The Philosophy, the Company and the Future

[Budapest Canary 152]

I can easily agree with what Hairy says about entertaining football. For me if it''s efficient enough it''s entertaining enough. Furthermore, I am happy to buy into any footballing philosophy - that works - and enjoy to watch how it works out even if it''s not attacking or usually considered as "attractive".

That said, I have never been a big fan of the Tiki Taka, mostly because - as the OP points it out - it is an essentially defensive tactics that serves mostly to stop the opposition from playing football, (while the possessing team itself has little intention to play football). Why is that considered more entertaining than other brands of (defensive) tactics kind of beats me.

[ricardo 7,385]

To be brutally honest, playing pretty football and getting spanked four nil doesn''t entertain me.If you have money you buy the best you can afford. If you don''t have money you do your best to develop the cheaper players. A yoyo club like ours will always have the problem of riches one season or poverty the next, so the choice is bound to alternate. In a sense, its not the life we''ve chosen its more the life imposed upon us by our historical position in footballs hierarchy.It may be a minority view but whatever League we happen to be in, I go to watch us win. anything less is a disappointment.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Ricardo,

Michael Corleone''s phrase ''This is the life we have chosen'' is intended as a reminder to ''business'' people that ups and downs, criticism, successes and failures are an intrinsic part of the picture and are to be expected.

In this footballing context it refers to any resentment, moral or political outrage, despair at financial disparities and consequent sporting imbalance that any football club owner might feel towards the Premier League or ''the way the game is going''.

The ball simply has to be played as it lies.

Parma

[ricardo 7,385]

[quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]Ricardo,

Michael Corleone''s phrase ''This is the life we have chosen'' is intended as a reminder to ''business'' people that ups and downs, criticism, successes and failures are an intrinsic part of the picture and are to be expected.

In this footballing context it refers to any resentment, moral or political outrage, despair at financial disparities and consequent sporting imbalance that any football club owner might feel towards the Premier League or ''the way the game is going''.

The ball simply has to be played as it lies.

Parma[/quote]I can accept that because I have no choice.Having witnessed 9 promotions and 8 relegations in my 64 plus years at Carrow Road I am probably more aware than most that success and failure (in roughly equal measure) is likely to always be part of the make up of supporting this club. Barring a miracle we are never going to be something we are not  but over all the despair has never been enough to put me off completely because I know joy will be just around the next corner. I must admit though that there have been times when that next corner has seemed an awfully long way off.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

With your wider perspective Ricardo, do you embrace the new philosophy and its long-term ambitions or simply regard it as the branding of a new Managerial regime much like any other?

Has a rubicon been crossed and are we now heading for a long term marriage and commitment to a philosophical formula or is it just another pretty, disposable mistress?

Parma

[lake district canary 4,531]

People assume that the idea of possession based game is that it is going to be boring after a while. Well that''s not the Dortmund experience imo. It is keeping possession and adding those thrusts into attack which make it so potent.  Denying the opposition the ball and making decisive attacks, added to a fiery determination to get the ball back whenever possession is lost.  You might think that is obvious and all football teams aim to do that - but the evidence is different.  You often see teams looking quite lethargic in matches a times - and that is down to culture and habit.  Why Dortmund do so well is because their possession game has a real bite to it, as is their positivity in the way they defend - and I assume that is what we are attempting - not just lame tika-taka for the sake of it. How you achieve all that is probably too much to ask for straight away, hence the difficulties we are likely to encounter to start with. But if/when it finally gels, we should see the best of everyone and the results will start to happen. A very fit team, able to keep the ball, decisive in attack and decisive and positive in getting the ball back when it is lost for any reason.

