Parma’s Tactics Masterclass 18

[king canary 7,580]

Van Wink

I find City1st''s posts to vary from mildly weird to extremely annoying.

However you''re coming across as a right t0sser at the moment.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Snake,

You’ve asked an intelligent, direct question and I’ll therefore respond in kind, despite some issues it may cause with my peers.

My experience - as a coach who qualified very young due to circumstances and serious injury - is that in England there has been a distinct unwillingness to embrace the new, modern, alternative or different. There is an inherent arrogance to the English system in that - until relatively recently - it has been unwilling to explore, understand or embrace other methodologies, approaches and schooling.

This I’m afraid is partly because we created an incredible gravy train, with uneducated (but streetwise) ex-players in positions of incredible wealth and the ability to protect their fiefdom, which they duly did by employing mates, contacts and loyal followers and keeping the owners at arm’s length via a false mystique that the game could only be truly understood and operated by those ‘who had been there’. This was self-serving nonsense designed to protect the status quo.

Over twenty years ago (and only in my early 20’s) I introduced ballet concepts, yoga, Biomechanics, tactical fluidity, rondos, highly technical body-positioning techniques and early ideas on neural programming and visualisation. This had come from family members in other sports and the medical profession, plus a multi -cultural family and something of my own desire to travel, explore and learn). Unsurprisingly, it was rejected in England and ridiculed as ‘gay’, ‘a joke’, ‘over-complicated’ and ’wouldn’t be any good on a wet Tuesday in Rotherham’ by coaches. You may notice such responses persist from some.

Any players that embraced it, were - I may honestly say - greatly improved by it. In Italy and Holland it was welcomed without being considered revolutionary. Far, far from coaching any natural talent out of players, I would strongly argue that I was one of the few who embraced and nurtured it. Opening their minds contributed as much as improving their techniques, body angles and confidence. Others truthfully followed a testosterone-alpha-male-based model that tried to break players via what would today undoubtedly be called bullying, designed to ‘toughen them up’. Things have of course improved, though Iniesta - as a small, slight midfielder - likely did not have to test himself in such a way at La Masia.

Everything - everything - that I coached and was interested by 20 years ago is now commonplace at the top clubs.

In my experience fear is what holds players back. Fear can be transmitted because of poor results, because of a sense of underperforming, a feeling of not knowing exactly what is required, a fear of not being good enough, a fear of what others think, a fear of the unknown. As a coach, long before I think about set up, methodology, formation,, I want to know how my players think. Why they approach things the way they do. What fixed roads exist in their mind. Then I look at what movements they naturally make. What repeat runs they make in repeat situations. This tells me a lot. Some I fit into entirely different roles, some -that may have been overlooked - may find themselves central, some may have to unlearn previous certainties.

Far, far from constraining their natural talents, I focus on the natural movements, reactions and instincts that players have and mound them into a seamless unit. Such a unit is far more powerful than simply having good individuals. They will have to be open-minded and to grow beyond their current limits those. I value players who can think.

Parma

[Van wink 2,994]

Apologies KC. I will try to avoid him 👍

[FenwayFrank 2,457]

Parma, if you have over twenty years experience as a coach at a high level, why do you spend so much time posting on here ?

[nutty nigel 7,513]

I''m just thankful that Parma does Frank. He''s a real asset to this community and to PUPs. I''ve also been fortunate enough to watch football in Parma''s company. It was enlightning.

[JF 694]

FenwayFrank wrote the following post at 21/12/2017 5:21 PM:

Parma, if you have over twenty years experience as a coach at a high level, why do you spend so much time posting on here ?

His post count comes in at 94 posts a year, hardly spending so much time posting is he!?

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Honestly Frank? Because I am - and always have been - a Norwich fan.

There are repeated issues, problems, preconceptions and misunderstandings on this board that I can bring a different perspective, dimension and insight too. I think and hope that for some it helps and expands on what they might think or have thought.

