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dylanisabaddog

Norwich will never be a bigger club than Ipswich

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So says Ray Crawford, former Ipswich centre forward. It says a lot about their recent history that Ipswich has wheeled out an 81 year old to make this claim

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Hate to say it being a Norwich fan in his time he was a brilliant centre forward watched him against us on numerous occasions.But his comments are nothing but hot air

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[quote user="dylanisabaddog"]So says Ray Crawford, former Ipswich centre forward. It says a lot about their recent history that Ipswich has wheeled out an 81 year old to make this claim[/quote]

Pi$witch permanently tuned into the History channel.

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Measuring how ''big'' clubs are is a pretty tedious debate.

What''s your criteria???

Trophies.

Years in the top flight since year dot.

Years in the Premier League.

Cup runs.

Years in European competition.

Past players / managers.

Current players / managers.

Ground capacity.

Current wealth.

Potential.

I honestly think that if you asked most footy fans outside of East Anglia they would say that Norwich are the bigger club because current status trumps history right now.

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The crazy thing about this is that none of stupid binners will address what Nelson actually said which was : -
“I know it’s an important match for us and for the fans because it’s a derby, and we go there to win the game because we are better than them, we have better players than them, we are a better club than them, so we go there for the win."
Their counter claims seem to be that they think they''re a bigger club than us which can''t really be proven either way.
And that they have better history than us if you go back nearly 40 years. which is true.
However they seem to agree that we are better than them with better players than them and are a better club than them. They know it would be futile to argue the points Nelson made like I know it would be futile to argue about their history nearly 40 years ago. If they beat us on Sunday it won''t change anything. If they win home and away and finish above us then maybe...
But they''ll always be a cheating thieving lowlife club. Something else that can''t be argued....

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All this big club, little club nonsense is just that nonsense.

We are both medium sized clubs. East Anglia has never been a hotbed of footballing pedigree.

A game which initially prospered in the cloth cap industrial northern and midland areas and in London was a late developer in rural areas such as Norfolk and Suffolk.

That it has moved away somewhat from it''s traditional (nb. traditional) working class roots and become a social occasion rather than a ritual and relatively inexpensive outlet from the weekly grind is reflected in the healthy support our club currently generates, through thick and thin.

Ipswich Town''s ephemeral and rather freakish season in the sun pales into insignificance in historical terms when compared to the genuine football-history of the likes of the Preston North Ends, the Huddersfields, the Boltons and many others.

In today''s new world "size" as it is is assessed by wealth, by support and by the amount of seasons spent at the top table. That''s the way it is now. They are the criteria.

In all those aspects we outstrip ITFC by quite a bit. The binners with their obsession with their history, embarrassing as it is, don''t like it and dismiss these factors as readily as they do their fall from grace with administration and the subsequent shafting of local businesses and charities.

As I have stated before this obsession is all they have now and reveals nothing more than an innate inferiority complex.

Reeling out a hero from the distant past in such a way speaks volumes.

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I replied in a FB post about it... how can you claim to be a big club if you only get gates of 14000...? I mean, the only example of a club claiming to be big and attracting gates of less than 18000 is Monaco...and the greater part of monaco is filled with rich folk who don''t like leaving their villa...

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I’m fortunate to travel the world far and wide a few times a year, everyone I speak to has heard of Norwich, from the Far East, the Middle East and the America’s, very few have heard of Ipswich! Why would they, they haven’t been on the global stage for a generation.

It’s ridiculous they rely on past glories, a very nice accolade to have, but they have been left behind.

Our club has been run appallingly over the past few years, if we don’t get promoted this season or next we could find ourselves in a similar position to our dim witted neighbours.

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As long as we keep getting the right results on the pitch I couldn''t care less who is the ''bigger club'', it''s a un-important label.

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[quote user="TCCANARY"]As long as we keep getting the right results on the pitch I couldn''t care less who is the ''bigger club'', it''s a un-important label.

[/quote]

A very good point TC ...