[Mickdundee 0]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]Sorry, but no.The idea of having any more of the style of football we had to endure under Hughton makes me feel physically sick.I don''t give a damn if the likes of Pulis and Allardyce get results that way, there''s f**k all point in even watching games if that''s the dross on offer IMHO. Stoke fans started to change their view after a number of years of safety (but god awful football) under Pulis, and we all know he we felt about the $hite Hughton served up!I''d rather risk dropping to League 1 again whilst developing a long-term,. financially viable structure that provides good, attractive, intelligent football, than I would see us appoint managers like the above to play Mick McCarthy football each week...I guess my view, is more of the old-fashioned view of going to football to be entertained, and watch a good contest between 2 teams of players, rather than the results only driven ''business'' that modern football represents.[/quote]

There''s some rubbish spouted on here but this takes the biscuit

Rather be in league 1 have a word with yourself

[westcoastcanary 173]

Indy_Bones wrote: "I guess my view, is more of the old-fashioned view of going to football to be entertained, and watch a good contest between 2 teams of players, rather than the results only driven ''business'' that modern football represents."

I don''t think this is at all old fashioned -- unless you happen to be equipped with the kind of tunnel vision which sees English football as comprising nothing but the Premier League and top third of the Championship. There are 64 other clubs in the EFL at any one time, countless more in Non-League, and myriads more still at levels below that. Every single one of those teams has fans who support them. The people who turn out to watch them -- every team an abject failure when judged by the criteria of the tunnel visioned -- do so primarily for the reasons you give. They get a kick when their team wins, they don''t want to see their team beaten, they want enjoyment. Do they beat their breasts over their team not being among the top 28 teams in England and (in the majority of cases) having little prospect of ever being so? No they don''t. 

[ricardo 7,385]

[quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]With your wider perspective Ricardo, do you embrace the new philosophy and its long-term ambitions or simply regard it as the branding of a new Managerial regime much like any other?

Has a rubicon been crossed and are we now heading for a long term marriage and commitment to a philosophical formula or is it just another pretty, disposable mistress?

Parma[/quote]

I hesitate to accept that any approach is forever Parma but the new managerial regime is probably the right way to go at this time. Nothing is set in stone else I would still be standing on wooden sleepers behind the River End goal and watching the Dagenham Girl Pipers for half time entertainment.

[Number9 272]

Parma, it''s not as simple as the ball being played where it lies.

Player A creams one 300 yards down the middle of the fairway,

Player B shanks it 100 yards into the knee high weeds.

You have control over where the ball lies, the Club has, by its decisions or lack off decisions, lost the ball in the rough.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

We are indeed deep in the rough Number 9, the sensible chip out 30 yards into the middle of the fairway is not nearly as sexy as getting out your hybrid and trying to hit the green 220 yards away....

Playing the ball as it lies refers to the nature of the football world as it is, regardless how distasteful or out of our financial model comfort zone it may be. It is neither about reckless spending nor living in a parallel Pollyanna world where our moral fibre and decency will protect us from slipping backwards into football''s beige purgatory.

Ironically - as someone who specialises in the reconstruction, investment and occasional sale of Companies - it may be that the nature of the reinvention we are going through may be coupled with an increased possibility of external investment interest.

Premier money has allowed our model to succeed and operate without significant shareholder or owner financial input in recent years. Many, manybothers niw have this additional funding and the priceless ability to take repeated calculated risks with a safety net of further wealth beyond Sky''s television income. This allows for the amortisation of mistakes that may lead to Premier relegation or non-promotion years within the Championship.

As we return to living within our limited means, the theoretical nominal value of shares likely returns to a far lower level and losses are unlikely to be able to be sustained for more than a very few years. The Championship is not as cheap a place to fail as it once was.

Thus within a fairly short timeframe further investment may become more than a desirable addition, it may well become a necessity, unless we are to very severely reduce our playing staff and their remuneration. Just as prices and fees stepchange far beyond anything seen before.

Change is certainly coming.

Parma

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

In context a brave and financially ambitious move to refuse significant money for Oliveira and to invest notable new funds for Hanley.

There is clear recognition here that the Sporting requirements of the moment exceed any deferred concerns about the possible financial position in 12 months time.

Clearly necessary for the team''s chances of success, though taking on new liabilities and declining 8 figures for key assets carries risk moving forwards when circumstances change.

Given our parameters, this is quite a bold and brave move at this moment in time.

Parma

[lake district canary 4,531]

With such good assets in Pritchard, Oliveira, Murphy, Maddison and others, including the young players who might come through, it must be seen as a recognition ofthe club that some of the players we have could be sold to off set any debt that might be created, if promotion isn''t gained this or next season.