Having had success in professional football and in business I need neither approval, acceptance, monetary rewards or appreciation. I do it because I also love coaching, which at its heart is sharing knowledge and helping others develop, if they want to.

Parma

nb: the majority of my 94 posts a year are (proudly) on Ray’s Funds, all of which are more meaningful than any of the others I occasionally write.

[ron obvious 1,501]

PHgm, have you never had any ambitions to be head coach yourself?

Although I think we''ve asked this question before :-)

Personally I''d love you to be more involved with the club. I''m certain someone like Farke, an obviously intelligent & open minded coach, would be only too willing to take your insights on board.

And please ignore the scoffing, patronising, sneering, hubristic WUMs on here. Although I''m sure you already do.

[hogesar 9,618]

[quote user="FenwayFrank"]Parma, if you have over twenty years experience as a coach at a high level, why do you spend so much time posting on here ?[/quote]

Probably because you''re allowed to do more than one individual thing a day [:)]

That, and he doesn''t post much on here. But I''m glad when he does.

[Badger 2,405]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]I''m just thankful that Parma does Frank. [/quote]Seconded - I find Parma''s threads very interesting and educative.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Ron,

I have spent the last 20 odd years in business, running and owning several simultaneously.

My skillset is probably more suited to owning a club, or taking on one of the overseeing or ‘critical friend’ roles (of which Stuart Webber’s is only one such in a broader model), though I wouldn’t rule out a Managing or coaching role if it included enough of a club-wide development element. Establishing a philosophy and maintaining it - ensuring no ‘mission creep’ as they say in the military - is so fundamental now, that it requires many fine minds all singing from the same hymn sheet. . It also requires others to define what songs go in the hymn sheet and when they need changing, updating or enhancing. Compared to players, such roles are cheap and can have a significant impact on the business

I would not want an old-school omniscient British Manager’s job, because I think that model is fundamentally flawed in modern football. No single individual could be expected to do it - or even if they could, they shouldn’t be allowed to. The lack of oversight risk and lack of qualitative ongoing assessment is too huge a pitfall to ignore (even when you have a Clough or Ferguson). A club is far, far too much of a commercial entity now to have one anachronistic ex-shopfloor overlord in charge.

What I would state - as many others have posted previously - that despite having made money, owning a football club is a huge undertaking at current Championship levels. It bears no real resemblance to even a decade ago, let alone 20 years ago. The money required to simply survive is huge. I remain thankful that we have such decent people in charge, though whether they could or would step in again today - given current parameters - is a different issue.

Parma

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

I may be one of the dinosaurs, Parma, but I would never scoff at your ideas. I think where you say "A club is far, far too much of a commercial entity now to have one anachronistic ex-shopfloor overlord in charge." may be true and this is what we have to deal with but I wish it were not true and that we could get to a position where the money was sufficient and not suffocating football as it is doing today.

So my post is more about wish fulfillment than the reality but I do think football, from a spectators pov, was far more enjoyable 20+ years ago than it is today. And while it is money than brings about the systems and processes that you describe, it is the systems themselves that are driving the fun out of football.

Consider a metaphor: When designing a car there can be only one shape that is the most efficient in terms of wind resistance or drag. Therefore if you wish to design a fuel efficient vehicle you have to keep to this design as closely as possible. Now if every manufacturer wants a fuel-efficient car then you end up will all cars pretty much looking the same. The closer you get to design perfection then the closer all cars will look and drive the same.

The same holds true for a football system. While you cannot model football perfection on a training pitch to the same degree as a vehicle in a laboratory, you can get close enough to a defined and refined system using all the sports science tools that are now available to professional clubs. And when all teams are doing the same, the result is that all teams end up playing the same football system.

Now you may say that a football team has many factors - defensive play, attacking play, home play, against better opponents play, cup tie play, to make this idea of a single system as theoretical. But while car manufacturers will consider more than just wind resistance and drag when designing a car, it is undeniable that some design factors are so important that all cars end up fairly similar.

