Norwich will never be a bigger club than Ipswich

[hogesar 9,658]

Go Lakey!! [:D]

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="lincoln canary Golden Coppel"]

We''ve benefited from never stagnating in the same division. [/quote]

But that was my point - we haven''t allowed stagnation. There has always been something happening at Norwich to get something happening - in the last twenty years that has been down to the owners we have and they made strides in the first few years to get us where we needed to be.  Ten years Evans has been in charge and......nothing.  Your point about 2008-9 is not valid - if we had stayed up, the squad rebuilding would still have been necessary and who knows, we might have done well that next season anyway.

[/quote]

You know its rubbish. You now appear to be suggesting relegation was by design to prevent stagnation!?!

And although figures remained high during the the two seasons after relegation in 2006, they were set to drop. Season ticket renewals were very low at the end of the 2009 season. What that tells you is that fans were not that interested in another championship dead end season. Relegation to League one was not by design, but definitely helped re-ignite interest after the dust from relegation had settled. The opportunity to win more games than you lose is always a big pull, regardless of league.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Relegation by design? Where did you get that from?

As for interest dropping off in 2009, I suggest that the squad rebuilding that Gunn undertook would have happened anyway, even if we had stayed up. We would probably still have got Grant Holt and had Chris Martin as well as Hoolahan. That would have kept the interest up and things would have developed differently - how, is anybody''s guess.

How do you explain the large level of support being maintained during the run up to 2009? Your spin seems to be negative for the sake of it. Accept it - Norwich is in a far healthier position than Ipswich, financially, ethically and on the pitch and has been for twenty years, even including the fallow years. There is no sign of that being different any time soon.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

From here...

''But that was my point - we haven''t allowed stagnation. There has always been something happening at Norwich to get something happening''

Its exactly how I read it originally to...

''We would probably still have got Grant Holt'' - also thats not true - wasnt the money effectively from season tickets rebates not being taken?

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="lincoln canary Golden Coppel"]Keep it simple and factual.There will never be a huge amount of difference between the two clubs.[/quote]No self respecting fan would ever big up the binners whilst knocking our own club.And that is a simple fact.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="lincoln canary Golden Coppel"]Keep it simple and factual.There will never be a huge amount of difference between the two clubs.[/quote]I would suggest that £100m is a fair difference12 season ticket holders12,500 fans at gamesa squad worth tens of millions against one worth tens of poundsI''m sure if those figures were in favour of the paupers they would be regularly held up as prove of how much bigger they are

[nutty nigel 7,533]

The fact that the binners don''t even try to argue against Nelson''s words should tell you a you need to know. If some of you closet binners want it spelled out again be my guest :-

We are better than them. We have better players than them. We are a better club than them.

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="lincoln canary Golden Coppel"]Keep it simple and factual.There will never be a huge amount of difference between the two clubs.[/quote]No self respecting fan would ever big up the binners whilst knocking our own club.And that is a simple fact.[/quote]

Come on, don''t be stupid. I''m not bigging up the Binners or knocking us.

I''m merely pointing out (without yellow and green tinted spectacles) that in reality there isn''t a huge amount of difference between the two clubs. Both similarly sized, both clubs have always flirted between the top two divisions, we''ve never been more than a division apart, currently we''re separated by a point and last season we drew both games.

Yes i think we are probably better financially, but then again our liabilities are greater (wage bill etc).

I''m being realistic, simple as that. You ask any neutral outside of East Anglia and pretty much every football fan would struggle to find a tangible difference in status of both clubs.

Like Derby and Forest.. can you tell me who is the bigger/better side? There''s nothing in it.

On the flip side, currently you can place Southampton well ahead of Portsmouth. There is a clear gulf between the two clubs.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

So Golden Binboy...

Give us a reason why we are not a better club than them?

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Relegation by design? Where did you get that from?

As for interest dropping off in 2009, I suggest that the squad rebuilding that Gunn undertook would have happened anyway, even if we had stayed up. We would probably still have got Grant Holt and had Chris Martin as well as Hoolahan. That would have kept the interest up and things would have developed differently - how, is anybody''s guess.

