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andrew norwichcity

Vrancic and his one assist

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I might agree with you BYG had this been August or September.

But the new teammates thing within a new league is a bit of a stretch end of November when he also had a pre-season to get to know the players and who he spends time with every day in training.

Would a decent player not be able to adapt to his surroundings also? Maybe we all want him to be good and simply he just isn''t suited to the Championship.

As a side, he does seem to be getting an unfair amount of negativity though. Maybe this could be aimed at the HC and his tactics rather than just one player.

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@Bethnal

Vrancic takes quite a few set pieces also.

However, yes I acknowledge he has been decent when it comes to making chances as I argued earlier in the thread. I just don''t think he does enough in the rest of his game to justify his position.

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Yeah, I would agree with that statement to be fair.

I was throwing in the chances created stat as a bit of context to the OP which was using ''Vrancic''s one assist'' as a stick to beat him with.

I thought Vrancic would work better in the 4-1-4-1 as deployed against Barnsley (his best performance was probably the one versus QPR when he was in a similar role in a similar formation). But think it will be hard for him and Maddison to play in the same team as they are both looking to occupy similar positions and do similar things.

Vrancic was often played in a Pirlo role in the teams he played for in Germany. Deeper in midfield allowing him more time on the ball and could use his passing range to greater affect. I think to play this for Norwich he''d need someone like Tettey alongside him to do a breaking up and obstructing role. While Vrancic isn''t lazy (Farke pointed out he was among the top players for distance covered v Barnsley) he isn''t going to be jumping into tackles or breaking up play. He reminds me a lot of David Fox - elegant on the ball, but needed support off it.

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Could he work at the base of a diamond if given some hard working central mids to take the slightly wider roles in a similar way to how Fox played under Lambert? Not like our wide players are exactly setting the world on fire now so I wouldn''t be worried about dropping them.

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I don''t rate Vrancic.

But I''ve said from very early on that only one from Maddison, Hoolahan and Vrancic can play. 2 from 3 hasn''t, and will not work.

And playing either side of that one, needs to be pacy direct players such as Watkins and Wildshut. Possibly Pritchard too. But it could be that Pritchard needs adding to the mix above, and fights the other 3 for the one place.

The only way I can see it being different is if Maddison drops deep and plays next to Trybull or Tettey. None of the others are good enough or capable to play the deeper role.

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@KingAppreciate that King, just think he could be a valuable squad member as the season goes on and shouldn''t be written off too early. Farke needs to work out how to use him to greatest effect and play him accordingly.Apples

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@Apples

I think he can be useful squad player. My issue is simply that it seems to get the best out of him we either have to play someone else out of position (Maddison) or switch the formation and I''m just not sure he''s good enough to deserve all that.

Saying that with results not going our way right now it could be worth a shot.

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[quote user="Mr Apples"]@KingAppreciate that King, just think he could be a valuable squad member as the season goes on and shouldn''t be written off too early. Farke needs to work out how to use him to greatest effect and play him accordingly.Apples[/quote]I would have thought that would have been thought through BEFORE he was signed.- given that the squad is assembled on the basis of requirements, not just who is availableRhubarbs

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@rhubarb

Well yes but people can be wrong about these things. Remember Wes was firstly used as an inaffective, lightweight left midfielder by the manager who signed him before Lambert worked out how to use him best.

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I think he''s a good player but I''ll also say that recently all our attacking mids have struggled to create many opportunities for others and shine - which I think is partially due to a lack of movement from teammates.
He''s been pretty anonymous in some games, good in others. I wouldn''t say he''s ever had a terrible game for us as of yet.
I like the idea of playing him deep alongside Tettey. A lot of his decent passes have come from deep and set us up on the counter.

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@RhubarbOr perhaps a player can be signed for one purpose and found to be more effective/useful elsewhere when integrated into the squad of existing players?Apples

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[quote user="Mr Apples"]@RhubarbOr perhaps a player can be signed for one purpose and found to be more effective/useful elsewhere when integrated into the squad of existing players?Apples[/quote]
Go away Apples. Go watch some Tennis.

