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norfolkbroadslim

James Maddison - £25m

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[quote user="king canary"]I''m hugely skeptical about any ''player rating'' system these websites use. I don''t think you can rate a players performance purely on statistical output, however detailed you are.[/quote]It is always a healthy thing to be sceptical when looking at statistics especially the claims made from them however, when used objectively and within the limits of the data.Looking at the City data for this season (6 game min.) it has Madison and Pritchard head and shoulders above anyone else, followed by Klose about 7 points behind. I wouldn''t argue with that.http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings#performance-score#player-stats#english-football-league---championship|season-2017/2018#norwich#all-player-positions#16#39#6#0#90#04/08/2017#04/01/2018#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#90

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[quote user=" Badger"][quote user="king canary"]I''m hugely skeptical about any ''player rating'' system these websites use. I don''t think you can rate a players performance purely on statistical output, however detailed you are.[/quote]It is always a healthy thing to be sceptical when looking at statistics especially the claims made from them however, when used objectively and within the limits of the data.Looking at the City data for this season (6 game min.) it has Madison and Pritchard head and shoulders above anyone else, followed by Klose about 7 points behind. I wouldn''t argue with that.http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings#performance-score#player-stats#english-football-league---championship|season-2017/2018#norwich#all-player-positions#16#39#6#0#90#04/08/2017#04/01/2018#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#90[/quote]With Watkins bottom, with Husband above him - the only two with negative ratings!

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I would argue that Trybull has been up there with them.

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No I wouldn''t object to them.

I do remember seeing Bassong in either theres or WhoScoreds team of the week when we lost 5-4 to Liverpool though and also one of them rated Vito Mannone as the best performing goalkeeper in the Premier League.

They have their place but they aren''t gospel.

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England International Barkley going to Chelsea for £15M.

Maybe that is all we can expect for Maddison.

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[quote user="keelansgrandad"]England International Barkley going to Chelsea for £15M.

Maybe that is all we can expect for Maddison.[/quote]

Contract up at end of the season.

At full price Barclay 30 million JM 10-15

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[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Big Vince"]By the summer - the parachute payments will have finished and the club will be desperate to sell to make ends meet.[/quote]Chase all over again - and South - and Watling......[/quote]

But they had to sail a ship without the huge benefit of TV money washing against the hull.

The Suffolk Socialists have squandered the TV money and so their ship has run aground and they now have to sell to cover for their own errors.

City was better run when it was a tight ship.

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Who cares about fees ? The club will not re invest in players to get out of the league no matter what.

Some will go towards the pension fund, some to keep the club afloat for a few more years till it becomes someone elses problem.

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I really do think that the Pritchard situation is different to the Maddison as Pritchard cost 8.5 million pounds and Maddison was bought as one for the future.

However if we miss out on both of these players next year one has to wonder what is the point of buying for potential if potential means sell on before they have had any real impact on our club?

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[quote user="king canary"]I''m hugely skeptical about any ''player rating'' system these websites use. I don''t think you can rate a players performance purely on statistical output, however detailed you are.[/quote] Squawka and Whoscored both provide information about how they arrive at their individual player and team ratings (though not the precise algorithm used to generate the rating from the statistical input). If you disagree with their ratings, surely you owe everyone an explanation of the basis on which you arrive at your own? In utilising the kind of statistical approach they and many professionals in the top tiers of the game do, what exactly are they missing? (Not just being argumentative [:D], genuinely interested in your answer.)

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@westcoast

Because I believe there are things that can''t be measured in the way they''d like.

I''m a big NFL fan and that game is more stats driven than football. Even there though there is a recognition of a players ''intangibles.'' You''ll regularly here analysts talk about someone having a great performance that won''t show up on the stats sheet but allows there teammates to perform better.

I''m very much not ''anti-stats'' as I think they can be really useful in looking at what happens on the pitch and challenging preconceptions about a player. My issue always lies with those who think raw data with no context can give you the full picture. So whoscored and squawka don''t have somebody watching Norwich v Millwall so I don''t thing they can paint a full picture.

Going back to the nfl there is respected website called ''pro football focus'' (apologies of you know all this and it sounds patronising) who give overall grades, initially based on data. However after the games they will watch the game back and adjust there grades accordingly based on what they see.

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If NCFC were to sell both Pritchard and Maddison I am not sure we would win another match this season.

The 2 recent win have been so influenced by those 2 players, not sure when last win without either was?

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Spot on Simmo. I shudder to think where the pace and imagination will come from.

And if Pritchard goes first as we suspect, is DF brave enough to realise that Vrancic and Wes have had opportunities but been found wanting.

There is no-one else remotely near that level.