How do you explain the large level of support being maintained during the run up to 2009? Your spin seems to be negative for the sake of it. Accept it - Norwich is in a far healthier position than Ipswich, financially, ethically and on the pitch and has been for twenty years, even including the fallow years. There is no sign of that being different any time soon.[/quote]

From here...

''But that was my point - we haven''t allowed stagnation. There has always been something happening at Norwich to get something happening''

Norwich and Ipswich are similarly placed in the football hierarchy. That''s the truth of it. You mention finances, but our liabilities are much greater. Surely the financial argument can only really work if we sat with money in the back, which we''re not.

As for the ethical argument, i''m not really sure where you''ve plucked that one from.

You can hate Ipswich, as I do, but if you wish to have a proper debate about the two clubs you have to look at things objectively and not with a preconceived view. If we we''re miles better than Ipswich we wouldn''t be sat in the same division as them, just one point apart.

[Bill 1,788]

Yes i think we are probably better financially, but then again our liabilities are greater (wage bill etc).

Absolute nonsense.Probably better ! We are at least £100m better off. Nothing probable about that, nor our annual income aside from parachute payments.It is not the past, that is irrelevant. It is now. Imagine going to a fruit and veg competition and stating that although your marrow was half the size of the others it should be judged on it''s size a few months back.There are numerous tangible differences. The attendances. The ST sales. The quality of the squads, the youth set up. The ownership of the ground AND the training ground. Pretty much everything that is tangible.There is a clear gulf between us and the paupers ... just as there is between your ears it would see.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

Just one...

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]So Golden Binboy...

Give us a reason why we are not a better club than them?[/quote]

Golden Binboy... Very clever Nutty, well done.

Personally I think we are a better club than them. I love Norwich and hate Ipswich. I hate playing Ipswich, because the risk of defeat hurts like mad.

But if we are having a proper discussion about the two clubs, with all things considered, Norwich and Ipswich are similar sized clubs, with a similar status in the football pyramid.

Currently we enjoy bigger attendances... but our situations are different. Put us in the same situation as Ipswich and I believe our attendance wouldn''t be a great deal higher.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

In terms of the "size" of the clubs there is nothing in it, never really has been and probably never will be. we are similar sized clubs.

We are currently the "better" club in that we have done better now for quite a while, we have more money and we have a better quality set of players (although whether we play better as a team is less clear cut). We have been more successful than them over the last 30 years.

That, though could well change quite quickly if we don''t get back up this season. Any advantage we have in terms of having better players will fall away very quickly and there will be nothing between us, indeed if anything we may be at a financial disadvantage within a couple of seasons once we run out of players to sell.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

But we''re not having that discussion are we? You''re just defending them with hyperthetical arguments rather than the facts as they are.

If we are considering things perhaps their ripping off of local businesses and charities should be considered. Does that make them bigger? Or that Brown paper envelope full of drug money went up to the north east? Does that make them bigger?

[nutty nigel 7,533]

Even Jimbo thinks we''re better and he feckin'' hates everything about us....

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]But we''re not having that discussion are we? You''re just defending them with hyperthetical arguments rather than the facts as they are.

If we are considering things perhaps their ripping off of local businesses and charities should be considered. Does that make them bigger? Or that Brown paper envelope full of drug money went up to the north east? Does that make them bigger?[/quote]

See Jim Smiths post above. That''s exactly the page I''m on.

I''m not being hypothetical about anything, i''m trying to be objective about the position of both clubs.

[Bill 1,788]

''I''m merely pointing out (without yellow and green tinted spectacles)

that in reality there isn''t a huge amount of difference between the two

clubs.''or ''but our situations are different. Put us in the same situation as Ipswich ...''dear me

[nutty nigel 7,533]

No you''re not. You''re using hypothetical arguments that basically say if we were like them they''d be as good as us.

We''re not like them.

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="Rhubarb"]''I''m merely pointing out (without yellow and green tinted spectacles)

that in reality there isn''t a huge amount of difference between the two

clubs.''or ''but our situations are different. Put us in the same situation as Ipswich ...''dear me[/quote]

Your twisting words.

The situation surrounding attendances. Ipswich currently suffer from low attendance due to their consistent league status. Our varying up and down league status has actually helped to keep our attendances high.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

So according to you the fact that we''ve had success which means we have bigger attendances counts for nothing because if we hadn''t had that success we''d be like them. And that''s being objective...