Go back 20,30,50 years and look at the beautiful, if fuel-inefficient, cars of yesterday. Yes, they probably left you stranded at the roadside from time to time, but cars had flair and were a joy to own. They were individual and had character.

Go back 20,30,50 years and footballers were individual and had character. Charlie George played with his socks around his ankles, his shirt untucked and trudged off the field at half-time for a quick ciggie having left Billy Bremner running round in circles on a pitch that resembled a ploughed field.

None of those characters would ever get near a first team today. Kid''s going to a game today don''t get to see players with flair and character. They don''t go to the local park and pretend to be a Johnny Giles or Jimmy Bone. If they do play football they get coached into playing the kind of systems you describe at the local football club and their parents pay a fee for the privilege. And so the money roundabout continues.

So yes Parma, I agree that your football ethos produces a more efficient kind of football, a purer game and one suited to making money for the big clubs, but I''m not sure if this is the kind of football I really want to spend my hard-earned cash on watching. And one final point, 20-30 years ago British clubs had a very successful spell in Europe playing old style Clough-Shankley football against continental opponents well drilled in football-system style play. And co-incidentally or not, I don''t know, British clubs have become less successful in Europe as we have taken on board these new methods. So the jury is still out for me when it comes to systems but I definitely prefer the days when football was built on the shoulders of those characters. But as I say, I am a dinosaur.

[westcoastcanary 173]

@RTB

A heartfelt, thought provoking post, but flawed by its black or white, two horns only, artificial dilemma. For example, it is simply untrue to say that nowadays there are no, or fewer, footballers with individuality and character, or that the modern approach kills flair. Yes there are indeed many journeymen, as there were also "20,30,50" years ago, but there''s no lack of individuality and character in the Ronaldos, Messis, Robbens, Sanchezs, Ozils, Rooneys, etc. of today, and to say kids no longer kick about in the park pretending to be their "heroes" is also simply false. Fact is there is a now a far better level of individual skill all over the pitch and a lot of what 50 years ago seemed extraordinarily skilful is now taken for granted at the highest levels; but just as many individuals stand out from the crowd of their peers as possessing that flairful, inventive, creative bit extra that still draws the oohs and aah. And how anyone can describe Sir AF''s Man Utd in their prime, or Wenger''s Arsenal over the years, or Guardiola''s Barcelona, Bayern and now Man City, or Klopp''s Dortmund etc. as boringly "efficient" is quite honestly beyond me.

[Yellow Pecker 0]

@westie

I did suggest that Parma''s system (if I may call it that) will work at the highest levels of the game with intelligent and skillful athletes of the sort that you have listed. I wouldn''t disagree with a single player or club that you''ve mentioned as being able to play intelligent football within a Parma style system. Where I diverge, Westie, is that at our level and with the players that we have at our disposal it just doesn''t work.

I don''t think one has to understand systems so deeply to see where we are going wrong. We play the ball out from the back with the intention of keeping possession and try to move up the pitch using lots of short angular balls. If we don''t make any forward progress we are quite happy to bring the ball all the way back to the goal keeper and try again. We were doing this tonight when 2-0 down at home with five minutes left on the clock. There are two clear problems here.

1. we allow the opposition to structure their defence. On numerous occasions Madison and Pritchard were shooting from outside the box only for the ball to bounce away against a defender''s legs. They have too many players back in the box and we play with no width. The penalty box is as crowded as Oxford Street in the January sales.

2. we leave ourselves open to an interception through having a high rate of short passing in a small area of pitch. In order to counter this we don''t get midfield players forward quick enough and so our striker is left without service.

Our defending is another issue. Our defenders are way too static. This is down to the zonal marking system, a defender probably thinks he has taken up position correctly according to what he thinks he has learnt in training. He is not taking into account what is happening on the pitch and time and again teams facing Norwich simply rip our defence to shreds.

