our relegation to L1 we have been relatively successful, self funding and quite professional. Haven’t we been a good example to many clubs. I certainly wouldn’t be waving the style of play flag around too arrogantly, the only way that can be considered remotely successful with regard to revolution is that it is going round and round in circles.

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[quote user="king canary"]One mans ''stamping their feet'' is anothers valid criticism I guess.

Fans have expectations of their clubs. That mine are higher than yours is not something I feel any shame over.[/quote]
We have yet to discuss expectations Kingo. We were discussing the type of football we have played and you began to pine for some sort of halfway house football but were measuring this by what your expectations are. My point is that this halfway house football is either boll**** or bul****. Last season''s attacking football would have been acceptable to you if we were top six. This seasons more defence conscious football would be acceptable to you if it got us top six. Your halfway house football would also only be acceptable to you if it produced a genuine top six challenge. It''s meeting your expectations with a genuine top six challenge that''s important to you. Not the style of football. I would think most fans, at least at this moment, would say the same.

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Your post Purple, its about the meaning we all apply to our own thoughts, it’s not definitive.

“This accusation has been made quite a few times recently, on other threads. Is it really the worst, or is what is meant that the football is boring? A bit unEnglish even? Last season, with a squad that really should at least have made the play-offs , yes we scored loads of goals, but we conceded at a rate of 1.5 a game, and ended up gaining 1.15 points per game. We are now conceding only 1.05 goals a game.

If the defence has been improved, that is a key part of what makes good football. It may be more for the purist, and dull to watch if you want end to end action, but it hardly counts as bad. No least because defence is the basis of what makes a successful side. Sort the defence out, so the default position is that you don''t lose, and you can build from there.”

In my opinion it is the worst because it is so so so very boring. Football in my life was never intended to be that way. Even the success Arsenal enjoyed with boring tactics was ridiculed. We also need to be clear about this - the current season is not a success. Our squad is surely under performing.

The improved defence is surely debatable. Has it improved? Are the players better at defending or have we just decided to pretty much position everyone in defence (exaggerated but you get the picture). I’m not sure Farke is a coaching genius. I think anyone of us could take control of the team and tell them all just to defend. To be fair it’s the fall back position for every weakest team in every league. Look at the quality of our defenders - we should not need to play a minimum of 7 defenders in our hone games which is the reality of how we play.

The only surprise I’m getting from Farke is that he cannot see an opening to improve his own standing.

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By what measure is our squad under performing? I’ve seen this a few times now, like I’ve said before, maybe this squad is performing at its level? Even Nutty said over the term of a season the team will end up where it deserves to be!

Maybe 1 loss in 14 is a measure of Farkes success rather than under performing!

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I think there are two basic things which are causing this lack if effectiveness and sterility.

1. In my view we are seeking to play in a sophisticated way which probably only suits good quality players. Control, technical ability and guile to unlock a defence. We aren''t Man City or Barca who can pass around freelly knowing that they have the flair to create almost at will. Probably why Maddison is so important because his longer range shooting demonstrates how few from the 6 yard line we can create. I have a worry that Df is trying to be a tad too ambitious in making this style stick with a squad which is largely not up to that level.

2. Tempo. I think we could play largely as we are but faster. The Champs is a high tempo league generally. We have weapons like Murphy, Pinto, Lewis but they are neutered. It doesn''t need to be 100% slow possession, we should be able to mix it up more and use the weapons we have.

But despite this I am not too unhappy how this new philosophy is going and hoping that next season the balance will be adjusted a little more, because actually I don''t think we are that far away.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="king canary"]One mans ''stamping their feet'' is anothers valid criticism I guess.

Fans have expectations of their clubs. That mine are higher than yours is not something I feel any shame over.[/quote]
We have yet to discuss expectations Kingo. We were discussing the type of football we have played and you began to pine for some sort of halfway house football but were measuring this by what your expectations are. My point is that this halfway house football is either boll**** or bul****. Last season''s attacking football would have been acceptable to you if we were top six. This seasons more defence conscious football would be acceptable to you if it got us top six. Your halfway house football would also only be acceptable to you if it produced a genuine top six challenge. It''s meeting your expectations with a genuine top six challenge that''s important to you. Not the style of football. I would think most fans, at least at this moment, would say the same.
[/quote]
I think this is valid. If we''d turned 5 of the draws at home into wins by taking one chance in those games I don''t think people would be criticising the style of play. If anything it''d likely be seen as our best way to get top 6, to concentrate on defending well and letting individual quality get us the goals, based on our squad this season.

