Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Saint Canary

A bad workman blames his tools........

Recommended Posts

After our defeat to Watford Worthy said:
"You can take a horse to water, but sometimes it comes down to whether they want to drink it. We, as a staff, can shout and cajole all we want from the sidelines, but once those players cross that white line they''ve got to do it.”

Whereas,

After Evertons 5-2 defeat to Dinamo Bucharest David Moyes said:
"We win together and we lose together and tonight was a night when we''ve all lost together - there''s no criticism of any players publicly, I wouldn''t do that.  It''s my responsibility to manage and I take full responsibility for all the results, as I do tonight."

On one hand we have a manager trying to take the pressure off his players and on the other a manager who is completly blaming his.  I know which manager I would want to play for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And how many times have I read comments on this board to the effect "Why won''t Worthy criticise the players, the performance was rubbish"? Can the man do nothing right suddenly?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote]And how many times have I read comments on this board to the effect "Why won''t Worthy criticise the players, the performance was rubbish"? Can the man do nothing right suddenly?[/quote]

It has nothing to do with him not being able to do anything right but it has everything to do with the way he seems unable to take his share of the responsibility.

The difference is Putney that Moyes is accepting his share of the responsibility for defeat whereas Worthy is not and is laying all the blame on his players.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I''m with Putney on this, Worthy gets criticised if he praises the players efforts AND if he has a go at them , for what was a truly woeful showing first half at Watford. A lose/lose option and I bet he''d cop it even more if he said nothing at all! Apparently the only player open to criticism is Fleming, but I''ve already posted what I think of that in a new thread, which I hope appears before it becomes outdated!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Your presumption is based on one quote from Moyes. I would suggest it comes from the need to demonise Worthington rather than as any serious analysis of football management.

Expect some halfwit to come on here next claiming that "Worthington ate my hamster"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote]I''m with Putney on this, Worthy gets criticised if he praises the players efforts AND if he has a go at them , for what was a truly woeful showing first half at Watford. A lose/lose option and I bet h...[/quote]

Sorry Barman but I don''t see that Worthy is just criticising the players he is blaming them entirely.  He buys the players, he trains the players, he picks the team, he chooses the formations.  Some of the responsibility for the performances and bad results lies at his feet as well as the players. 

His comments are basically suggesting he has done all he can do and if he really believes that we are in bigger trouble than I thought.  He has distanced himself from the players with those comments.  He can criticise the players if he wants, I don''t care.  It''s the fact he has created a "Us and Them" situation between the coaching staff and the players.  That is the problem not the fact that he gave the players a rocket!  Moyes on the other hand is talking about unity between him and his players and is taking his share of the blame. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote]Your presumption is based on one quote from Moyes. I would suggest it comes from the need to demonise Worthington rather than as any serious analysis of football management. Expect some halfwit to co...[/quote]

Really?  My "Presumption" is based on one quote from Moyes?  Maybe you should read both articles.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/4241186.stm
http://new.pinkun.com/content/ncfc/story.aspx?brand=PINKUNOnline&category=Norwich&tBrand=PINKUNOnline&tCategory=Norwich&itemid=NOED14%20Sep%202005%2011%3A41%3A35%3A200

Please point out to me anywhere where Moyes blames just the players for their loss, then point out where Worthy accepts any of the responsibility for ours?

Your assumption that this is merely an attempt to demonise Worthy is based on what exactly? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I''m not quite sure what your point is here Saint Canary. I stated that your claim was based on one quote from Moyes you deny it then offer in defence, errrrrrrr.......... one quote from Moyes ! Until you can supply information about Moyes reactions to other defeats your point is pretty meaningless.

Ferguson has defended Rooney and his players yet this week choose to publically state that he doesn''t defend latest Roony''s sending off. Managers say it as they see it. Perhaps he should lie simply to please you. Maybe the press talk afterwards could be conducted like some award winners ceremony.

" I would like to say for Gordon in Gorleston that the players were not to blame, for Derek in Dereham I am to blame, for Herbert in Hunstanton in was all Flemings fault and for Benny in Beccles I have to say the board must take some of the responsibilty............. blah, blah

Your gripe would not have been posted had we have won on Tuesday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I remember, Worthy said that he will stand up and be counted, but the players need to do it as well. Sounds like he''s happy to take the blame, and numerous players have come out and said we''re not playing well enough at the moment.