[TIL 1010 4,738]

In other words Lakey sell your assets just to standstill or keep out of debt ?

[Guest]

I believe our club will never be in a position to guarantee Prem football no matter even if a new owner with plenty of money to invest can be found. In the pecking order, I think a few years at the top table and a few watching on are about right for NCFC both historically and demographically.

I live in Cornwall and the only way I can get my fix is to hope we are in the Prem and watch streams or wait for games on SKY or BT. So that is why I have taken to posting on here regularly so that I can at least get a feel for the prevailing atmosphere at any time. And read the posts of those who watch the games.

So having to watch other teams play as well, it must be entertainment for me. I think it would be hypocritical of me to say the result is all that matters when I wish to watch others teams play attractive football without caring about the result.

Since John Bond, City have had a reputation around the country as a nice friendly club who try to play attractive if not always winning football. And I would like to think that reputation remains intact despite some turgid football under Hughton and Neill at times.

But the people who buy their season tickets are the ones who count the most and it seems to me that opinion is divided on what is best for them,.Just being City should be enough in reality. But many younger supporters do not see beyond success I suppose.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,023]

Indy, if Norwich had spent the reported amount Bournemouth spent on Tyrone Mings, this board would have imploded, particularly given that he was injured in their first game. And using the analogy of others on here, Bournemouth are in a relegation battle and look nailed on to be relegated this season (I base this opinion on their league position after three games, I know conventional wisdom is to wait until five games have been played.......)

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]In other words Lakey sell your assets just to standstill or keep out of debt ?[/quote]Let''s just call it controlling on going cash flow.......

[nutty nigel 7,532]

That ignores tge other side of the equation where we at the same time invest in assets. It''s lauded at Southampton.

[king canary 7,605]

This is going to be a bit long and rambling and touch on a few different points raised in this thread but forgive me...

With the argument of entertainment v results, results will always win out. However better football will allow you more rope when results aren''t as good- witness people being much happier with keeping Neil after relegation vs the desire to oust Hughton even before we went down. But good football can only protect a manager for so long. What is and isn''t good football is generally subjective (although I''d be amazed to find many people saying they actively enjoyed the style shown under Hughton) but there is clearly a desire to see your team attack and score goals.

When it comes to the structure of the club and the finances I fully support the idea of a sporting director - we''ve too often suffered from mass squad turnover as one manager leaves and another brings a new playing style and thus clears out the last mangers players. Webber being at the helm should mitigate that impact should we need to change the Head Coach.

Financially the model is entirely obvious-we can''t compete with richer clubs so we try to be smarter. Resale value will be key in any purchases as we aim to buy young and cheap and sell high. However this is extremely tough to pull off and requires excellent scouting and player assessment. Our budgets will be limited so getting it wrong will have a bigger impact than it will for those with more money. For us to challenge in the top 6 everything has to go just right and the margin for error, both managerial and transfer, is extremely slim.

In some way the owners have been victims of their recent successes. 4 Premier league years in a 5 year period have raised expectations well past where they were when they took over, while the game as whole has changed with championship players often fetching north of £10m now.

What this means for the fans is difficult though. As a model it means we can really only expect to see exciting talents with us for two or three years before a sale and that money won''t all be going back into the squad. If we don''t go up this season I''d expect to see at least two of Nelson, Pritchard, Josh and Maddison sold. I''ll admit I''ve been surprised and frustrated by the speed that we''ve gone from a team who could cherry pick their targets to one who can''t compete financially with a good 50% of the division at least.

For fans it is going to be tough to stomach, especially if we have seasons of struggle nearer the bottom than the top of the league. Our ticket prices are still pretty high so fans will begin to wonder why they should still invest their hard earned cash to watch a team that doesn''t compete and to watch players who will likely be sold if they perform well.

The owners need to be wary of this as unlike in the League One era I can sense a level of apathy amongst our fan base that is new in my 15 years of being a season ticket holder. A couple of down years and I can see crowd numbers falling off.