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nu_matik

Mario Vrancic

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Playing two defensive midfielders in front of the back four mean you are sacrificing an attacking player so the three playing behind the striker have got to be special players. Hughton played a similar formation during our 10 match unbeaten run in the premiership during the 2012-13 season. That formation had Tettey & B J protecting the back 4 and the three supporting Holt (Pilkington, Hoolahan & Snodgrass) were all special players - capable of going past opponents and producing a piece of magic that would win matches.

If we play this formation we need similar attacking players in the 3. Murphy & Hoolahan fit the bill. But Vrancic has no place in this formation. He is more suited to a Dorrans/Crook role, playing from a deep midfield position. I do not see him as combative as Trybull, Reed or Tettey so has no role when this formation is used.

It is a massive worry that against opponents such as Burton Farke can''t even work that one out !

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@westcoast

Still no substitute for actually being at the game. All you''re doing there is combining stats with the subjective opinions of others to draw your conclusions.

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[quote user="Six Pack"]Playing two defensive midfielders in front of the back four mean you are sacrificing an attacking player so the three playing behind the striker have got to be special players. Hughton played a similar formation during our 10 match unbeaten run in the premiership during the 2012-13 season. That formation had Tettey & B J protecting the back 4 and the three supporting Holt (Pilkington, Hoolahan & Snodgrass) were all special players - capable of going past opponents and producing a piece of magic that would win matches.

If we play this formation we need similar attacking players in the 3. Murphy & Hoolahan fit the bill. But Vrancic has no place in this formation. He is more suited to a Dorrans/Crook role, playing from a deep midfield position. I do not see him as combative as Trybull, Reed or Tettey so has no role when this formation is used.

It is a massive worry that against opponents such as Burton Farke can''t even work that one out ![/quote]
That''s a fair post, as the majority of good balls to set us up on the attack from Vrancic came from him being quite deep and often central.

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@Six Pack
Agree with your likening Vrancic to Dorrans,but not with the suggestion that Farke hasn''t worked it out.. If we had a stable and consistently effective back four, together with a fit Pritchard, I think we might well see Murphy, Pritchard and either Hoolahan or Maddison supporting the striker, with Vrancic/Trybull alongside Tettey/Reed.  I think he is aware that a team as defensively set up as Burton on Tuesday can still win the game if you give them half a chance, and playing, say, Murphy, Hoolahan and Maddison behind Oliveira would most likely have given them just that. 

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[quote user="king canary"]@westcoast

Still no substitute for actually being at the game. All you''re doing there is combining stats with the subjective opinions of others to draw your conclusions.[/quote]Yes, but you are ignoring the fact, demonstrated after every match, that being at the game is no guarantee of sound judgement either; if it was, there wouldn''t be the constant difference of opinion between people who were there. It would be more productive all round if everyone took the true meaning of "opinion" to heart. Being at the match is advantageous in some some respects, but it doesn''t mysteriously convert opinion into incontovertible truth.

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I''m not ignoring it. Football is subjective, sure, and there isn''t enough error going to be wall to wall agreement. But I was always taught that a primary source will almost always provide a greater understanding than a secondary.

I am not having the idea that someone who hasn''t actually seen the game can make solid claims as to what happened and why in that particular instance.

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king canary wrote: "I am not having the idea that someone who hasn''t actually seen the game can make solid claims as to what happened and why in that particular instance. "
Yet that very principle is enshrined in virtually every well-established system of truth determination, including for example every trustworthy legal system. Eyewitness reports are one form of evidence, but never accepted without being subject to further critical examination. 

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Yep but you''re not getting a conviction off of ''well statistically he did it'' without some form of witness.

Watching the game is the eye witness, the stats are the expert witness. You can use the two to draw conclusions. You can''t do that by just looking at stats.

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So we''ve all agreed that Vrancic isnt good enough despite his potential. And that stats are all good and well but when they still point to underachievement they are just numbers, yes?