Are we at the risk of turning into Man Utd fans? We think we should be winning all the time, and if we''re not, then we turn on the club with vitriol. It''s still early, we still have a good team, and if (and it''s a long shot) we can put a run together, we''ll climb up the table quickly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course he takes his share of the responsibility, he knows the buck stops with him and that its his job on the line. However, the players WERE awful on Tuesday and they need a good boot up the backside.

The last time I remember Worthy criticising the players in the press, the next game we beat Man U 2-0. He has turned around bad situations before, and he will do it again. All this constant bitching can only make it more difficult though. Can we try and stay constructive in our comments and criticisms?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote]I''m not quite sure what your point is here Saint Canary. I stated that your claim was based on one quote from Moyes you deny it then offer in defence, errrrrrrr.......... one quote from Moyes ! Until ...[/quote]

Obviously my gripe would not of been posted if we had won Tuesday because I doubt Worthy would have made the same comments.  Simple fact is though we lost though didn''t we and have done so on 3 other occasions this year.

My point was simple enough, I thought that Moyes approach was the better option to take than simply laying ALL the blame on the players. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It was about time worthy critised his players, for far to long they have been protected, most still think they are playing for a premier league club.

It''s good to see the manager starting to lose his rag with this shower, they are capable of so much more as we all know. Nigel Worthington you are at last showing some passion, more of the same from the players and we''ll start climbing the league.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The players were awful for 45 mins on tuesday but performances have not been much better all season.   At the end of the day the players are underperforming but are playing to worthys tactics and instructions - anyone who does differently from told is dropped. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Make up your minds, is Worthy a bad manager and he''s blaming his players or are they just rubbish (ie. Flem, Hughes, Colin etc etc) in which case what can he do? Oh yes, go out and get more, oh but then that''s not acceptable ''cos he''s just buying his way out of trouble instead of coaching them to become great players!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote]The players were awful for 45 mins on tuesday but performances have not been much better all season. At the end of the day the players are underperforming but are playing to worthys tactics and inst...[/quote]

Where''s your evidence, do we let the players decide the team, formation or tactics.

It would be a free for all if we ever start to do that. There has to be one man in charge and that is NW. The players are simply not performing as a team as they did when we got ourselves promoted. We can see poor performances all over the park, that i''m afraid is down to the player and not the manager.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote]Where''s your evidence, do we let the players decide the team, formation or tactics. It would be a free for all if we ever start to do that. There has to be one man in charge and that is NW. The play...[/quote]

I think I am having a slow friday afternoon ronbol(x2) as I cant see what you are getting at.

Players are not playing to their potential (Flem, shacks) andso they have to take some blame.  As GTG posted who takes responsibility for who at corners and set pieces are basic coachng instructions not being carried out.

Worthy also has to take the blame for not straightening out a defence that has had no real changes in personnel for 12 mionths yet still play like strangers.  Why hasnt a clear leader and organiser been appointed to keep a shape,  where is the understanding between players when one steps out of line?  If flem is the leader (at captain that seems logical) and there is a lack of leadership what has worthy done in 2005 to address that?  If he has done something it has hadno impact or he has done nothing - either way worthys approach has been ineffective.

Leadership and organsiation is acheived through a shared vision  coaching drill and practice on the training pitch.  But what we see on the pitch is disorganised chaos and it has been apparent for 12 months or so.  If its a lack of leadership why didnt worthy buy in that skill in the summer?  Why has he persisted in playing on cenral defender when even impartial observers notice that shacks has consistently outplayed the ever present until watford?  

As far the midfield is concerned the fact that players cannot hold a shape and continue run like free range roosters on heat towards a ball is part of the tcatical approach - it was praised by the club on Monday following the plymouth game - those are poor tactics organisation and structure and the blame for those lie with the coaches.  

My view with the defence is that the coaches have no made good personnel work.  In midfield he is trying to make a silk purse from a pigs ear that we bought.  The problesm we see are sovlable but the vision and guidance from the coaching staff does not appear to be able to address the issues.