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''We have yet to discuss expectations Kingo. We were discussing the type of football we have played and you began to pine for some sort of halfway house football but were measuring this by what your expectations are. My point is that this halfway house football is either boll**** or bul****. Last season''s attacking football would have been acceptable to you if we were top six. This seasons more defence conscious football would be acceptable to you if it got us top six. Your halfway house football would also only be acceptable to you if it produced a genuine top six challenge. It''s meeting your expectations with a genuine top six challenge that''s important to you. Not the style of football. I would think most fans, at least at this moment, would say the same.''

Again, you are missing my point. I never said we should play ''halfway house'' football. I said we''ve recent swung from one extreme to the other.

The point is neither Neil''s or Farke''s style of football could produce a top 6 challenge in their current state. Neil created a devastating attack but left the defence so exposed that there was no chance of promotion. All it would have taken would have been a slightly tighter defensive record and we''d have made it though. I''m not saying Neil should have played ''halfway house'' football but you need to be at least competent at the back even if you''re amazing going forward.

Hoegsar in a way (inadvertently I think) backs up what I''m saying. Farke has got the defense playing brilliantly but our attack is awful. If, as Hoegsar says, we''d have scored 5 more goals this season or attack still wouldn''t be good but it would be about the 16th/17th highest scoring, which may be enough when paired with such a strong defensive record.

Oh and you can''t say ''we''ve not discussed expectations.'' You''ve repeatedly mentioned a top 6 challenge which is surely an expectation.

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I wouldn''t go as far as saying our defence was playing brilliantly. It has improved and has looked better with a back three which has become a five at times.

If it was playing so much better I am sure wee would have committed more men forward in attack with the expectation that we can defend properly.

It was a four on Tuesday but it was noticeable that when Klose came forward, he left himself vulnerable to the ball over the top. And if Hanley hadn''t covered we could have been in a lot of trouble.

Zimmerman was on the bench and when does Raggett become a Championship player? Next season even though he hasn''t played this? Or if Klose leaves?

One reason I believe we have improved is because Reed is playing right back. He doesn''t attack full on like Pinto so isn''t as vulnerable to a counter attack. That of course diminishes our attacking options.

I really don''t know what DF thinks is his best system and best starting eleven. But I think we all recognise that there must be some ability in the squad for us to be able to come from behind at Wolves for instance.

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[quote user="The gut"]Your post Purple, its about the meaning we all apply to our own thoughts, it’s not definitive.

“This accusation has been made quite a few times recently, on other threads. Is it really the worst, or is what is meant that the football is boring? A bit unEnglish even? Last season, with a squad that really should at least have made the play-offs , yes we scored loads of goals, but we conceded at a rate of 1.5 a game, and ended up gaining 1.15 points per game. We are now conceding only 1.05 goals a game.

If the defence has been improved, that is a key part of what makes good football. It may be more for the purist, and dull to watch if you want end to end action, but it hardly counts as bad. No least because defence is the basis of what makes a successful side. Sort the defence out, so the default position is that you don''t lose, and you can build from there.” In my opinion it is the worst because it is so so so very boring. Football in my life was never intended to be that way. Even the success Arsenal enjoyed with boring tactics was ridiculed. We also need to be clear about this - the current season is not a success. Our squad is surely under performing.

The improved defence is surely debatable. Has it improved? Are the players better at defending or have we just decided to pretty much position everyone in defence (exaggerated but you get the picture). I’m not sure Farke is a coaching genius. I think anyone of us could take control of the team and tell them all just to defend. To be fair it’s the fall back position for every weakest team in every league. Look at the quality of our defenders - we should not need to play a minimum of 7 defenders in our hone games which is the reality of how we play.

The only surprise I’m getting from Farke is that he cannot see an opening to improve his own standing.[/quote]They may have been ridiculed by outsiders but I think Arsenal fans were pretty happy with winning the League twice, the League Cup twice and the FA Cup and the Cup Winners'' Cup once each, defensive and boring to watch or not. Certainly happier than they are now with a supposedly starry team that hasn''t won the Premier League since 2003-04 and hasn''t got near winning the Champions League since 2005-06 and for the last seven years has been eliminated as soon as it reaches the KO stage.

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[quote user="The gut"]I’m amazed at these comments Westie:-

“The reason those players have now left is quite simple; they failed to deliver the club''s single most important objective, in some cases having had two chances to deliver it.

The so-called "revolution" is not about who is in the squad; it''s about modernising and professionalising every aspect of the playing side of the business, from its administration to the style of play at all levels. The fact is this "revolution" should have been instituted years ago; that it wasn''t demonstrates just how badly it was needed.” 