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]No you''re not. You''re using hypothetical arguments that basically say if we were like them they''d be as good as us.

We''re not like them.[/quote]

Doctor.....

My view is Norwich and Ipswich are both similarly sized clubs. The thread is about club size and that is my view. I feel its a well supported view too.

In terms of being ''better'' we currently edge it. But the gulf is no where near as big as you and others make out. I remember how arrogant Ipswich fans were, waving there £20 notes about, that soon back fired. Lets not be as cock sure, eh?

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]So according to you the fact that we''ve had success which means we have bigger attendances counts for nothing because if we hadn''t had that success we''d be like them. And that''s being objective...[/quote]

Hmmm... but its not always about success. How about when we were relegated to League one? Looking at the low level of season ticket renewals prior to the end of the relegation season, suggests had we stayed up our attendances would have suffered.

[Bill 1,788]

''The situation surrounding attendances. Ipswich currently suffer from low attendance due to their consistent league status. Our varying up and down league status has actually helped to keep our attendances high''they are only low because you are comparing them to ours which is the whole point ! ! !and mostly our "varying up and down league status"  has been one of being above them by a lot or above them by a fair amount.It is that constant which causes the difference

[nutty nigel 7,533]

The grubby little oiks waved fivers. And they didn''t even have one each. And you have more clubs than Jack Nicklaus and none of them are bigger or better than us.

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]The grubby little oiks waved fivers. And they didn''t even have one each. And you have more clubs than Jack Nicklaus and none of them are bigger or better than us.[/quote]

Nope, Just Norwich Nutty.

[Bill 1,788]

Size is measured as it stands now.Nothing to do with the past, so stop keep warbling on about how we were roughly equal in size.A domestic cat and a lion were the same size at a certain time in their lives. It does not mean they are now, nor should be thought as such.So stop posting up absurd attempts at bigging up our impoverished neighbours

[Jim Smith 2,317]

On the attendances side of things its obviously in part linked to success over the recent period, its in part due to some clever pricing/marketing getting people into the habit of attending Carrow Road and it also in part due to supply and demand.

From recollection, our season ticket sales and attendances really picked up when we redeveloped the South Stand because there was a period, coinciding with things picking up on the pitch, where basically the only way you could guarantee getting into Carrow Road was to have a season ticket. Many people bought season tickets for the first time during that period and with a spell of success coming soon after they held onto those season tickets and got into the habit of regularly attending Carrow Road, particularly a younger generation of fans who are now all in their 20s and early 30s. Once you are in that habit its hard to break, particularly if events on the pitch remain as eventful as they have for us over the last decade or so.

Ironically here the sc*m probably suffer a little from having a bigger ground meaning that you can get a decent seat for any game as a casual fan. Because of this they have never had the same level of season ticket support as us and following their prolonged spell in this division fans are bored and have drifted away.

I do agree with Lincoln that if we stay down for a while then the same will happen to us although i think our core support now is stronger and many will just continue to renew their ST''s year on year because its what we do. i know this because i do it despite the fact I will probably only be able to get to 6-10 games at Carrow Road this season.

[hogesar 9,658]

Go Nutty go! [:D]

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="lincoln canary Golden Coppel"]As for the ethical argument, i''m not really sure where you''ve plucked that one from.[/quote]Let''s try this........March 2011 - "Council deputy leader John Carnall says the club

have so far not paid them back rent of just over £500,000 and that the

situation could ultimately result in legal action"Dec 2013 - "Town joint-managing director Ian Milne has insisted that Town are on a

sound financial footing despite the club failing to pay local suppliers

and players’ agents on time." Feb 2016 - "A club spokesperson told TWTD in a statement: “A service provider issued

a court petition for non-payment between Christmas and New Year whereby

their automated process accelerated this action despite an agreement

for payment to be made early January."

The service provider turned out to be the taxman. So that statement was a barefaced lie.

And just recently.......

"Ipswich Town Football Club has won its appeal in a battle over the cost of policing matches."

So, as well as subsidising their ground, local taxpayers are having to foot the bill for matchday policing now.

You say ethics doesn''t come into it, but when did you last see NCFC with these sort of headlines?