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Agree with TC Canary.They can be bigger, better, brighter and with a more glorious history for all they like. As a stick to beat me with, that means nothing. It''s a desperate argument of infant playground mentality wielded by grown men with an infantile mentality.If being the biggest, best and most illustrious was all that mattered in the game, we''d all be supporting Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City et al or a whole host of others who can boast that they''re a bigger club, a more famous club or one with a more trophy laden history.Preston fans can look back on a history that has seen them win two League Championships and two FA Cups. Wolves fans can (but don''t) bathe in a glorious past that has seen them win three League Championships, four FA Cups and two League Cups. Aston Villa FFS, seven league titles, seven FA Cups and one European Cup.Don''t see many of their fans focused on any of that, even though, if a Binner, for whatever reason, waved the old "one League title, one FA Cup and one UEFA Cup" gloat at them, they''d laugh and suggest that they came back once they had a history worth talking about.As would fans of Nottingham Forest, Leeds, Blackpool and a whole host of other clubs either in the same league as us or beneath it.Portsmouth. Two league championships, two FA Cups. Yep, they chant about that all day at Fratton Park. Except they don''t. Not even at Southampton fans. Because, right now, Southampton are in the ascendancy and have been for the last few years. And that bothers Pompey fans even if Southampton have won "just" one FA Cup. You''d think Portsmouth fans would drag all of that up and try to rub the Saints fans noses in it, "...look at our past, look at the trophies we''ve won, everyone has heard of us". Except they don''t. Because, right here and right now, Saints are the bigger and more well known club. Pompey fans care for the here and now, not a sepia tinted past. Ray Crawford used to play for them as well. But no-one has thought to ask him to write a piece or offer his comments on how Portsmouth are a "far bigger club" than Southampton. That said, for such an Ipswich legend, Crawford lives just outside of Portsmouth and considers them "his" club. Always has. I know this because I''ve met and interviewed him. He chuckled when I told him I was a Norwich fan but conceded that, "...you''ve been doing a lot better than Ipswich for a long time now". He didn''t say ''us''. He reserves that for Portsmouth. Nice chap who most football fans remember and talk to about his goals for Colchester against Leeds in 1971. So let Ipswich bang on and on and on about glories past and trophies won. It''s all they''ve got. Clutching at straws as they say...   

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As long as it is silly, meaningless banter then it it fills column inches and something to post about midweek.

Other than that, I couldn''t care less. We are probably a bigger club than Stockport but I admire the 2K or so who turn out to watch them rather than jump on the Manchester Love Boat. As far as they are concerned, their club matters.

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Player X has an identical offer from two teams; Team A and Team B. Same wage, same likelihood of getting into the team, all things are equal.

Team A has spent 14 years in the 2nd tier, have invested very little in their playing squad, have seen their fans abandon them in droves and have a shady owner seemingly intent on asset stripping the club. They suffered a dismal season last year, with a backwards thinking, if effective, manager.

Team B have spent 4 out of the last 6 years in the top league, investing quite heavily in the squad, buying recognisable, if not top quality, players. They regularly fill their ground and have put in place a modern, forward thinking structure, and have a young energetic coach.

If you were Player X, who would you sign for?

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[quote user="kirku"]Player X has an identical offer from two teams; Team A and Team B. Same wage, same likelihood of getting into the team, all things are equal.

Team A has spent 14 years in the 2nd tier, have invested very little in their playing squad, have seen their fans abandon them in droves and have a shady owner seemingly intent on asset stripping the club. They suffered a dismal season last year, with a backwards thinking, if effective, manager.

Team B have spent 4 out of the last 6 years in the top league, investing quite heavily in the squad, buying recognisable, if not top quality, players. They regularly fill their ground and have put in place a modern, forward thinking structure, and have a young energetic coach.

If you were Player X, who would you sign for?[/quote]

You''ve classed Ipswich as the A team, and Norwich the B team. I can''t believe you think Ipswich are a bigger club...

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Who is bigger? Burnley or Blackburn?

One is currently in the Premier League, and the other is in League One, but has won a Premier League.

Who is bigger, Forest or Leicester?

One is stuck in the Championship but has a few European Cups to their name. The other has recently won the Premier League.

Its almost as an irrelevant debate as who is better, Messi or Ronaldo. It can be argued for days, weeks and years with no real definitive answer...

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History is such a dim argument.

Keep it simple and factual. Both Norwich and Ipswich are similarly placed in the same division. Last season both fixtures resulted in a draw. Therefore its reasonable to suggest both teams are of similar ability and status.

There will never be a huge amount of difference between the two clubs. In terms of league standing and positions, have we ever been more than a league apart? Not in my lifetime, and we''ve shared the same league for many of those years.

Yes Norwich fans attend more games, but your kidding yourself if you think that will remain the case after 10 years in this division. The up and down nature of Norwich''s fortunes since the 2002 playoff final has kept fans interest stimulated. I remember the the late 90''s, we''d struggle to get 13000. And that was after 5/6 seasons of dead end championship (div one) football.

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[quote user="lincoln canary Golden Coppel"] its reasonable to suggest both teams are of similar ability and status.