We know what Einstein had to say on the subject of insanity, and I felt from the very earliest games this season that there was a sense of uncertainty about our play as though players were trying to do what they''d been taught about playing the system but were struggling with it. Looking at the more recent games it feels more like the players have given up on trying to play the system and have lost faith in the philosophy. They are lacking in both passion and motivation and I put it down to that they are either unable or willing to play to Farke''s system of football.

Do you remember Grant Holt''s last season with us? Now there was a player who was a joy to watch when he was unconstrained and allowed to attack centre backs directly. But Hughton tried to impose constraints and play to a more rigid system and Grant hated it. He wasn''t allowed to play his natural game. And this really is my beef about systems, that they do not allow players to express themselves fully. The flair is subdued in the name of the structure. Now I can understand where Parma is coming from and I think he is a football purist who delights in a well-oiled machine where everything is working in perfect sync. Good for him.

But going back to my car analogy, I much prefer to see an old banger coming skidding around the corner in a blaze of sparks. That gets my heart racing. My car won''t perform at Formula one levels but its much more fun and something I can relate to at a personal level.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Valid and heartfelt posts from RTB and Yellow Pecker.

Let me clarify one or two of the points to avoid being pigeon-holed:

Firstly a Positional Play system, possession-dominant system, tactically-fluid system or quick,quick, slow Style of Play do not require exceptional players. They require players who can think beyond the immediate, have reasonable technique and are not rigidly wedded to limited, boxy movements. As in life, much can be taught. Good teachers make the new feel seamless.

Secondly my background is predominantly Italian. Whilst I had an excellent schooling in the Ajax tradition, I am a ruthless pragmatist when it comes to football.

In the previous Masterclasses I have spoken of technical fouls, shutting games down, spoiling tactics and limited weapons designed to cause discomfort to the opposition without compromising our own percentages. This could easily include a Crouch, Pedersen or Defoe. In no way does purism trump maximising the odds and resources available. I am a wholehearted believer in a ruthless adherence to moving the odds in your favour. Where this is possession-based great, where it involves shutting all between-the-lines spaces and playing for free kicks and set pieces so be it, where it involves an old-school 9, with a breaking 10 and an 8-block behind (à la Leicester’s Ranieri), then that too is a powerful set up.

It depends who you are playing, what resources you have, what the League situation is and what the overriding cultural aims of the club are. Far from being a purist, I am rather cold about setting up a team.

Parma

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]Valid and heartfelt posts from RTB and Yellow Pecker.

Let me clarify one or two of the points to avoid being pigeon-holed:

Firstly a Positional Play system, possession-dominant system, tactically-fluid system or quick,quick, slow Style of Play do not require exceptional players. They require players who can think beyond the immediate, have reasonable technique and are not rigidly wedded to limited, boxy movements. As in life, much can be taught. Good teachers make the new feel seamless.

Secondly my background is predominantly Italian. Whilst I had an excellent schooling in the Ajax tradition, I am a ruthless pragmatist when it comes to football.

In the previous Masterclasses I have spoken of technical fouls, shutting games down, spoiling tactics and limited weapons designed to cause discomfort to the opposition without compromising our own percentages. This could easily include a Crouch, Pedersen or Defoe. In no way does purism trump maximising the odds and resources available. I am a wholehearted believer in a ruthless adherence to moving the odds in your favour. Where this is possession-based great, where it involves shutting all between-the-lines spaces and playing for free kicks and set pieces so be it, where it involves an old-school 9, with a breaking 10 and an 8-block behind (à la Leicester’s Ranieri), then that too is a powerful set up.

It depends who you are playing, what resources you have, what the League situation is and what the overriding cultural aims of the club are. Far from being a purist, I am rather cold about setting up a team.

Parma[/quote]in other words you do what you can to win and play is as much determined by what the other team is doing as what you are doing, or what is needed in the way of pointsye gods !such insight

[Van wink 2,994]

in other words you do what you can to win and play is as much determined by what the other team is doing as what you are doing, or what is needed in the way of points

ye gods !

such insight

So here we have a very well explained and reasoned post by Parma being ridiculed by the most unpleasant and incoherent poster on this board.

