Russell Martin

[Tootingyellow 1]

It''s not just about the Millwall game. Personally, I don''t think he''s been good enough for some time and I''ve never liked him at CB.

[djc 0]

Based on the last couple of months of team selection and results i think its safe to say "come in number 5. Your time is up". But thanks for the memories.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

[quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Tootingyellow"]I don''t think anyone''s arguing that RM isn''t a great guy or hasn''t doesn''t done a great job for City over the years. He is simply no longer good enough imho and whilst I don''t think it''s directly attributable it''s difficult to overlook that fact that we have hardly conceded a goal since the Millwall game.[/quote]Why dissmiss the change in formation? The move to two holding midfielders is more significant than the personnel changes, no-one is saying the same about the other defenders from that game.

[/quote]

I would humbly suggest that its both and its not evil or having a go at Martin to point this out. he was regularly losing his man and our defence was consistently all over the place when he was in the side.

And yes i would also say the same about Franke who i think also played at Millwall? We have looked a lot better defensively since both Martin and Franke have not been in the side and since we tweaked the formation.

We also initially looked a lot better when we took Husband out and played Stiepermann at left back although i will admit that Husband''s more recent performances have seen a significant improvement and suggest he could yet do ok for us there.

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Tootingyellow"]I don''t think anyone''s arguing that RM isn''t a great guy or hasn''t doesn''t done a great job for City over the years. He is simply no longer good enough imho and whilst I don''t think it''s directly attributable it''s difficult to overlook that fact that we have hardly conceded a goal since the Millwall game.[/quote]Why dissmiss the change in formation? The move to two holding midfielders is more significant than the personnel changes, no-one is saying the same about the other defenders from that game.

[/quote]

I would humbly suggest that its both and its not evil or having a go at Martin to point this out. he was regularly losing his man and our defence was consistently all over the place when he was in the side.

And yes i would also say the same about Franke who i think also played at Millwall? We have looked a lot better defensively since both Martin and Franke have not been in the side and since we tweaked the formation.

We also initially looked a lot better when we took Husband out and played Stiepermann at left back although i will admit that Husband''s more recent performances have seen a significant improvement and suggest he could yet do ok for us there.[/quote]One mans ''tweak'' is another mans ''significant change'', I''m going with the latter. [:D]

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

What’s worse, those that make him a scapegoat or those that blindly defend someone who was/isn’t up the required standard?

I’m neither a hater or lover, have met the guy and he’s genuinely a nice guy but we can’t pick players based on them being a nice guy, can we??

I smile when people judge one post that makes a valid point, being that we are indeed a better side without him in it and the results are better (this is a results driven business), but then follow it up with their own blinkered view.

Top marks to the guy for getting a ticket and standing with the fans, took some balls as there will no doubt have been a few in there that are no his fans.

[Chip20 69]

I see what you are saying, Rich T, but the point is that it is hardly an empiricle experiment is it? Sure the results co-incided with RM''s absence from the squad but the point others are making is that there were numerous other factors that have had an impact over the same period; why attribute it solely to RM''s absence? There have been at least five other changes at the same time; why not attribute the improvement in performance and result to one of them instead?

Fair enough, if RM were re-instated, everything else remains the same as the past few weeks and results suddenly take a nosedive then there would be evidence that RM is the weak link. Without that evidence it is purely people''s opinions of RM one way or the other.

[hogesar 9,615]

Irrespective of anything else, we''re currently defending well so it''s correct that he''s not in the team - the other defenders have done better and Zimmerman has been a pleasant surprise. Seems to know his limitations and his game benefits as a result. 

We won''t know if RM being out or in has made a significant difference unless we see him playing in this current structure. As it stands I doubt that would happen as there seem to be a couple preferred ahead of him.

