Nelson Oliviera

[hogesar 9,615]

The thought of him leaving in the window had some on here claim he''s the best striker in the league, has to start every game and is infinitely better than donkey Jerome.

I think last night against a poor championship team indicated quite clearly the gap between him and Jerome is minimal and as strikers should be rotated to suit the opposition.

Like Saturday, Nelson won approximately 0 aerial challenges, was shrugged off the ball and on top of that, on the rare occasions we built up a little pressure he''d shank a shot with his left foot from 30 yards into the crowd.

What''s interesting is with our fans, had Jerome had a similar game he''d have been getting pelters from the crowd. Nelson''s strike rate over the last two games must be approx 1 in 15. 

For me, yesterday was much more a Jerome style game but I get the feeling he isn''t 100% fit at the moment.

Nelson is a good player, but he''s not outstanding.

[canarydan23 4,060]

I think Nelson was one of the key reasons we didn''t score last night. His positioning was atrocious. As the loan striker you need to spend most of the game in and around the box but if Sky Sports did one of those heat maps I reckon you''d see he spent more of it on the flanks or near the centre-circle, trying to get into the action.

The team didn''t need that from him. The amount of times Hoolahan or Murphy had the ball in the final third and Oliviera wasn''t in a position to take the ball or near the box to offer a crossing opportunity was infuriating. He was playing like a Number 10, not a lone striker. It showed poor discipline and, possibly, a self-centred attitude. He wants to be seen as the main man and can''t cope with ploughing a lonely furrow up top but ensuring he''s jonny on the spot when the ball comes in. He wanted touches when in reality, if he''d only touched the ball twice and one of them was a goal he''d have had a better game than if he''d have spent the game nearer the midfield and on the flanks and had a bucketful of possession.

[SwindonCanary 455]

Lone striker, maybe he would have been better with a partner.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

He was poor last night, but so was everybody else. In his defense he was also carrying a groin injury, so maybe he should have been subbed earlier. I don''t think anybody would have complained if he was.

He was dropping deep and wide to get involved in the play because if he had stayed in the box he simply would not have got a kick - we were that slow to build the play up that every time we looked up the player on the ball had about 3 players around him. Our insistence to slow the play so we could take the man on, only to run into 2 more defenders and lose the ball is what cost us, no effort to stretch the play wide or get in behind & get defenders facing their own goal. We made it far too easy for Burton

[Baldyboy 0]

He should have been hooked at half time in my opinion, all the flicks and such like he does show a real arrogance which doesn''t help the team as 95% of the time he lost the ball!

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="canarydan23"]I think Nelson was one of the key reasons we didn''t score last night. His positioning was atrocious. As the loan striker you need to spend most of the game in and around the box but if Sky Sports did one of those heat maps I reckon you''d see he spent more of it on the flanks or near the centre-circle, trying to get into the action.

The team didn''t need that from him. The amount of times Hoolahan or Murphy had the ball in the final third and Oliviera wasn''t in a position to take the ball or near the box to offer a crossing opportunity was infuriating. He was playing like a Number 10, not a lone striker. It showed poor discipline and, possibly, a self-centred attitude. He wants to be seen as the main man and can''t cope with ploughing a lonely furrow up top but ensuring he''s jonny on the spot when the ball comes in. He wanted touches when in reality, if he''d only touched the ball twice and one of them was a goal he''d have had a better game than if he''d have spent the game nearer the midfield and on the flanks and had a bucketful of possession.[/quote]Good post Dan.I''ve already checked the heatmaps, and you''re absolutely right, he spent almost no time in the central striking position, and instead was playing more as either an attacking left mid, or attacking right mid instead of where he should have been!I''ve commented this on the Vrancic thread, as Vrancic is getting slated for not offering much, but when the striker isn''t there to give that killer pass to, your only options are to play sideways, backwards or have a wild go yourself, a situation directly caused by Nelson''s shocking positioning last night.

[king canary 7,577]

Indy

You were not at the game. You did not watch the game. So you cannot say someone''s positioning was shocking and you certainly can''t claim that it directly led to sideways or backwards passing.

I can''t believe that even needed saying.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

So you checked his heat map & he was rarely in the correct position?

Yet if you watched the game you would see that if he stood in the correct position he would never have got on the ball as we were that slow & labored in our build up that we made it easy for Burton to snuff out anything with ease

[GJP 79]

He wasn''t really on it last night. You could see fairly early in the game that he wasn''t switched on and anticipating things.

He did have a spell where he looked more in the mood but he is as selfish as they come and he is prone to blazing a shot high and wide rather than playing in someone else/keeping possession.

But I would still regard him as our best striker since Grant Holt.

[paul moy 235]

I''d start with Jerome when playing against teams that ''park the bus'' with Oliveira reverting to super-sub although we all know that he may well throw a wobbly. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,735]

still comfortably our best chance of scoring goals.....its frightening to think where goals would come from were he not here......