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[quote user="king canary"]@rhubarb

Well yes but people can be wrong about these things. Remember Wes was firstly used as an inaffective, lightweight left midfielder by the manager who signed him before Lambert worked out how to use him best.[/quote] I think that he was actually a ''winger'' as was Holt until he came here (I am reluctant to use the term wide player)My though is that Farke''s ideas are too rigid at the moment. The opposition is not closing us down in the final third but more a case of filling their box. We can pass as much as we want side ways outside the box but it makes it hard to get a clear shot in.My suggestion is that we need to break quicker, take more risks and look for what I term the chaos ball ie hit into the box where any mishit allows a shot tap in etc. At the moment shots are either going wide/over or being easily held by their keeper.Let the players play, let them find the natural position. It is football not battleships.(Chris Sutton)

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@Rhubarb

Yep, agree with all of that.

The slow and rigid build up is very easy to defend against by just sitting deep and packing the penalty area. We saw it early on v Sunderland and we''ve not found an answer to it outside of ''score the first goal.''

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[quote user="king canary"]@Rhubarb

Yep, agree with all of that.

The slow and rigid build up is very easy to defend against by just sitting deep and packing the penalty area. We saw it early on v Sunderland and we''ve not found an answer to it outside of ''score the first goal.''[/quote]That rather fell apart on SaturdayIf you watch Marley Watkins hereYou will see that he scores like Holt by just getting the ball and ''going for goal''This is the championship. which can be rather ''robust (ask Maddison) - we need to fight fire with fireGet back the spirit of Lambert (and AN) and let the player''s play. How many times did we see a last few minutes ''chaa -aarge'' when we threw everything bar the kitchen sink at the opposition.Look at the goals scored last season and you will see they were all too often from a quick break, get the ball as near to the box and fimnish it off.  We are giving the opposition far too much time to regroup at the moment.Fark possession get the ball in the danger areas as quick as possible.

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I do think the style Farke likes can work at this level- however it does mean that once we get to the edge of the penalty box we need to up the tempo of our passing. I think with a fully fit Nelson, Pritchard and Maddison we can do this. However with two of those three having spent significant time on the treatment table we should have been doing more to adjust to the players we did have.

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There is something to be said for ''going for it''. our goal on Saturday came from a rather hopeful ball into the box from out wide by Oliveira.

As has been said, its very easy for teams to get back and defend while our possession-based approach creeps closer to the opponents'' box.

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@Woodman

I agree. You''ve got to mix it up and if we aren''t creating enough through our preferred method we need to try other things.

I find it funny that people get frustrated with Nelson having some hopeful potshots- I''m sure if we were creating a few more regular chances he wouldn''t feel the need to take on a shot like that.

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Norwich are a team who take a LOT of low quality shots. Lots of attempts from outside the box with little chance of actually being scored. This either comes from a tactical decision from Farke to go for long shooting, from player habits (we all know Nelson loves a long shot, as does Maddison and Murphy) or from the fact they can''t work better shooting positions.

I would guess it is mostly a mixture of the last two, as most modern coaches try to discourage a high level of long ranged shots. Having technical players like Maddison, Vrancic, Pritchard and Wes should help a team work the ball through even crowded defences, but for whatever reason that isn''t really working right now, at least not consistently.

Gaining this understanding in the final third to be able to work through opposing teams is probably the hardest element to coach, and usually takes a considerable time to achieve - as it requires a huge level of understanding between players. You need to know a player is going to make a run and pass the ball into the area he will be arriving in, that doesn''t come over night - or even over the period of few months. Holt and Hoolahan developed an almost sixth sense for where each other were going to be, but it took a big chunk of the season in League One for that to develop.

