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Mario Vrancic

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Point taken westcoast - perhaps it was a poor choice of word. He has a sort of languid body language that can be misinterpreted as lazy. I suspect that some people have judged him on what he looks like more that what he does.

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[quote user="westcoastcanary"]

Baldyboy wrote: "Were you actually at the game Indy? Vrancic barely moved faster than a snail throughout the game! As for killer passes, he barely made a successful pass throughout the game either!"

False. Vrancic made a total of 49 passes, 90% of which were successful and 44 of which were accurate; they included 3 key passes (only Wes made more). 
Were you at the game Baldy, and did you make any effort to ascertain whether your subjective impressions were actually accurate?
People at the game form subjective impressions of what went on. Stats like heatmaps and passes made etc. provide an objective way of checking the accuracy of those subjective impressions. 
[/quote]

Yes I was at the game and of those accurate passes how many were more than 2 yards? Not many from what I saw, were you at the game? If so maybe you could explain what Vrancic was actually doing?

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@BaldyboySo, since the stats disprove your claim that Vrancic "barely made a successful pass throughout the game", you resort to bluster and fabricate a different, face-saving, accusation that most of his accurate passes were short? And this about a player who regularly makes more longer successful passes than anyone else in the side! Indy_Bones''s own reply to you (4:40 on this thread) shows just how far off the mark you are.

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So what distance were these passes? As I said most people thought he was poor, by the way what was the accuracy of Klose and Zimmerman as their passes were mostly to each other?

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I am sure when fit Pritchard will be in CM role

a lot of these players we bought are squad fillers low on wages who can do a job but will not set the world alight

Once we have everyone fit it is cheaper to have some of these players on the bench than a Bassong Lafferty etc

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Baldyboy and Hairy - have you heard of the term confirmation bias?

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[quote user="Baldyboy"]So what distance were these passes? As I said most people thought he was poor, by the way what was the accuracy of Klose and Zimmerman as their passes were mostly to each other?[/quote]You forgot to mention Gunn Baldboy as for the first 15 minutes or so i think they were the only three players on the pitch who touched the ball. [:D]

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Yea Ian I have thanks and I think we all suffer from it unintentionally sometimes. Let''s make something clear. I think Vrancic has some good qualities and during the QPR game his second half performance was the best on the pitch (IMO). That doesn''t take away the point that he, and a number of others, played poorly yesterday and his slow and sideways style, from predominantly wide positions played into Burton''s hands (IMO).

Secondly I don''t accept you can assess a player or teams performance through heat-maps, possession stats, passing stats or any suchlike anywhere near as well as you can by watching the game. Otherwise why bother employing scouts, just look at the stats!

For instance, how do you statistically judge a players contribution without the ball, his speed of thought, anticipation, ability to lose his marker, pace off the first ten yards, covering for team mates when they are out of position, leadership, organisation etc, bloody etc.

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I agree about stats not giving the whole picture,but personally, I think that people - whether they are at the match or watching on TV, see what they want to see.  I saw a bad team performance from a team desperately wanting to do well, but lacking someone in midfield to control things a bit more. Wes doesn''t do that - Wes is Wes - and Vrancic wasn''t able to impose himself either, but this was gainst a club leaving very few gaps at the back to do anything with and although Vrancic struggled to impose himself, Wes didn''t do much better imo.  Murphy and Oliveira were very poor last night imo - our arguably two best striking threats, both showing no composure in their shooting - but Vrancic gets the flack.  He was no worse than any of the others imo - it was a bad team performance, full stop. 

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The thing is, Wes always wanted the ball and was always trying to make something happen. The fact that the movement from his teammates was so poor meant he had to be all over the pitch. He was visibly frustrated late on. He should have been playing centrally and the useless Vrancic subbed off. Wildschut did very well when he came on, but the change was made far, far too late. Some odd decisions by Farke last night.