On another note, wasn''t Franke one of our most expensive signings of the window? Hopefully he turns out to be a solid option although i''m not sure how he''ll get in the team yet.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

[quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Tootingyellow"]I don''t think anyone''s arguing that RM isn''t a great guy or hasn''t doesn''t done a great job for City over the years. He is simply no longer good enough imho and whilst I don''t think it''s directly attributable it''s difficult to overlook that fact that we have hardly conceded a goal since the Millwall game.[/quote]Why dissmiss the change in formation? The move to two holding midfielders is more significant than the personnel changes, no-one is saying the same about the other defenders from that game.

[/quote]

I would humbly suggest that its both and its not evil or having a go at Martin to point this out. he was regularly losing his man and our defence was consistently all over the place when he was in the side.

And yes i would also say the same about Franke who i think also played at Millwall? We have looked a lot better defensively since both Martin and Franke have not been in the side and since we tweaked the formation.

We also initially looked a lot better when we took Husband out and played Stiepermann at left back although i will admit that Husband''s more recent performances have seen a significant improvement and suggest he could yet do ok for us there.[/quote]One mans ''tweak'' is another mans ''significant change'', I''m going with the latter. [:D]

[/quote]

Its not been that significant. The formation was more or less the same we were just playing Maddison in the deeper lying role and he was getting forward more. Tettey is more natural in that role and having Trybull with his ability to break up the game and his reading of play has also helped hugely because he just pops up and breaks up the oppositions attacks. .

I still think though that you cannot ignore the change in personnel. We have consistently conceded headed goals or goals from crosses and knock downs whenever Martin has been at CB in the last 2 seasons. Since we changed it we''ve only let in one headed goal and that was from a free kick. There is less pointing and head scratching (although there were a couple of scrambles yesterday) and (apart from the first 10 yesterday when Stiepermann went walkabout) it just looks like positionally everyone is in the right place.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

[quote user="Chip20"]I see what you are saying, Rich T, but the point is that it is hardly an empiricle experiment is it? Sure the results co-incided with RM''s absence from the squad but the point others are making is that there were numerous other factors that have had an impact over the same period; why attribute it solely to RM''s absence? There have been at least five other changes at the same time; why not attribute the improvement in performance and result to one of them instead?

Fair enough, if RM were re-instated, everything else remains the same as the past few weeks and results suddenly take a nosedive then there would be evidence that RM is the weak link. Without that evidence it is purely people''s opinions of RM one way or the other.[/quote]

Its not down to ONE of the changes, its down to ALL of the changes. Thats not to say that each one has not helped though, including dropping Martin and indeed Naismith.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

[quote user="hogesar"]Irrespective of anything else, we''re currently defending well so it''s correct that he''s not in the team - the other defenders have done better and Zimmerman has been a pleasant surprise. Seems to know his limitations and his game benefits as a result. 

We won''t know if RM being out or in has made a significant difference unless we see him playing in this current structure. As it stands I doubt that would happen as there seem to be a couple preferred ahead of him.

On another note, wasn''t Franke one of our most expensive signings of the window? Hopefully he turns out to be a solid option although i''m not sure how he''ll get in the team yet.

[/quote]

he will get in the team tomorrow night Hogesar as Zimmermann presumably won;t be fit and Hanley is cup tied. We will presumably therefore either see Martin or Franke at CB tomorrow night although to judge either on a game against Arsenal would be very harsh.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

That’s exactly the point chip, no one knows if it’s coincidence or not and whether th me changed around the midfield was the biggest factor.

I always judge things on what I see, before he was left out/injured I was concerned with his positional sense and the way in which he lead the team. Now clearly that was just my view and others will see things differently and that is their right to do so of course.

I’m just enjoying the way in which we are playing, the unbeaten run and of course putting one over the binners 😂

[king canary 7,577]

Some people (Canary utd I''m looking at you) get unhealthily obsessed and the criticism of a player far out weighs what is deserved.

On the other hand some people are so unwilling to admit Martin was not very good that it gets maddening. So you get regular comments like ''if Martin had done what *insert defensive player here* just did we''d never hear the end of it'' ignoring the fact Martin got more stick for his mistakes because we consistently haemorrhaged goals with him in the defence (for well over a season).