The fact Norwich have been better on the road, counter attacking, is no coincidence. If the attacking players can build a clear understanding with each other, then Norwich should hopefully be able to start producing in front of goal.

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[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]Norwich are a team who take a LOT of low quality shots. Lots of attempts from outside the box with little chance of actually being scored. This either comes from a tactical decision from Farke to go for long shooting, from player habits (we all know Nelson loves a long shot, as does Maddison and Murphy) or from the fact they can''t work better shooting positions.

I would guess it is mostly a mixture of the last two, as most modern coaches try to discourage a high level of long ranged shots. Having technical players like Maddison, Vrancic, Pritchard and Wes should help a team work the ball through even crowded defences, but for whatever reason that isn''t really working right now, at least not consistently.

Gaining this understanding in the final third to be able to work through opposing teams is probably the hardest element to coach, and usually takes a considerable time to achieve - as it requires a huge level of understanding between players. You need to know a player is going to make a run and pass the ball into the area he will be arriving in, that doesn''t come over night - or even over the period of few months. Holt and Hoolahan developed an almost sixth sense for where each other were going to be, but it took a big chunk of the season in League One for that to develop.

The fact Norwich have been better on the road, counter attacking, is no coincidence. If the attacking players can build a clear understanding with each other, then Norwich should hopefully be able to start producing in front of goal.[/quote]Whilst you appear to be agreeing with my thoughts re our attack. I have to disagree with the latter.Many of Holt''s goals were due to his being able to finish, irrespective of who put the ball to him.Holt goalsCertainly players develop an empathy (MacDougall/Boyer) but that is more in knowing that the other one will score. It is also percentages. The more the ball is in and around the box the more likely they are to score.Farke''s mindset about keeping possession is what is holding the players back. Look at the risky stuff at goal kicks with Gunn not getting the ball forward, If we are tip tapping it about then losing it in their third we might just as well punt it up field from a goal kick.Look at those goals from Holt and count how many were down to players being in the ''right station'' or perhaps had been moved 5 yards etc.Football is a very fluid game. I doubt you can spot any goal where the players of either side were in their ''formation'', they were not. It doesn''t exist once the game starts.It is down to where the opposition players are and where the ball is not some rigid cricketing outfield as some imagine it..

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This possession based football thing is great when you''ve got superior players to the opposition and it sits on a rock solid defence. We have neither, real possession football is not the opposition allowing us to pass it about in our own half until we cock it up.

Vrancic is a average technical footballer you can see glimpses of it, but he doesnt look suited to championship bustle and intensity at all. Hope i''m wrong but i cant see him coming good anytime soon, (hopefully that will cue a worldy performance tonight).

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DF did say right from the start that he would be playing a possession, keep it/defend first style of football but we would not be disappointed because this didn''t mean it would detract from our ability to attack.

I guess he is sill convinced we have the personnel to achieve this. Personally I don''t think even Pritchard will necessarily finish off the jigsaw.

As others have said, the potential of Murphy and Wildschut has yet to be realised and getting the ball into the box, with enough there to threaten, is becoming a problem away as much as at home.

Let''s hope tonight sees the first big change from the passing for passing sake.

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[quote user="keelansgrandad"]DF did say right from the start that he would be playing a possession, keep it/defend first style of football but we would not be disappointed because this didn''t mean it would detract from our ability to attack.

I guess he is sill convinced we have the personnel to achieve this. Personally I don''t think even Pritchard will necessarily finish off the jigsaw.

As others have said, the potential of Murphy and Wildschut has yet to be realised and getting the ball into the box, with enough there to threaten, is becoming a problem away as much as at home.

Let''s hope tonight sees the first big change from the passing for passing sake.[/quote]

I find Wildschut more frustrating than Vrancic if i''m honest. The guy should be causing havoc but he cant shoot or cross to save his life. If you played Wildschut every game over a 46 game season i think you''d see 5-6 great games where he''d look amazing and the rest he''d be making a pigs ear of the attacking situations.

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