Thanks all, case closed x

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[quote user="king canary"]Yep but you''re not getting a conviction off of ''well statistically he did it'' without some form of witness.

Watching the game is the eye witness, the stats are the expert witness. You can use the two to draw conclusions. You can''t do that by just looking at stats.[/quote]Agreed, but nor can you do it just by being at the game. Indy is quite open about the limited information he has, lacking even the advantage of a stream, available to us exiles. And when "the expert witness" appears to contradict the eye witness, it''s actually useful to point this out. What I don''t accept is the idea that anyone''s eyes are the only witness they need. 

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If we are basically going off pass accuracy here, Zimmerman had a 96% pass accuracy, Trybull 94% and Klose 90%

I would suggest having so many players with very high pass accuracy would tell us all we need to know about the style of passes being played (short, safe, not adventurous, not particularly dangerous...)

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Baldyboy"]Were you actually at the game Indy? Vrancic barely moved faster than a snail throughout the game! As for killer passes, he barely made a successful pass throughout the game either![/quote]You should know by now Baldy that I rarely get to home games, and most of my ''insight'' is based on highlights/streams/data instead.What you''ve just managed to prove however is exactly how observational bias works, and why I use stats so much to back up my opinions.Vrancic made 49 passes, with an 89.8% success rate, whilst also providing 10 crosses (7 more than ANY other player). Every one of his long balls was accurate. and he had the second highest ''key pass'' rate with 3 (with only Wes on 6 above him). Yet you claim he ''barely made a successful pass throughout the game''....Observations are opinions, statistics are facts.[/quote]Now that statistic had me scratching my head until i realised he took the corners.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Baldyboy"]Were you actually at the game Indy? Vrancic barely moved faster than a snail throughout the game! As for killer passes, he barely made a successful pass throughout the game either![/quote]You should know by now Baldy that I rarely get to home games, and most of my ''insight'' is based on highlights/streams/data instead.What you''ve just managed to prove however is exactly how observational bias works, and why I use stats so much to back up my opinions.Vrancic made 49 passes, with an 89.8% success rate, whilst also providing 10 crosses (7 more than ANY other player). Every one of his long balls was accurate. and he had the second highest ''key pass'' rate with 3 (with only Wes on 6 above him). Yet you claim he ''barely made a successful pass throughout the game''....Observations are opinions, statistics are facts.[/quote]Now that statistic had me scratching my head until i realised he took the corners.[/quote]

And let''s be fair, his corners are usually pretty good - accurate and into a dangerous area for defenders and goalkeeper.

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Had me scratching my head too Tilly. I thought that couldn''t be true but I didn''t give it any further thought. Thanks for pointing that out.

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Stats are there to be manipulated, and not pointing put they were corners to make him sound better evidence. Being honest, his corners are good.

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So the conclusion is that he works hard, has a good technique, a good passing ability and is good at set pieces - but he had a poor game in which his team mates were also poor............or if you like, a poor team effort on the day, but that he has redeemimg features to his game that will undoubtedly be seen to better effect in games where the team as a whole plays well.Onwards and upwards. [:)]

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LDC - if you view all the players objectively, you wouldn''t be able to tell the difference between one player to another.

The likes of Vrancic and Husband in your eyes are just as good as Nelson, Murphy, Pritchard & Hoolahan. It wouldn''t matter if we got rid of those 4, just recruit 4 replacements, as long as they have to 2 arms, 2 legs and a head they will fit the bill.

If we didn''t have subjective views we wouldn''t have a worthwhile club forum. Everybody would simply agree with each other.

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[quote user="Six Pack"]LDC - if you view all the players objectively, you wouldn''t be able to tell the difference between one player to another.

The likes of Vrancic and Husband in your eyes are just as good as Nelson, Murphy, Pritchard & Hoolahan. It wouldn''t matter if we got rid of those 4, just recruit 4 replacements, as long as they have to 2 arms, 2 legs and a head they will fit the bill.