The huge irony on display here will surely be recognised by all.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/dec/29/tactical-review-2017-pep-guardiola-manchester-city

Parma

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

And moving on from Tactics to the establishment, philosophy and - importantly - the practical operation of a devolved sporting model:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/life-after-wenger-x5587kz6x

Look at the number of senior positions, their specific oversight and the lines of communication. This is the reality of modern football.

Parma

[FCC 76]

This far into the season, I would hope the philosophy is well developed. Every time we change a player the team looks like a bunch of strangers. Surely, the changes yesterday should be seamless, with players knowing what is expected in each role.

Have we the wrong coach, who is unable to deliver a coherent philosophy?

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]And moving on from Tactics to the establishment, philosophy and - importantly - the practical operation of a devolved sporting model:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/life-after-wenger-x5587kz6x

Look at the number of senior positions, their specific oversight and the lines of communication. This is the reality of modern football.

Parma[/quote]

Think that last sentence needs to be followed by the words "if you have the money".

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

A number of points to that LDC:

If you have an old supermarket business, but now all your competitors have twice the range at half your prices because they have better supply chains and entirely different economies of scale....this is the life we (they) have chosen. Times move on, business changes, the world changes. Lamenting the unfairness of it all is - I’m afraid - too bad.

Secondly, the establishment of the kind of off-field structure here - designed to both support and (paradoxically perhaps) massively reduce the reliance of the model on the Manager - costs far less than a single player in many cases. Norwich can do this. Genuine devolvement of power to specialists is required.

We have embraced the first principle of breaking the glass ceiling of ‘letting the manager manage’, it is important now not to simply replace them with other glass ceilings of internal protectionism. Arsenal have created a structure where the vast majority of the business - and sporting success on the field note - is fully functional away from even Head Coach and Sporting Director.

They are doing all of his with huge, unimaginable wealth and resources by our standards. We must - at the very least - embrace such principles fully to have a chance of competing without such money.

Parma

[Van wink 2,994]

FCC wrote the following post at 31/12/2017 9:51 AM:

“This far into the season, I would hope the philosophy is well developed. Every time we change a player the team looks like a bunch of strangers. Surely, the changes yesterday should be seamless, with players knowing what is expected in each role.

Have we the wrong coach, who is unable to deliver a coherent philosophy? “

Indeed FCC, I know we were told by Webber that the new World will take several transfer windows to deliver, or words to that effect, surely at the half way mark of the season we should be seeing some evidence of a “style” of play that is understood and and at least on occasions successfully implemented on the field. I don’t clam to have anything like Palmas knowledge or experience but from my seat in the stand I see no evidence of a style of play that is consistent, successful or most troubling remotely intimidating to the opposition.

As the report in the link says, possession football lost many advocates after it was shown that good counter attacking football can be its downfall.

I honestly can’t see any real effective pattern in what we are trying to do and that is hugely concerning at the half way mark.

[GJP 79]

When he''s signing players like Husband, Watkins and Franke it''s no wonder he says he needs a few windows.

[JF 694]

Two or three more windows signing the quality of players that they have already bought in, coupled with the sales of any real quality players we have at this level will leave us building to try and get out of league 1 again

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

I do think that’s an entirely valid criticism VW - based entirely reasonably solely on on-field observations*

In a previous Masterclass - and shortly after Sunderland - I noted that it was ‘early for Mummy to be taking away the spinach’.

Despite the obvious flaw results-wise, I felt that there was a clear and drilled methodology evident. It is all very well re-interpreting a method for ‘the Championship’ (despite the fact that it really isn’t the quagmire, long-ball Rotherham Away on a wet Tuesday game every week anymore, Burton excepted), but players do not react well to changing fixed points. What has been drilled pre-season - particularly by new Coaches - creates enthusiasm, newness, excitement, belief (not unlike in fans) that ‘this could be the magic’. Golfers will recognise this ‘silver bullet’ Eureka moment (and know it’s transient, no such thing and no substitute for coaching and improved overall technique. Addressing your painful flaws, often against your will).