There will never be a huge amount of difference between the two clubs. [/quote]

No, sorry, but just no.The reason why Norwich have such a big fan base is because of the current owners and the way they transformed the club over the first few years of their tenure, culminating in the two great championship seasons under Worthington. Them coming on board when they did with the financial help they were able to give set us on the road to success.  Once the fire had been well and truly rekindled during the Cardiff play off season, the fanbase has been very strong, even during 2005-2009 in a very dodgy period.  Take Evans - many Ipswich supporters will have lost interest purely because of him being in charge. That in itself shows what a poor club they are, having had to resort to having someone like him in charge - and they are reaping the consequences.  Our development over the last twenty years has been phenomenal, stadium wise,  fanbase wise and football wise.  Even with all the problems we have had, our club is still solvent, still forwards looking and still with a large fanbase.   We would only lose that if we got in the kind of owner that Evans is, like Hull too, who struggled for support even though they were in the top flight because of their owner.   Ipswich have lost a lot of their supporters in a big way and they will struggle to get that back as long as Evans is there.  He is not the kind of person a lot of people want at the head of their club.   No wonder they are envious of us, we are a progressive club, able to bounce back time after time and have taken our supporters with us in that journey through all the ups and downs.  Ipswich are not on a journey - they are stuck, stuck in a situation they can''t do anything about, with a dubious owner who no self respecting supporter would want to be associated with. So there is no way that you could say that the clubs are similar in any way.  They may have been in the past, but with us having developed on sustainable lines and been resilient in the face of setbacks over the last twenty years - and their lack of any kind of progress or even any real ups and downs in the last twenty years, has seen them fall away in status compared to us - and that won''t change unless they get some kind of decent owner on board, which doesn''t look likely.  We may be in the same league, even nearby in position, but as a club, they are nowhere near us. 

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LDC - Your spouting rubbish there I''m affraid.

10 consecutive years in this league and you think we''ll keep high attendances, what, because Delia is in charge?! Rubbish.

We''ve benefited from never stagnating in the same division. If we''d stayed up in 2008-009 in the championship, I same with reasonable confidence our attendance would have been lower than in League one.

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[quote user="lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel)"]LDC - Your spouting rubbish there I''m affraid.

10 consecutive years in this league and you think we''ll keep high attendances, what, because Delia is in charge?! Rubbish.

We''ve benefited from never stagnating in the same division. If we''d stayed up in 2008-009 in the championship, I same with reasonable confidence our attendance would have been lower than in League one.

*I say with reasonable confidence our attendances would have been lower than the averages we achieved in League One.

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[quote user="lincoln canary Golden Coppel"]

We''ve benefited from never stagnating in the same division. [/quote]

But that was my point - we haven''t allowed stagnation. There has always been something happening at Norwich to get something happening - in the last twenty years that has been down to the owners we have and they made strides in the first few years to get us where we needed to be.  Ten years Evans has been in charge and......nothing.  Your point about 2008-9 is not valid - if we had stayed up, the squad rebuilding would still have been necessary and who knows, we might have done well that next season anyway.

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Following relegation from the Premier League in 94/95, we spent 10 years in Division One and attendances dwindled, sometimes to the point of 12/13K. It was only after the play-off season that interest started to stir some to come back and get us up to our big crowds. If we spend another long stretch in this division, crowds will inevitably decline. We’ve struggled to sellout most of this season’s home games already.

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]Following relegation from the Premier League in 94/95, we spent 10 years in Division One and attendances dwindled, sometimes to the point of 12/13K. It was only after the play-off season that interest started to stir some to come back and get us up to our big crowds. If we spend another long stretch in this division, crowds will inevitably decline. We’ve struggled to sellout most of this season’s home games already.[/quote]

Sorry Hooly, statistics show a gradual trend of a rise in attendance from the low point of relegation, only three or four years before people started to buy in to the club again.  If as Lincoln reckons, support will drop off, why did it not happen then and more relevantly, why did support stay high during the Grant/Roeder period?

2009

24.543

 

 

2008

24.523

 

 

2007

24.545

 

 

2006

24.952

 

 

2005

24.350

 

 

2004

18.987

 

 

2003

20.353

 

 

2002

18.644

 

 

2001

16.525

 

 

2000

15.539

 

 

1999

15.761

 

 

1998

14.444

 

 

1997

14.719

 

 

1996

14.581

 

 

1995

18.625

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2009       

24.543

 

 

2008

24.523

 

 

2007

24.545

 

 

2006

24.952

 

 

2005

24.350

 

 

2004

18.987

 

 

2003

20.353

 

 

2002

18.644

 

 

2001

16.525

 

 

2000

15.539

 

 

1999

15.761

 

 

1998

14.444

 

 

1997

14.719

 

 

1996

14.581

 

 

1995

18.625

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