[KeiranShikari_2 0]

He worked hard but like the rest of the men in yellow he was frustrated. Took on a few shots that he probably shouldn''t have but tbh nobody else looked like getting close either.Crazy to rest (drop) him on Saturday.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="KeiranShikari"]He worked hard but like the rest of the men in yellow he was frustrated. Took on a few shots that he probably shouldn''t have but tbh nobody else looked like getting close either.Crazy to rest (drop) him on Saturday.[/quote]I wouldn''t drop him as long as he is fit as scoring on the break against an attacking home team is our best bet, but with packed defences at home Jerome is the key man.

[Guest]

I think it is important to criticise him when he is obviously not playing well and with his greediness last night.

Just tell it like it is and he was poor. I''m not sure if Jerome should replace him just yet but I think another performance like that one again on Saturday and he may have to be dropped.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

Nelson Oliveira remains by far our best striker. I don''t expect him to hit the net every single game though, I''m realistic. He''s worlds apart from Cam in ability, and if you don''t recognise that folks then god help you!

[Chip20 69]

And yet he''s currently joint second highest scorer in the Championship (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/championship/top-scorers). Might I suggest that if his ''conversion rate'' was miles higher and he was always in the right place at the right time on top of all his existing attributes then (a) we probably wouldn''t have acquired him in the first place and (b) he wouldn''t still be here now. How many goals have all the other strikers in this league with the kind of conversion rate you guys are pining for managed to score each so far?

[Chip20 69]

That was in response to the first few replies to this thread, btw. There were a load more responses along the same lines as I was trying to get across between my opening the thread and my composition of a response.

Should have hit ''refresh''. D''oh!

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="king canary"]Indy

You were not at the game. You did not watch the game. So you cannot say someone''s positioning was shocking and you certainly can''t claim that it directly led to sideways or backwards passing.

I can''t believe that even needed saying.[/quote]It didn''t need saying, because what you''re suggesting is complete nonsense.We''re not in the stone ages anymore, there is more than enough data available to form a perfectly good image of what happened as a broad picture in the game, even if it''s not going into the direct minutiae.What''s more, data removes observational bias and focuses purely on facts, so whilst one fan can look at a player and think they''ve played badly, another could think they''ve been ok, whereas the data doesn''t give you this option and just gives the underlying facts.If you think I''m wrong, then look at the bloody heatmaps yourself, there''s a whacking great empty space in the area where a striker should be, and then look at Nelson''s individual map, and tell me where he spent the vast majority of the game, because it certainly wasn''t in a central striking position anywhere near the area!What can then be further extrapolated from the heatmaps, is that there was virtually nobody in the area to receive ANY type of ball, be it a cross, through ball, pass or otherwise, and thus if there''s nobody there for the attacking midfielders to give the ball to, what choice do they have other than to pass sideways or backwards FFS???Last night was crying out for Jerome, and that would have been the key sub to make relatively early in the 2nd half (along with Wildschut), we could have then started slinging more crosses in and giving the midfield something to work with, but instead we stayed too defensive and waited too long when it was clear that it just wasn''t working from an attacking perspective even if we were safe as houses defensively.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

There was no urgency to get the ball forward. If Oliveira had stood in the strikers position then he would have not been involved in the game at all, because the drive wasn''t there to get the ball forward.

The irony is you say the game was crying out for Jerome, yet Jerome would have drifted even more than Oliveira, thats what Jerome normally does in games.

Where I will agree is the key sub was Wildschut - he should have been on at half time.

[Len 74]

Oliveira would be third on my sell list after Naismith and Klose. I''m worried that the decision not to sell him in the last window might return to haunt the club.

[king canary 7,577]

It''s not nonsense. I think stats are useful but it''s crazy to suggest you can just look at stats and heatmap and draw definitive conclusions on what happened on the pitch. Stats need context.

So Nelson was out wide a lot.

Was this tactical?

Was he out there trying to move defenders and create space for Wes/Josh etc?

Was he out there because it was so crowded that being out wide gave him more space to link with others?

Was he out there because Farke thought he could match up dangerously against their fullback?

I don''t know as I wasn''t there. To claim that him not being in the centre was the reason for sideways and backwards passing without being there is fucking stupid. For all your heatmap tells you there could have been other players occupying that space at the time, the passer could have decided to go sideways despite having options infront of him, etc. You have no clue as you did not actually see any of the match.

[Keith Scott 243]

Alex gets it. Honestly the amount of clueless fans who follow this club is frightening. You don''t deserve a striker like Oliveira.

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

[quote user="Keith Scott"]Alex gets it. Honestly the amount of clueless fans who follow this club is frightening. You don''t deserve a striker like Oliveira.[/quote]You could always go and ''support'' another club, Keith. Not that you''re ever supportive about anything ever, though.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="king canary"]Stats need context.

So Nelson was out wide a lot.

Try 90% of the game in midfield...Was this tactical?

