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Hoola Han Solo

Vrancic

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[quote user="Yellow Wal"]lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) wrote the following post at 14/10/2017 7:33 PM:

......... He''s twice the player of Howson though.....

------------------------------------------------------------------------

do you mean the Howson who was an unused sub today?[/quote]

Yes, that''s the one.

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"Ratings are based on a unique, comprehensive statistical algorithm, calculated live during the game. There are over 200 raw statistics included in the calculation of a player''’s/team’''s rating, weighted according to their influence within the game. Every event of importance is taken into account, with a positive or negative effect on ratings weighted in relation to its area on the pitch and its outcome. An example: An attempted dribble (event) in the opposition’s final third (area of pitch) that is successful (outcome) will have a positive effect on a player''s rating." (Whoscored.com)

Today Vrancic earned the highest rating of anyone on the pitch. The suggestion that he contributed little apart from the odd good pass is far from the truth. "Eyes wide shut" is the phrase that springs to mind.

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Reminds me of Andrew Surman. Doesn''t always catch the eye of fans but coaches love him for his ability to cover ground/do the unheralded work and regularly play key passes. Even if he isn''t the one flying into the tackles or finishing off moves he''s always involved, covers every blade of grass and has that special pass that can make something out of nothing.

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Vranic can play a good pass occasionally!

That''s all he does!

He lacks the energy, drive and tenacity to ever be effective enough at this level or the next League up!

I get the impression Farkes only playing him to try and justify signing him!

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[quote user="kingsway"]Vranic can play a good pass occasionally!

That''s all he does!

He lacks the energy, drive and tenacity to ever be effective enough at this level or the next League up!

I get the impression Farkes only playing him to try and justify signing him![/quote]"Ineffective" players don''t earn high ratings, as Vrancic did today. Maybe Farke has a better appreciation of what constitutes effectiveness.

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It''s not what he does WITH the ball, that has prompted this. Statistics do not take into consideration what he does WITHOUT the ball (apart from, where he is on the pitch).

Watch what he does (which is what a few of us are talking about) when he hasn''t got the ball. I saw him, with space all around him, yesterday, when he was the obvious/nearest/potentially the most influential on the attack, player, but he did not make use of the space/made it easy for the defender.

He is (in my mind) a good player, but he could contribute even more, to the team. This is only being highlighted because we should have won the game, and we are looking at missed opportunities to win the game, every point is vital.

It is exciting, to me, that we have a player like Vrancic, who, if he could contribute even more, to the team plan, would make it awesome, and with the likes of Pritchard, to come back ,and possibly play/challenge for, that role, then the future is VERY bright, with 2 players of that standard, in that position.

My thoughts are definitely NOT to look for a scapegoat, that is not how I look at things. People may know of my ramblings about Redmond, and the Murphy boys, over recent times. That is because they could contribute even more to the game, than they have done/did.

My mantra is for people to not waste an opportunity in life/no regrets.

There was a lot to be positive about yesterday, but we didn''t win the game, so we need to brush up on bits and pieces (Vrancic was not the only one that could improve on their performance from yesterday), to improve, and take 3 points next time .

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not the best performer for-sure but far from being the worst. for me was marginally better than maddison.

Vrancic had a good range of passing, creating more openings than others yesterday, and made more tackles and won the ball back more than trybull or reed. He is adapting to the championship and looks like a decent midfield option to have, who is likely to continue to improve.

He does look lightweight (but so does maddison) and isnt blessed with pace but in a day when we struggled to break a deep sitting team down I am not sure they were key. But he isnt loved and forgiven his sins like the sainted maddison or trybull.

But he is a damned good scapegoat.

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[quote user="westcoastcanary"]

"Ratings are based on a unique, comprehensive statistical algorithm, calculated live during the game. There are over 200 raw statistics included in the calculation of a player''’s/team’''s rating, weighted according to their influence within the game. Every event of importance is taken into account, with a positive or negative effect on ratings weighted in relation to its area on the pitch and its outcome. An example: An attempted dribble (event) in the opposition’s final third (area of pitch) that is successful (outcome) will have a positive effect on a player''s rating." (Whoscored.com)

Today Vrancic earned the highest rating of anyone on the pitch. The suggestion that he contributed little apart from the odd good pass is far from the truth. "Eyes wide shut" is the phrase that springs to mind.