You are a statistics man it seems - don’t the stats say that since our relegation to L1 we have been relatively successful, self funding and quite professional. Haven’t we been a good example to many clubs. I certainly wouldn’t be waving the style of play flag around too arrogantly, the only way that can be considered remotely successful with regard to revolution is that it is going round and round in circles.[/quote]
I''ve no issue with that highlighted sentence, indeed I''ve posted precisely the same on many occasions. The post you quote was replying to GP''s Beard; I was pointing out that where we -- and the players he referred -- are now, is a direct consequence of our - and their -- failure to achieve what all that relative success and prudent financial management was intended to deliver -- an established seat at the EPL table. That was the explicit objective of McNally''s original 7-year plan drawn up right at the start of the period we are talking about. Everything the club has done since then has been aimed towards that objective and in that sense has ended in failure.

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Farke''s latest video demonstrates he knows exactly what the problem is, he described several points when we had opportunities but nobody with the instincts to be there to put the ball away.

Knowing the problem & finding a solution are two different matters however. That is Farke''s next challenge, & he is only too well aware of it.

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Paul Lambert played whatever football it took to get the club promoted.

Farke is one dimensional and rigid. That won''t cut it.

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You focus on Arsenal’s success and their fans Purple.

I will focus on ours.

I think you’ve gone off at a tangent. I made a brief reference comparing the ridicule of boring football when it was successful.

The football we are watching is dreadfully boring and is not successful, unless of course our aim this season was to ensure we were not relegated. If not, in what way does this season look like success?

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I’m not sure what you do mean Westie. I was replying to your comment :-

The fact is this "revolution" should have been instituted years ago; that it wasn''t demonstrates just how badly it was needed.”

I have to say I’m glad we did not employ this revolution years ago! When exactly do you and your stats think it was needed?

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So pleased to hear Farke now realises what the next challenge is that he has to face. Didn’t take too long. As for the solution - we’ll it is staring him in the face, there are a fair few fans who can give him a bit of a clue. Perhaps he might also want to watch some highlights of the championship for last ten years.

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[quote user="The gut"]You focus on Arsenal’s success and their fans Purple.

I will focus on ours.

I think you’ve gone off at a tangent. I made a brief reference comparing the ridicule of boring football when it was successful.

The football we are watching is dreadfully boring and is not successful, unless of course our aim this season was to ensure we were not relegated. If not, in what way does this season look like success?[/quote]I haven''t anywhere said this season has been a success. To decide that would involve taking account of all sorts of factors, including a sharp downsizing, necessitated and exacerbated by the failure of the oh so exciting football we played last season. I think in the longer run it may be seen at having been a necessary step in a longer term plan, and so a success in that sense.My point was a simple, if crude, one. Probably best summed up in this way. Last season we could attack but not defend. This season we can defend but not attack. Defence and attack are the two basic parts of playing football. So we did one well last season and one well this To me that means we are, roughly speaking, playing as well as last season. That the football may be boring doesn''t figure in what I was saying.

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[quote user="The gut"]So pleased to hear Farke now realises what the next challenge is that he has to face. Didn’t take too long. As for the solution - we’ll it is staring him in the face, there are a fair few fans who can give him a bit of a clue. Perhaps he might also want to watch some highlights of the championship for last ten years.[/quote]
See, I can accept reasonable criticism from the likes of King Canary.
But this smacks of Dave the forklift driver in Fakenham thinking he knows considerably better than a set of professional coaches.

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Webber has delivered 2 things

1) the worst negative football I can remember even makes what we watched under the rodent as exciting

2) a league finish below Ipswich which must be the first in a lifetime

The basic offering from the club is completely unacceptable and he along with Delia and family must pay the price

Delia out stinking rich Chinese owner in

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Interesting Hoggy, and if only you knew my credentials. I’m not going to justify my opinions borne of my knowledge and experience to you other than to say I can also drive a forklift.

I tend to ignore your comments because it is abundantly clear you do not have much of an idea of football. However, if you want to put your head above the parapet to take a cheap shot you should consider what ammunition you have and how good your cover is.

If I stick my columbo head on for a minute and not bother with real detective work I think I can ascertain that you do not play, you have not been coached, you have not coached and you have not managed. I recall a recent comment when you thanked Parma for instructional post and how you had learned from him. Also confirming your own lack of knowledge or experience.

If you have something valuable to say about the tactics and how to resolve some issues you should say them. If you cannot think of anything yourself perhaps you could take some advice from Parma, maybe morty, or even phone up canary call and ask Butler.

Try and be as funny as you like but there is no way you, not you, should try and engage in a debate about football.

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