Jump to content
Note to existing users - password reset is required Read more... ×
Sign in to follow this  
Parma Ham's gone mouldy

Parma’s Tactics Masterclass 18

Recommended Posts

A repeated criticism of Farke on this forum has been that the playing system he is trying to implement - and by extension the foundations of the new club-wide philosophy incorporated by Webber et al for youth to 1st Team - is too complicated, requires too much tactical flexibility, is in essence too foreign for our limited players, Country, English Championship culture.

Much of the recent focus has been in finances, where - it must be said - positivity and silver linings are very hard to come by. This Masterclass therefore looks over the horizon to what could the promised land of the vision looks like and hands over to Juanma Lillo - an innovator and disciple of Positional Play, which may be a template future vision - to offer a counter view to the thoughts that ‘it won’t work here, with our league’

“Those that have succeeded in playing this way have also succeeded in making most people in football fall into the easy trap of believing that to succeed with the positional system it’s vital to possess only “great” footballers. The contrary seems true to me. People are confusing the possible with the probable...

...The Coach can train with the probable in mind and try to increase his team’s probabilities or winning. But the possible? That a donkey might fly is possible but very improbable.And there are a thousand other examples of things that are possible, it very improbable.”

What Positional Play is trying to achieve is to significantly increase the likelihood of winning specifically via the style of play (alone).

“That is demonstrably true, it not only with exceptional football teams. It also applies to much more modest sides...because it has been associated with Cruff’s Ajax or Pep’s Barca, people conclude that to operate it you require exceptional players. ..in actual fact other playing models do absolutely require great players (but not Positional Play).

For example winning by playing two-touch football, where a central defender fires the ball three quarters of the pitch to a centre forward, is very unlikely to succeed. Winning when just a couple of players take a touch or two each is far less likely than Positional Play to be successful.

“All this confusion means that instead of people preaching that with Positional Play you increase the probability of winning, the refrain has become that you shouldn’t bother unless you possess truly great fottballers. It it’s just the contrary. The concept is that trying to win with only two or three players intervening in each attack, each using just two touches of the ball, it’s a miracle if you succeed. If people tell me there have therefore been many miracles, I’ll tell them yeah, it’s teams have pinned their hopes on this miracle, then they may achieve it (though either way it is random luck).

‘Anyone who claims that Positional Play only works if played by truly great footballers is really only interested in avoiding the difficulty of implementing this complex philosophy’ - Juanma Lillo

Parma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks Parma,

interesting read. I disagree, however, with the idea that any player can play the positional play philosophy, well.

When Hughton was manager he was trying to implement a structured and some suggested, mature philosophy to the team. This involved the team moving up as one unit, maintaining possession and occupying the field of play. However, this philosophy, in my opinion, could not be implemented with the players at his disposal. Certain players fit philosophies better than others.

I would say the same is happening with Farke now.

However, what I am yet to hear/see is what the actual philosophy and, as such vision, that Farke has for the team.

Is it a true Positional Play philosophy based on ball retention only, or does he see a progression to faster movement and less sluggish attacking intent?

Your thoughts would be welcome.

Snake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Snake,

Pep Guardiola had a pretty pithy response when asked the same question, he commented that to define Positional Play as possession for possession’s sake as ‘Total Shit’. It is designed to increase the chances of winning, nothing more, nothing less.

As Donald Trump knows well however, if you repeat a statement often enough, on a wide enough platform, mere repetition is often to define a new ‘truth’. Typically such a statement dismisses the different, hard to implement or intellectually challenging, precisely because it cannot be reduced to black-white simplicities which many rely on.

In the case of Positional Play the concept is not so complicated, nor does it rely on a miraculous Total Football player by technically-gifted, intellectual giants. Rather it owes much to the tactical concepts quite common to handball, basketball and Chess; namely that of structural solidity allowing penetration, an ongoing interconnection between all players founded on overloading the opposition in certain areas to create space elsewhere, that is then exploited to score a goal.

On occasions it can be characterised as ‘constructive bunching’, the opposite of what many were taught at school, and requires the vast majority of the effort, thought and running to be implemented by those without the ball. This requires players to concentrate far less on themselves, the ball and their supposed position, rather to put themselves into the mind of the player and what he wants or needs. The aim is to move the opposition, rather than the ball per se. You are looking to construct movements as a units that create 2v1 opportunities in your favour in key areas of the pitch.

In this way tactical formations, whilst nominally useful to demonstrate certain possible scenarios on the pitch that we are trying to create, are largely a redundant paper exercise. Fluidity of thought and movement are far more important. Some key positions and structures will always remain key, though they will almost certainly not be covered by the same player in all scenarios. 442 can become 235 or return to a 343 in the space of a single attack. Players need to think beyond meaningless formations and focus on the requirements of the space, ball, teammates and opposition. It has been called ‘the death of the formation’ and can learned just as easily as anything else by those open-minded enough.

Parma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="FenwayFrank"]Parma’s posts are becoming the spinal tap of football forums[/quote]speaks up the small boy looking at the Emperor''s new clothes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"442 can become 235 or return to a 343 in the space of a single attack.