You mean having your striker spend the majority of his time either where Josh or Wes should be? I very much doubt it.Was he out there trying to move defenders and create space for Wes/Josh etc?  Again, a striker does NOT spend their entire time in midfieldWas he out there because it was so crowded that being out wide gave him more space to link with others?

Was he out there because Farke thought he could match up dangerously against their fullback? No, because it''s the job of the wide players (be this Wes, Vrancic or Murphy) to handle the full back, and if there''s then nobody in the middle once you''ve beaten them - what''s the f**king point???I don''t know as I wasn''t there. To claim that him not being in the centre was the reason for sideways and backwards passing without being there is fucking stupid. For all your heatmap tells you there could have been other players occupying that space at the time, the passer could have decided to go sideways despite having options infront of him, etc. You have no clue as you did not actually see any of the match. The heatmap DOES show who was and was not in certain parts of the pitch. Maybe you''re refusing to look at it, but it''s VERY clear that NOBODY was in the central striking position, as there''s a whacking great gap in the heatmap where a striker should be, and when Nelson is the ONLY striker on the damn pitch, it''s not unreasonable to say that''s where he should be, but instead you try to come up with nonsensical suggestions and mitigations of why he wasn''t there. We''re not playing 4-6-0 FFS, and if the wide players beat their man or look to swing a cross in, and there''s NO striker there (regardless of why you think he wasn''t), then WTF do you expect them to do other than pass sideways or backwards (unless you want them to sling the ball in anyway and lose possession for f**k all reason?)[/quote]

[Gordon Bennett 780]

Are we really judging on one poor performance? Dear me.

[hogesar 9,615]

[quote user="Keith Scott"]Alex gets it. Honestly the amount of clueless fans who follow this club is frightening. You don''t deserve a striker like Oliveira.[/quote]

Was waiting for something notably stupid from yourself. What I like about you is your clear desire to never disappoint.

[king canary 7,577]

@indy

Your missing my point.

I don''t know why Nelson was out wide a lot. Do you know why I don''t know? Because I wasn''t at the game. I listened on the radio but that''s it.

My issue is the patently ludicrous suggestion that you can look at a heat map and draw conclusions. Without actually combining stats with watching the actual game you can''t know. There is nothing stone aged about that.

[Bill 1,788]

"What''s more, data removes observational bias and focuses purely on

facts, so whilst one fan can look at a player and think they''ve played

badly, another could think they''ve been ok, whereas the data doesn''t

give you this option and just gives the underlying facts."No. They merely fill the heads of the halfwitted with meaningless shyte.There are almost NO ''facts'' about a game that are relevant to how a player, or a team, played - only an idiot with little grasp of the game would think they do.If only on the basis that there is never ANY context in which those ''facts'' are put ie a shot off target that his row z is equivilant to one that just goes inches wide of the post

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Hercules Parrot"]No. They merely fill the heads of the halfwitted with meaningless shyte.[/quote]You''re one to talk about meaningless shyte, with the amount of absolute horse$hit you''ve posted in the vast majority of your 15k posts![quote]There are almost NO ''facts'' about a game that are relevant to how a player, or a team, played - only an idiot with little grasp of the game would think they do.[/quote]I guess that every major football club in the world is packed with ''idiots with little grasp of the game then'', as statistics form a vital and integral part of player and performance analysis, and only an idiot with little grasp of modern football would think otherwise.[quote]If only on the basis that there is never ANY context in which those ''facts'' are put ie a shot off target that his row z is equivalent to one that just goes inches wide of the post[/quote]It doesn''t matter if it''s in Row Z, Row K, A foot over, or clips the outside of the post, they are ALL misses, and when assessing shooting accuracy, they are all just as bad as each other in terms of the end result.Similarly, a successful pass is a successful pass, it doesn''t matter if it''s 2 yards, 10 yards or 50 yards.What most are arguing about are the ''intangibles'', the work rate of a players, their on-pitch leadership, their reaction to bad tackles or poor refereeing, things that are much harder (if not virtually impossible at times) to quantify with statistics. I''m not trying to do that, I''m simply using the factual stats to illustrate provable points, thus if I say that Vrancic was highly accurate with his passing - he was, but it doesn''t mean that the majority of those passes weren''t short range and either sideways or backwards - but again, that''s not the argument I''m making...

[I am a Banana (All Grown Up) 0]

How can we even look to compare Jerome to Olivera.2 totally different players.Olivera is from Portugal where flicks, tricks and finesse are encouranged.Jerome is from England where strength, power and speed are the so called ''key''.I agree that Olivera should be in the box more ready for the players to supply him, but if you aren''t getting the ball because the 3 behind you (Hoolahan, Vrancic and Murphy) aren''t supplying you can''t blame him for going after the ball out wide.The 3 behind him had poor games on Tuesday, always wanting an extra touch on the ball before releasing it. But does Olivera deserve this after 1 bad game?