[/quote]Pretty much sums it up for me. He made some wonderful passes and created a a gilt-edged chance for Wildshutt and put in his shift with the defensive part of the role.I guess some people don''t see it, because they don''t see it?

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Badger, et al, read my post again. It is NOT about him with the ball.

We could have threads about a few players, from yesterday''s game, and how they could improve, to make this team really motor on, and be a force in this Division. I like the look of Vrancic, I think he is a very good player, and with the likes of Pritchard, to add to it, we are in a good place, but we want to be in a great place, and not miss out on opportunities like yesterday.

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I''m amazed at how many fans get blinkered by a few nice passes, probably the fact he plays for his Country yet do not see the complete picture with the way too lightweight Vranic!

We will be to soft in this Division while Vranic plays cause he makes it to easy for the opposition by not closing them down, not covering the defence and the complete lack of energy. He also looks very poor positionally cause hes not a winger, not an attacking midfielder and certainly not a defensive one either, all of which effects our shape!

Our recent good run has come about because Farke realised that we weren''t closing down the opposition previously like Millwall and Villa away and needed to start pressing more and protecting the back four with an improved team attitude towards defending as a unit. Since we''ve been doing that thanks largely to messrs Tryball and Tetty we have been much better!

A poor workrate won''t get you results often at any level of professional football or indeed any level of football!

I think the fans sticking up for Vranic get sucked into wanting this Eutopia scenario where we beat teams by casually strolling about playing Arsenal like football without breaking in to a sweat, not tackling, non contact and dribbling the ball into the net.

I suppose these very same fans are still attributing our recent good run solely down to Russell Martin not being around and nothing else!

As for stats, they are far from being the be all and end all when analysing games. A perfect example is the procession stats yesterday which we had 70 odd % of it but most of that was tapping it around at the back and going nowhere!

I prey that Vranic doesn''t play next Sunday cause Ip s h ite will realise playing against someone who doesn''t want to compete and gives them space and time!

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Ratings are a wonderful thing for anyone not at a game. They can give good debate for those that only watched it on the radio. They are such a tremendous asset to the game, and help pundits give weight to their theories. They are developing hugely and have come on leaps and bounds since someone just sat there with a tick sheet counting how many times a player touched the ball.

They are however a load of old tosh to the fans at the game who see the whole pitch, the movement and position of a player in relationship to the position and movement of the ball, his team mates and opposition on the pitch. That is where true footballing fans sense and feel what should be happening.

There is no goat to be scaped here, my personal opinion is yesterday I would rather have seen Wes interacting with Madders from the start, than vranic who has provided little excitement or good value for my pound. He’s alright I guess but nothing worth shouting about yet.

I’m happy for those that get good value for their internet subscriptions with player ratings, but there is little point in all of us debating two different forms of entertainment within the same thread.

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]Anyone know the point of him other than the occasional good pass? Literally does nothing else[/quote]The point of Vranic is so people like you have something to moan after rescuing a point with the last kick of the game. It''s obvious, after 8 games without defeat that Farke has no clue about what he''s doing. I think that the best option is that we sack him and Webber and get you and Big Vince to run the team from next Saturday.

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What was I saying about blinkered fans, EG, "Iwans big toe!"

Great post "The Gut!"

You have perfectly summed up the difference between seasoned fans who got to games and understand how football at this level works and those who are relative newcomers and/or don''t often go to games!

I hope Vranic proves me wrong and in fairness he has improved but I can''t see the improvement being enough to be much benefit to Norwich City!

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It''s silly to get into drawn-out arguments about this, but it seems that some recent commentators on here are so expert in their knowledge of football that 1. They have a better understanding of matches than other fans who think that they see things ... but are obviously delusional2. They understand the dynamics of the game better than the manager and the coaching staff3. Have a depth of understanding that supersedes mere facts that teams around the world pay millions for. For example, presumably the through ball to Wildshutt was the "wrong sort of chance," which only they, with their superior understanding, can appreciate.The only other interpretation is that they are blinded by their own inability to spot what is happening but still bombastically assert that they know better than other fans, the coaching team and the facts. If this were to be the case, arguing with them would be a waste of breath. 