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]The thing is, Wes always wanted the ball and was always trying to make something happen. The fact that the movement from his teammates was so poor meant he had to be all over the pitch. He was visibly frustrated late on. He should have been playing centrally and the useless Vrancic subbed off. Wildschut did very well when he came on, but the change was made far, far too late. Some odd decisions by Farke last night.[/quote]If you''re saying Vrancic was useless last night, then I dread to think what you''re calling Murphy and Nelson, who were clearly far worse than Vrancic throughout.Murphy and Nelson made far less passes than any other outfield players (26 and 30 vs 49+), were inaccurate with too many of those passes (Josh 69% and Nelson 80%), they took twice as many shots as anyone else (both with 5 vs the nearest others on 2, yet only ONE of those TEN shots was on target), and were quite obviously the weakest links on the pitch, however you decide to slate Vrancic instead!And yet you think Farke is the one making odd decisions....

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All I can say is that I saw him make several incisive passes, which created threatening situations. Some people didn''t see them. I have seen similar traits in other matches but again some people can''t get past his body language. I think that it is unlikely that I or anybody else will change their minds. There seems to be little point in engaging in debate, because if they missed it at the time they are unlikely to recall it afterwards!Nor it seems, are they prepared to listen to objective details from match statistics. Of course they don''t tell you everything but they do provide some clues.

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So our two most attacking players made less passes and had more shots?

Who would have thought it. I''m pretty sure that would be standard for any game played.

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[quote user="Hairy Canary"]Yea Ian I have thanks and I think we all suffer from it unintentionally sometimes. Let''s make something clear. I think Vrancic has some good qualities and during the QPR game his second half performance was the best on the pitch (IMO). That doesn''t take away the point that he, and a number of others, played poorly yesterday and his slow and sideways style, from predominantly wide positions played into Burton''s hands (IMO).

Secondly I don''t accept you can assess a player or teams performance through heat-maps, possession stats, passing stats or any suchlike anywhere near as well as you can by watching the game. Otherwise why bother employing scouts, just look at the stats!

For instance, how do you statistically judge a players contribution without the ball, his speed of thought, anticipation, ability to lose his marker, pace off the first ten yards, covering for team mates when they are out of position, leadership, organisation etc, bloody etc.[/quote]Nobody is saying that stats tell the whole story. The point is that "being there and using you eyes" doesn''t tell the whole story either. To form a balanced opinion all the evidence available to you needs to be taken into account, and stats provide a check on some, but not all, of the subjective impressions one forms. It is simply silly to poo poo a tool that every top club and coaching team in every major league in the world recognise as indispensable. You only have to read the match threads on here to see that, every single match, people who were at the game come up with conflicting claims about who played where and what they contributed. When it is clear that people "see" different things (and ignoring those simply posting negativity irrespective of anything that actually went on), looking at the stats provides a useful, more objective, way of adjudicating between contradictory claims from "eyewitnesses".

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Vrancic is clearly struggling to adapt to the championship. A time contributing from the bench is needed, esp when we have better options (wes, maddison, pritchard in due course)

However there are (too infrequent) glimpes that he has something to offer, rather than being completely useless (eg only wes has created more chances, and he is typically creating between 2-3 per game, appr. same rate as maddison & wildschutt and better than everyone else bar Wes)

Using the better options centrally now is a must

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Not everybody is f ucking obsessed with stats, Indy Bones. There''s no stats for workrate, with Murphy and Nelson actually trying a lot harder to make things happen, i.e. by actually taking shots etc. Vrancic barely gets out of jogging mode and was a passenger throughout. Ever tried to actually watch a game?

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Actually Westcoast I think we largely agree in that stats help to fill in the gaps and supplement the views we all form when watching live.

I do take issue though when you say that "nobody is saying that stats tell the whole story" when Indy Bones is doing exactly that. He didn''t see the game yet is using stats and stats alone to form an opinion on how specific players performed.

LDC is right, it was a poor performance all round and that is the point of discussion for me. Personally I felt that Wes, Murphy and Oli all tried hard to create, take shots and risks - unfortunately none had a particularly good game and it didn''t come off for them. Vrancic on the other hand took the safer option, passing it more accurately yet less adventurously.

It just opinions after all as to what is the better way to break down Burton but just spouting stats in some patronising superior way to educate other people that their views are either wrong or prejudice just gets on my pecks.