 

OTBC 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

doesnt anyone find it stragne that worthington does all this before the biggest game of the season when the fans are unhappy with him????

he''s about 9 months too late.... Its ok trying toSave face now by saying what we maybe want to hear, but any fool can see that worthington is desperate... indeed on this very website the top story... he is close to cracking up... he goes on about standing up and being counted and the fact we need to be a star team... He mentions palace being dead and buried at Xmas when they went up.. its worth Noting Worthy that it took a change of manager to take them up... are u hinting something?

he is desperate for us to win on sunday as he knows defeat and a poor showing could cost him his job.

jas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I seriously believe that if Worthy cannot accept that he and his coaching staff are at fault, then we are destined to end up in the lower half of the league.

Already Davenport has been brainwashed and knows that if he wants to stay in the team he needs to refer to Fleming as part of the backbone of the team.  Even the most ardent Fleming fan has to accept that he is probably the least inspirational player on the pitch at the moment, and he is Worthy''s captain, a player who must never be dropped.

If only we could find out how some of the players feel we might get a better insight into how Worthy rules the team with an iron rod.

Does Shackell think he should start before Fleming based on both their performances so far this season, I think he would say yes.

Does McVeigh think he should have started against Watford after his performance against Plymouth, I think he would say yes.

Do Henderson and Jarvis think they should be given a chance to see if they can score the goals so badly needed, I think they would say yes.

I consider myself to be a loyal supporter and ever the optimist, but I can honestly say that the way we have played so far this season has been very poor.  We have not necessarily been beaten by better players, more by managers who make better use of their resources and get their players to play as a team.

I presume our players are told by the manager and coaches how they want them to play, and the result is what we are seeing on the pitch.  Worthy and his coaching staff need to come up with some new ideas pretty soon because the ones at the moment are not working. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote]doesnt anyone find it stragne that worthington does all this before the biggest game of the season when the fans are unhappy with him???? he''s about 9 months too late.... Its ok trying toSave face no...[/quote]

You got to feel a bit sorry for Nigel  ,  whichever way you look at it  he`s doing the best he can  , and people should stand back from the criticism  bandwagon  , and realise that  he WAS a manager that got us into the prem !!     further , it IS  the players who win and lose games !   it is THEY  who  should  work at  increasing their skill level  , and start EARNING their pay ......     after all , by the time they  are employed   by a club  , its assumed that they are proficient in their chosen profession !!    frankly , a lot of our players  are NOT  playing as if this was the case !   

Nigel is right to give them the hairdryer treatment  , jeesus , if I didn`t do my job properly   , I would be sacked  on a weeks notice ....these   ball pushers  need a  sharp lesson in the realities of this world ,  they should take notice that what they get payed per week   is totally out  of context to what they are doing to get this sort of money !   ergo they are guilty of thinking  their " talents "  deserve  this kind of money  ?   

I have a message for them before the Derby clash on Sunday .....   100% effort ,  EARN your money !!  is that too much to ask  ?   just remember that a lot of the punters  filing through the turnstiles  on Sunday  will be paying out something like a quarter of their weekly income  to see you lot  !!!!! 

This does not apply to Hucks , he can do no wrong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With every manager there has to come a time when past acheivements, no matter how glorious, have to be forgotten and the present results and peformances become paramount.

Ramsey did the ultimate with england but it was right he was sacked in ''72 after a disasterous set of results in wc qualifying that did not take the country as far as the public wanted. 

Its the same with worthy; what he had done in 5 years has been fantastic but it is pointless harking back to that if current performances and results dont improve soon.  The squad he has built WILL disintergrate and the club will have a ''rebuilding'' period which may take a further 1-5 years to geta  good squad together again.  Look at the purchases this summer when we were MOST likely to attract the best players -what will it beloke when we are mid table club??

No one doubts Worthy is trying his hardest - that is the core asset of the man, 100% committment.  Just on the football pitch though there has to be ability to match that committment and currently there are precious few signs that he has the ability to turn the club around fromits current malaise.

 

OTBC    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry Saint, I can''t agree with you. Worthy hardly ever openly criticises the players and gets tonnes of abuse for it in these very Boards, so when he does quite rightly have a go for a completely unacceptable performance, he should be appluaded.  [And to use Moyes'' quotes as a guide is extremely misleading as they are in completely different circumstances and context].