If we didn''t have subjective views we wouldn''t have a worthwhile club forum. Everybody would simply agree with each other.[/quote]

Well I watched the match as I have most of them this season and I like what I see of Vrancic.  He has the potential imo to be a plyer like we haven''t had for years - an Ian Crook style player.  He is imo still finding his feet in the championship, so I don''t like seeing such negative stuff written about him at this stage, especially when it is plain the whole team was poor on Tuesday - mainly in terms of finishing, because if one of those guilt edged chances that Murphy had, had gone in, the team would have relaxed a bit and the rest of the match would have settled to a better rhythm.  Objectvely or subjectively he certainly shouldn''t be the scapegoat for Tuesday''s draw and I hope he is in the team on Saturday, especially as I am going to this one and look forward to him to seeing him play.  At least he can pass accurately and help us control possession - and we need to hold on to the ball well at Sheffield because if we don''t we will be inviting pressure from a side that is buzzing after their promotion.

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I wouldn''t lose any sleep if he was off the books after the next window.

Ditto Husband and Naismith (especially.)

None of them are match winners it seems.

BUT we are stuck with them so they need an outing or two BUT that doesn''t mean we have to exaggerate their value to our cause.

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]Vrancic has been s hit all season. Nelson and Josh haven''t been. That simple.[/quote]Not saying that I fully agree with their scoring system, but Vrancic has been rated higher on WhoScored than Josh has so far this season and is currently our number 6 rated player according to their stats.Interesting that Klose and Wes hold the top two spots, with Martin and Jerome in the bottom two (well Hanley is there, but after 1 minute played that would be a bit harsh!).

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Hoola Han Solo wrote the following post at 15/09/2017 8:33 AM:

Vrancic has been s hit all season.

Blimey you''re having a pretty bad run ATM Hoola 😂

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the problem we have is how to accommodate Vrancic, Maddison and Hoolahan into the same team. They are all slightly different but want that same spot behind the striker. This causes us to become very narrow - Wes certainly isn''t a right winger either.

I just think we look a lot better with Wildschut on the right, but we then are leaving out 2 of Vrancic, Hoolahan and Maddison - that''s before you throw Pritchard into the equation

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''''.the problem we have is how to accommodate Vrancic, Maddison and Hoolahan

into the same team. They are all slightly different but want that same

spot behind the striker. This causes us to become very narrow - Wes

certainly isn''t a right winger either.

I just think we look a lot better with Wildschut on the right, but

we then are leaving out 2 of Vrancic, Hoolahan and Maddison - that''s

before you throw Pritchard into the equation

''''

Thats the kind of problem you''d like to have as a a manager.

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Vrancic looked classy and put in his best performance yet tonight. When he has time to pick a pass it''s always a good one, but I think we just want to see him take a leaf out of the Trybull/Tettey book and put himself about a bit. He seems to go in half hearted for balls he could probably win, and that might help us win possession back a bit further up the field more often.

Also thought Husband looked much better tonight...great team performance all round and a better balance of attack and defend.

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Mario is a playmaker and deadball specialist. He''s not a midfield dynamo type. In the British game we adore fearless players in the mould of Robson Ince and Keane.

Box to box heart on their sleeve warriors. Mario isn''t that at all. Yet he has the capability to influence games with just one single action.

I would like to see his stats at the end of the season. My guess is that they will validate his worth to the team. So far his goals and assist numbers look pretty decent. Someone like Le Tissier would often go missing in games but then spot a pass that could change the outcome of a match. Vrancic is perhaps a player more in theLe Tissier mound than he is an Ince, Keane or Robson type.

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More like Ray Wilkins than Le Tizz for me. He''s a decent, tidy player and has a good dead ball but I don''t see him smashing in volleys tbh.

He''s another who will benefit from the protection of the two holding players. Long may that continue.

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