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@king canary
[Y] So there are things that an observer watching the game "can see" but which aren''t captured by e.g. Opta''s, current metrics? But calling these "intangibles" is surely just evading the issue? If the statistically generated ratings are being revised on the basis of what this or that observer "sees", we are entitled to ask what this basis is. And if the basis is something that can be seen, and seen to contribute importantly to events on the pitch, what is observed must be describable and its importance quantifiable. Obfuscation has no place in this; evolution of analytical techniques very much has.

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Yes, there are.

No, calling them intangibles is not evading the issue, its a widely accepted term.

Let''s take an nfl example.

A quarterback completes a pass. That is a stat. You can then measure the distance, whether he was under pressure, how long he had to hold the ball on to, whether he had to move etc. What you can''t measure by not ''seeing'' the pass is the qb ''looking off the safety'' ie using his eyes to fool a defender into thinking he''s throwing the ball to one guy while throwing it to another. That is why pff watch and give grades based on what they see post game.

In football I''d look at something like passing stats- we can measure completion %, length, direction etc. What you can''t measure without seeing is what other options that player had on- did they pass up the opportunity to play in a better positioned team mate in favour of a ''safe'' pass. Did the pass get played to someone under pressure who shouldn''t have been passed to?

There are so many variables in most sports and especially football that to think you can just measure stats and use algorithms to give a total picture of how a player performs without actually watching them is, to me, either naive or arrogant.

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Can I just say, having met him today through work James is one of the nicest, down to earth younger footballers ive come across over the past 4 or 5 years or so.

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I would like to think that if we sold Madders this window we could keep him on loan for duration.

How many loan players can we bring in?

I also I wouldn''t be surprised if Edwards was all part of the bigger picture, the sweetener from Spurs but get Madders in the summer???

The positive from a Madders deal now would enable funds in the bank to hit the market early in the summer, clever business in my eyes.

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He is going to go, it just remains to be seen where to, how much for and when.

If it''s in the summer for £25m with plenty of add ons then that would be a pretty good outcome in the circumstances.

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There is no doubt he’ll be off at some point, hopefully the summer and then the best we can hope for is a load of money plus either a loan back (unlikely) or some kind of up and coming player as part of the deal (likely a loan).

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If we sold Madison now, surly we run the risk of getting a big tax bill on our profits at the end of the season? As I understand it, we were projecting a profit of £2 million before the sale of Pritchard. It would be better to sell in the next financial year (which runs from July, I believe) when the profit can be used against a wage level that we otherwise could not afford.

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James, we love you soWe want you to knowThat we''re gonna miss your skillThe minute you walk out that door
So please don''t goDon''t go, don''t go awayPlease don''t goDon''t go, we''re begging you to stay ...............

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He might, or might not, be worth more in the Summer but he could break his leg or something between now and May.A bird in the hand...................................

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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]
James, we love you soWe want you to knowThat we''re gonna miss your skillThe minute you walk out that door
So please don''t goDon''t go, don''t go awayPlease don''t goDon''t go, we''re begging you to stay ...............
[/quote]

Not taking anything away from your fine lyrical effort but....a tad desperate.....maybe? Just a tiny bit....??😉

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[quote user="Duncan Edwards"][quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]
James, we love you soWe want you to knowThat we''re gonna miss your skillThe minute you walk out that door
So please don''t goDon''t go, don''t go awayPlease don''t goDon''t go, we''re begging you to stay ...............
[/quote]

Not taking anything away from your fine lyrical effort but....a tad desperate.....maybe? Just a tiny bit....??😉[/quote]Nope, sadly not.  He''s by far and away the best player we are ever likely to have for quite some time.  The sale of James Maddison, which will happen sooner rather than later, will be a defining moment in the fortunes of our once great club. [:(]

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[quote user=" Badger"]If we sold Madison now, surly we run the risk of getting a big tax bill on our profits at the end of the season? As I understand it, we were projecting a profit of £2 million before the sale of Pritchard. It would be better to sell in the next financial year (which runs from July, I believe) when the profit can be used against a wage level that we otherwise could not afford.[/quote]

That can''t be right badger, some rational and trustworthy soul on here said we were 3 mil in debt after the sale of Pritchard on here the other day. It had a whole thread about it so it must be true!

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Spot on, Making Plans: it''s not too difficult to see a scenario where we keep him, he gets injured and we''re stuck with a crock of much lesser value if/whenever he gets back to full fitness. You could even argue that selling and loaning back could well be our best opportunity of actually reaching the play-offs with the ££ it would/should make available.

It is a tricky one for the board as selling, even with a loan back, would clearly not go down well with many.

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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]once great club. [:(][/quote]In your eyes maybe. The sale of Maddison, if it happens now, in six months or in six years doesn''t define anything other than we will have been privileged to see a brilliant player playing for our club. Selling him is nothing more than what happens at any football club and the better he does for us he more he is worth. Our club is a great club - present tense - there is no "once" about it.

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