I am a huge fan of change, fluid learning, ongoing improvement, empirical assessment (both self and critical friend), though footballers are the animals they are. Clear messages are key*

*The interesting questions to ask or answer might be:

1. Is what we’re seeing what’s intended?

2. Is what’s intended understood?

3. If yes, is his our true level? If no, why not?

4. Is what’s intended understood throughout the club?

5. Does everybody agree with what’s intended? Do the players?

6. What do you do if they don’t? Where do you find those that do? What do they cost? Will they come?

Parma

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

To represent from the other thread:

1. If you are on your notice period before joining a new company, do you work as hard as you ever have?

2. If your Company is laying off staff around you, do motivation levels and atmosphere at work improve or decline?

3. Given 2, does Company performance improve or decline? Might erraticism become normal?

4. Given 2 and 3, do good staff from other Companies want to join you? What kind of person might join you?

5. Might you think about leaving?

Parma

nb: Refer back to the Arsenal off-field in preparation (and protective amortisation against talent/knowledge/function walking out the door) and ask: ‘Why have Arsenal made such a change, why have they taken such a number of (relatively cheap in football player terms) specialists in preparation for transition and structural change?

Our model has begun to change, we must follow the logic of it through. Important not to simply switch Messiahs.

Parma

[SwindonCanary 455]

SwindonCanaries Masterclass No 1 !Stop all the tippie tappy stuff,  and occasionally follow Charles Reep who concluded that most goals were scored from fewer than three passes !  

[FenwayFrank 2,457]

Quite how some of you hang on to every word from Parma is beyond me, it has to be some sort of Ron Manager parody account.

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

Alex Neil had his Newcastle moment when he seemed to be paralyzed by the fear of getting stuffed, and now Farke has had the same moment in the Arsenal game. Not the fear of being stuffed, for the German, but public shaming of all his good work being undone in a couple of minutes by a young kid. We started off shakey and Farke seemed to have turned it around primarily by sorting out the defensive failures. But Arsenal seems to have shaken his self-belief to the core and his confidence and command seems to be shattered.

• Is what we’re seeing what’s intended?

I don''t think so. I think the master plan has gone out of the window and Farke is reacting to events and not controlling them. He''s gone from wanting to win every game (full team against Arsenal)  to conserving his weapons (second string players against Burton) for the upcoming home game. And as soon as he did that the quality dropped (comparing Birmingham and Burton performances). Butron game saw us play an increased number of long balls out of defence (mainly Hanley) and a lot of head tennis in midfield.  It didn''t become more structured until Pritchard and Madison came on as subs. So does that mean you need quality players to make the system work? Parma says no, but I suggest the onfield evidence with this squad says that you do need quality players to make it work.

• Is what’s intended understood?

The  some players seem to understand farke''s system, others don''t, or at least are not comfortable with playing it (eg. Klose comfortable, Hanley not comfortable)

• If yes, is his our true level? If no, why not?

Half a season is enough to judge. We are a struggling mid-table Championship side with many issues across the whole club.

• Is what’s intended understood throughout the club?

Everyone seems on board. There is a united front when facing the public, no visible dissenters, no players breaking ranks and speaking as happened towards the end of Niall''s reign.

• Does everybody agree with what’s intended? Do the players?

As above. The fans are restless, but fans are cheifly driven by results and league position. In 50 years of following City I have never known a time when fans couldn''t find something to moan about. But we''re not yet at the tipping point as the benign AGM indicated.

• What do you do if they don’t? Where do you find those that do? What do they cost? Will they come?

Problem is, those more comfortable with Farke''s system are the one''s likely to be leaving. That means replacemets will be oveseas players who are more familiar with the system plus kids who don''t have pre-conceived ideas of their own. That seems to be Webber''s strategy anyway. Gone are the days of Naismith type signings. (Thank the Lord for that). But having supported NCFC since mid-60s it feels like deja-vue. We''ve had these rebuild from scratch times before.