The change of formation has helped no end but I don''t believe those who claim in this formation we could have played Martin and been just as solid defensively.

He''s a good bloke who has been a wonderful servant for the club and when he leaves (which I assume will happen at some point this season) he should get a good send off.

[king canary 7,577]

Also if you''re looking for a more statistical and objective view, it is no coincidence that both Whoscored and Squawka have him rated as our worst player in their overall ratings by a bit of a distance. I''m not a huge fan of those ratings mind but it is still interesting.

[andrew norwichcity 8]

Unfortunately its the end of the road for him here BUT he has done enough over the years that I think fans should avoid blaming him beyond a ''he shouldn''t be in the team'' type of way when he does play. Its obvious, hes older and after his illness he had a few years ago hes not been the same. As an experienced player who can play 2 positions hes been called upon more than we''d have liked and now we''ve got reinforcements I presume he will remain a backup for our subs. I have absolutely no issue playing him in the cup and hope he does.

[The gut 0]

When we got promoted from League 1 I did not think Russ would be able to cut it in the championship, he did. I thought the same when we got to the premier league, but he did not let us down. I think that is a very important factor when judging Russell Martin. I always think you cannot blame a player for not being good enough. All you can ask is that that they do their best. I think he has consitently done his best for us, he has probably played above and beyond his natural ability, therefore, he does not let us down. People who know or who have met him have nothing but praise for the man himself which speaks volumes as it has been that way for a long time.

I think it was great that he was with the fans down the road. That is a very brave thing to do when you are not exactly flavour of the month.

I do wonder what the current situation really is though. Is he all at sea, sold down the river, staying afloat in the pond, keeping his head above water in the lake or treading water in the pool? One thing seems clear is that at the moment he is not in the same boat as the others. Will he be pulled back in?

[king canary 7,577]

Would agree with all of that Gut. Some of the stick he got was unfair and it isn''t his fault he kept getting picked. It has never been a situation that you could say he''s not trying or he''s not giving it everything.

I think unfortunately for some he did become a bit of a symbol of our struggles- our defence spent a solid two seasons being a bit shit and yet he remained a starter no matter what. It isn''t fair on him but it happens.

[pete 318]

Apart from being a major part of our defence which conceded a great number of poor goals. Although not all entirely Russ''s fault was at fault plenty of times. I don''t think it unfair Russ gets the stick he does and extended contract after seasons of poor performances from our captain. Captain what has done to deserve that Accolade?

[Nuff Said 5,088]

Jesus, it never stops for the bloke, does it? A captain is picked on his ability to lead, motivate and so on, on AND off the pitch, not because he''s the best player in the team. There are many comments over the years from players about the respect they have for Russ, but ignore that because it doesn''t fit the script.

[Commando Canary 0]

[quote user="king canary"]Some people (Canary utd I''m looking at you) get unhealthily obsessed and the criticism of a player far out weighs what is deserved.

On the other hand some people are so unwilling to admit Martin was not very good that it gets maddening. So you get regular comments like ''if Martin had done what *insert defensive player here* just did we''d never hear the end of it'' ignoring the fact Martin got more stick for his mistakes because we consistently haemorrhaged goals with him in the defence (for well over a season).

The change of formation has helped no end but I don''t believe those who claim in this formation we could have played Martin and been just as solid defensively.

He''s a good bloke who has been a wonderful servant for the club and when he leaves (which I assume will happen at some point this season) he should get a good send off.[/quote]I don''t hide the fact that I''m not keen on him, i make no apologies for suggesting I think he should have been upgraded the day we walked away from Wembley. But every time i criticise him it''s been because of his footballing/captaining capabilities. I get bombarded (same old faces) with the response ''but he''s a thoroughly nice chap'', so what? What has this honestly got to do with what he produces on the playing field. So, I hate to disappoint, but i won''t be f-ing off just because you share a different opinion to me ''Han SAD Solo''!!!