Players need to think beyond meaningless formations and focus on the

requirements of the space, ball, teammates and opposition.
It has been

called ‘the death of the formation’ and can learned just as easily as

anything else by those open-minded enough."mind you he does almost touch on reality with that - unfortunately his passion for over egging things cannot stopwhat he is basically saying is football is football, not some game of battleshipsthough I do still think it is some huge send up  a bit like Mornington Crescent on ISIHAC (radio) where the witless nod alongoblivious to the fact they are being sent up

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I actually thought that Naismith would be a great signing for us. His three quarter, fluid positioning style, excellent off-field character references and ability to score goals running beyond from deep, coupled with a passionate will to win looked ideal for us. As with Klose we needed him in the summer to adjust, but that Naismith hasn’t worked out isn’t as damning in my view as ending up with arguably 8 number 10s (or wide-ish non-defending forward players) of whom only one or two maximum could ever really play (Wes, Naismith, Pritchard, Canos, Murphy, Murphy, Maddison, Wildschut) without compromising our defensive structure. As it repeatedly did.

Parma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“mind you he does almost touch on reality with that - unfortunately his passion for over egging things cannot stop”

Ha ha ha ha ha, unbelievable lack of self awareness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Recent slight signs of improvement confirm we have just started this transformation. Work in process usage stopped too soon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Any suggestions as to a club that isn''t a ''work in progress'' ?ie it is the finished article, so improvement or change whatsoever

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rhubarb wrote the following post at 20/12/2017 6:48 PM:

“ie it is the finished article, so improvement or change whatsoever”

WTF is that supposed to mean you drunken clown!🐓

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Rhubarb"]"That a donkey might fly is possible"err, no it is not[/quote]Err - you can''t have seen Shrek!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Badger wrote the following post at 21/12/2017 8:48 AM:

Rhubarb wrote:

"That a donkey might fly is possible"

err, no it is not

Err - you can''t have seen Shrek!

I’m sure he’s seen a few pink elephants flying over the years!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]Is alcoholism some sort of joke now then?[/quote]NoPoor Von Crank keeps getting caught out lying , so all that is left is to claim that I am some elderly alcoholic living in FranceWhich coming from Von Crank you don''t need any guess as to the veracity of any of that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Woodman,

Fluid philosophies require fluid movement, which in turn requires fluid-thinking players, which in turn requires intelligence and an ability to think beyond meaningless boxy formations. Many cannot do this. England has particularly guilty of this flaw, as positions have mostly been understood in the context of a rigid 442 template.

Anything that makes players, fans or coaches think in rigid positions, actions, movements or thoughts is by definition not fluid.

My terminology was deliberate, as fluid-moving three quarter player is not a midfielder in the sense that Alex Tettey is, or Wes Hoolahan is, or James Maddison is, or Alex Pritchard is.

In Europe all of these players would have an individual definition, understood clearly by coaches and fans alike, and would not be confused with the fluid, three quarter attacking role performed by (say) a Jacob Murphy, which is nothing like the roles performed by the others listed.

Parma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yes, I am sure that is what goes through a players mind as he wins or gets possessionam I now a fluid player and if so what role should I play ?that''s the most important part a roleas expressed by that early Elizebethan football coach Bill Shankleyspeare"All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and (sometimes) women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many partsDepending on who is injured or suspended "

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Rhubarb"]yes, I am sure that is what goes through a players mind as he wins or gets possessionam I now a fluid player and if so what role should I play ?that''s the most important part a role[/quote]
Problem is, you''re an egotistical boring Ipswich obsessed old man living presumably somewhere around Norwich. Parma is actually a relatively experienced coach at a high level of football, as well as working for our club directly in the past. So when you try to take the p*ss, it''s quite embarrassing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="Rhubarb"]yes, I am sure that is what goes through a players mind as he wins or gets possessionam I now a fluid player and if so what role should I play ?that''s the most important part a role[/quote]
Problem is, you''re an egotistical boring Ipswich obsessed old man living presumably somewhere around Norwich. Parma is actually a relatively experienced coach at a high level of football, as well as working for our club directly in the past. So when you try to take the p*ss, it''s quite embarrassing. 
[/quote]

Thanks for reading my posts but sorry to correct you but you are way out on all that I''m afraidThat the above stuff by Parma is a wind up is not determined by my supposed status eitherSo stop upsetting yourself and stop reading my posts if they cause you so much displeasureI''m sure a young man like you has other outlets for his frustrations

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Parma,

do you not think that there is a danger that players are being coached to try and become all things to all men? Are we asking them to do too much, which inturn can stifle natural abilities?

I bring the case of the ''Wingback'' for example. A wide player being asked to defend and attack with equal competence. Expected to be fit enough to run the length of the pitch to create overlaps attacking, then retreat at break neck speed to defend.

This is a simplification I know, but I have seen managers trying to mould players into something they are not. Asking attacking players to defend like defenders. Just to fit a philosophy or system.

Therefore, is this the reason why we see many talented young players in this country, who show real flair and ability, fail to progress?

Snake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hoola Han Solo wrote the following post at 21/12/2017 10:52 AM:

Is alcoholism some sort of joke now then?

No your right, we should feel sorry for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Van wink"]Hoola Han Solo wrote the following post at 21/12/2017 10:52 AM:

Is alcoholism some sort of joke now then?

No your right, we should feel sorry for him.[/quote]It is you''re Ivon, as in you are, not yourAnd as things are winding up here early today I shall be driving back across country quite soon.I wonder if those I have been working with will be happy for me to give a lift to two of them, given how Ivon the liar claims I am drunk(he also claims that I live in France)Still, if you have nothing else than a lie will do - best hope to distract from your having nothing worth saying I suppose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Van wink"]You would be better off not driving my friend.[/quote]You are not my friend and given the ''status'' of the two passengers I think they are well qualified to decide who they think is safe enough to get in a car withbut do carry on about drinking, France etcIt does save you from having to put up a credible argument

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×