If I recall correctly, last season it took right up to the Arsenal away game before Worthy actually came out and criticised the players - it was April, and months after any of us would have done - and if also I recall correctly we then went on our best run of the season: I hope this repeats itself, but sad to say that I get the impression many on here would love to see him and the team fail miserably!!! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote]With every manager there has to come a time when past acheivements, no matter how glorious, have to be forgotten and the present results and peformances become paramount. Ramsey did the ultimate with...[/quote]

My comments , ZLF,  WERE about 100% committment ,  from the players...... !!  

 A manager who turned our fortunes around in recent years  , who took us into the prem ,  should NOT now be scorned and abused   because    we were relegated  last season , and  the [ somewhat foolish ] expectation  that we were real candidates for automatic  promotion this season .

The title of this thread is , "  A bad workman blames his tools " ,  which , by the way , never made any sense to me , like ... handing a pickaxe to a brain surgeon  is no reason for him to make that complaint ? ,   Nigels " tools "  are the players ,  and he has every right to expect them  to do what they are designed to do !      frankly , its all going tits up  for us because these " tools"  need sharpening  up , big time !    and I just don`t see  how its Nigels fault   if    the player trot onto the field , prance about aimlessly , and think the jobs done !!   my post was all about  those players  NOT earning  the high wages they`re getting ....  professionals  shouldn`t NEED cajoling  to be PROFESSIONAL ....period !!

Make Hucks the captain  ,  it will take the heat off Flemmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
then point out where Worthy accepts any of the responsibility for ours?

“I''ll stand up and be counted,” said Worthington. “What I need is the players to stand up and be counted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This forum is becoming sickening, with the constant picking away at the manager, even for totally superficial and irrelevant things like media soundbites. Make no mistake, all that is, is a witch-hunt. It leaves the rest of us, who want to make constructive criticisms of the manager, the players and the board, feeling we have to defend them.

When it reaches the stage of posters (yes - more than one, incredibly) saying that NW should be replaced by Keegan, it goes right off the scale of lunacy.

I rather regret giving a thread with such an idiotic title any credibility by posting on it, but I''m relieved to see that others share my feelings about it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote]Sorry Saint, I can''t agree with you. Worthy hardly ever openly criticises the players and gets tonnes of abuse for it in these very Boards, so when he does quite rightly have a go for a completely una...[/quote]

Read what I have said.  The players got a rocket and quite rightly so, the performances have not been anywhere good enough.  The point I am trying to make (maybe I have not made myself clear) is merely that Moyes'' approach seems to be of unity between players and coaches and JOINT responsibility.  Worthy''s comments separated the coaching from the playing staff.  IMO I feel telling the players they were awful is fine, I would have just have preferred Worthy to say "We (coaches and players) have to do a lot better.  I continue to defend Worthy on this board and do not want him sacked - yet.  I just felt he could have handled this better.  Simple as that.

Old boy.  I''m sorry if using an inflammatory title has enraged you so much and on reflection it''s a poor choice, I by no means intended it to be a Witch Hunt.  The whole point of it was to question whether Worthy should have took the Moyes approach of unifying, funny no one seems to want to discuss that after the title I''ve used.  I find it strange that you feel this was a witch hunt, you obviously have paid little attention to my posts in the past (why should you is suppose?). 

I am very sorry that I have made you defend Worthy when you want to aim "constructive criticise" at him but I really don''t think this subject rates up there with "Sack Worthy for Keegan" comments.  At the end of the day though I did not make you read my post nor did I ever ask for a reply from you.  If you have tainted your perfect posting of only engaged in topics with a higher intellectual standard of debate, you only have yourself to blame.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why is it lunacy to want a brilliant motivator of players like Keegan to replace a manager who clearly can''t do this himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote]Why is it lunacy to want a brilliant motivator of players like Keegan to replace a manager who clearly can''t do this himself.[/quote]

I got this orrible feeling your  having a go Link     

The only motivation that Keegan generates is  fast disappearance  of a clubs financial assets !  ... near on ruined Mancity ,  and he couldn`t pick his nose , let alone  players !   and  if you think Nigel plays favourites   you should check out Keegans  love affair with Fowler !    ... 

And I`m sure that the , ever  patient [ until recently ! ] Hucks , would be EVER so pleased  to see Keegan again  seeing  as how the nerk  stuck him in the reserves for so long at Mancity , while  he played with all his " prem " signings   , despite the club  dropping into the relegation zone !!!!!!!

Still like to have Keegan as manager anyone ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...