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]Not everybody is f ucking obsessed with stats, Indy Bones. There''s no stats for workrate, with Murphy and Nelson actually trying a lot harder to make things happen, i.e. by actually taking shots etc. Vrancic barely gets out of jogging mode and was a passenger throughout. Ever tried to actually watch a game?[/quote]Stats or not Indy Bones is right.  The shooting on Tuesday was TERRIBLE.  Vrancic''s pass success indicates he was plainly trying to pass to our players, rather than try impossible flicks or dribble around in circles till he lost the ball.  He wasn''t great, but neither were the rest of them.

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Hairy/westcoast

Agree with both of you- stats can be really useful at challenging some of our more subjective impressions but they need the context of what is happening on the pitch.

I''m a big American football fan and that is a pretty stat obsessed game but even there people talk about intangibles and how stats need to pass the ''eye test.''

Too much reliance on pure stats is unhelpful, particularly in a game as free flowing as football. Just witness some peoples obsession with assists (a generally worthless to stat) to try and prove a players quality.

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Nice little dig at Wes there, LDC. He was one of the only ones on the pitch actively trying to make things happen. By the nature of his game not everything is going to come off, but never hides and sleaysxwant the ball. You can''t say that about all of his teammates, however.

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]Nice little dig at Wes there, LDC. He was one of the only ones on the pitch actively trying to make things happen. By the nature of his game not everything is going to come off, but never hides and sleaysxwant the ball. You can''t say that about all of his teammates, however.[/quote]

My point was not a "dig" at Wes, it was a criticism of a midfield player who didn''t have a great game.  He had one of those games where the opposition always had three men around him, because of the way they had to defend. He had a lot of the ball, but was crowded out and created little with it, imo needing to release it quicker to keep it moving.  His constantly holding on to the ball waiting to give a perfect pass quite often ended with him losing it.   That is a criticism not a dig.  I am quite aware Vrancic wasn''t startlingly effective either and he can take criticism too.  I''m simply pointing out that collectively on the attcking front - Wes/Vrancic/Murphy/Oliveira - they were all poor.

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There are some good points in all that people have said but the truth is we don''t get forward quickly enough because players seem to take an age to see a team mate in a better position.

Stats are useful and deceptive at the same time because as Tilly rightly said in the first 15 mins Gunn and the centre backs played a lot of passes to each other, all of which were successful but what did it achieve?

People have their favourites and opinions can be swayed that way but objectivity is better than bias.

Surely with one up front the likes of Vrancic and Murphy should have been busting a gut to get forward when they didn''t have the ball but how many times did they get beyond the player in possession when in the final 3rd, most of the time that was Wes, but never did anyone make a run behind, now that''s not being critical that is a fact!

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So what you''re saying Hoola Han Solo, is that because Vrancic didn''t sprint around much a la Tettey, he didn''t work hard?

Maybe he''s in the team to perform a different role?

For me (and yes, I was at the match), he was constantly moving, drifting into space and showing for the ball. 90% pass accuracy, number of key passes indicate he was not a passenger.

I''m not a fan of using stats alone to judge a game, but just because Oliveira had a few shots shanked into row ZZ, and Murphy missed an easy chance, doesn''t mean they "worked harder to make things happen" than other players.

Let''s turn it around; in your opinion, what more could/should Vrancic have done on Tuesday given the fact he rarely had any real options on the ball?

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''Let''s turn it around; in your opinion, what more could/should Vrancic have done on Tuesday given the fact he rarely had any real options on the ball?

Been subbed earlier maybe at half time, for Wildschut. This isn''t a criticism of Vrancic, but we had Hoolahan & Vrancic trying to play the same sort of game in the same position & Burton figured out how to snuff it out early on.

For me the criticism would lay with Farke for not making the changes a lot earlier when it was becoming obvious what was happening.

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@Hairy Canary
[Y] In Indy_Bones''s defence, though, he doesn''t simply rely on the stats. He generally starts with the information sources he does have available to him, e.g. match commentary, match reports and what posters on here who were at the match are saying. IMO he gets a lot more right on this limited basis than many of the opinionated "I was there" know-alls who regularly give him flak (of whom you are not one I hasten to add [:D]).

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