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The man pick a pass. He doesn''t play little one twos like Maddison or Wes. In a congested midfield he isn''t in his best position. But away from home with more space, he can be a good link man.

He is getting an unfair barrage at the moment. Carrick or Matic have probably never won POTS.

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Good posy Badger and kind of sums up the futile attempts im making in defending Vrancic on one of the facebook fan pages, where he is getting dogs abuse.

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Kingsway:

"You have perfectly summed up the difference between seasoned fans who got to games and understand how football at this level works and those who are relative newcomers and/or don''t often go to games!"

I assume you are in the former category then Kingsway? Can you sum up the difference between "seasoned fans who understand how football works at this level", and actual professionals like Farke and his team who seem to disagree with your opinion? After all Vrancic was left on for the full 99 minutes of the match.

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I agree Badger, some sensible points.

I have to admit I am definitely in the camp of thinking I have a better understanding of most other fans. I go to games with plenty that definitely don’t understand it as good as me. Plenty who have never played, and however much they think they know just cannot relate to what happens in a footballing brain. I know from what I read on here that many think they have a good idea but, it’s clear they do not. I respect I may have different opinions to players of similar ilk, that is football.

However, by the same token, I would never claim to have a better understanding than any professional, that would be hypocritical. It is fair to say though that just being a professional would not make them right, there are obviously difference of opinions. Difference of opinions, between professionals. Whether we like it or not there is a hierarchy system of value of opinions. There has to be.

Those that did not see the game and argue their opinion with match stats are way, way down the list.

Now, I’m old and fat and occasionally play. Statistics would show that I play some fantastic passes, unbelievable assists, terrific shots on target, maybe stunning goals but overall I am a liability to the team because I can hardly effing move. I should only play when there really is no better option. I see some similarities with me and Vrančić

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[" Badger"]It''s silly to get into drawn-out arguments about this, but it seems that some recent commentators on here are so expert in their knowledge of football that 1. They have a better understanding of matches than other fans who think that they see things ... but are obviously delusional2. They understand the dynamics of the game better than the manager and the coaching staff3. Have a depth of understanding that supersedes mere facts that teams around the world pay millions for. For example, presumably the through ball to Wildshutt was the "wrong sort of chance," which only they, with their superior understanding, can appreciate.The only other interpretation is that they are blinded by their own inability to spot what is happening but still bombastically assert that they know better than other fans, the coaching team and the facts. If this were to be the case, arguing with them would be a waste of breath.

Beings you are likely referring to my posts then I''ll answer your points!

1, Maybe from what I read on here sometimes!

I''m not deluded by the modern era of stats which another poster rightly says doesn''t always give the right impression of a game. I''m also not delusional by a foreign name, playing for your Country and the odd decent pass which are totally cancelled out by a lack of workrate and energy!

2, Maybe again sometimes it might seem that way, but the day a manager or a coach at Norwich whose paid a fortune for there expertise in football knows less than me then the clubs in serious trouble but their expertise doesn''t mean they are always right!

3, No!

Anyway I doubt we paid millions for Vranic. That through ball to Wildshut was a brilliant pass but his lack of energy and tenacity is very poor and ultimately poor and like I said before nullifies a few good passes!

I''m confident that after 40 years of watching Norwich all over Britain, Europe and Asia and many other levels of football live over 40 years and playing the game, that I trust my gut instinct and judgement on most occasions and look at the complete picture when analysing a player!

Your saying that an odd good pass by Vranic makes up for all his deficiencies!

If we had that standpoint on every payer then Andy Hughes from a decade ago would be one of the clubs all time greats because of his workrate and tenacity ignoring the fact that play with the ball at his feet was poor the majority of the time!

I want every player whos pulls on the yellow and green to be brilliant and productive. We all know that isn''t going to happen. I truly hope that Vranic proves me wrong but I can''t see him being more than a one or two season experiment that ultimately didn''t work out.

If Vranic suddenly develops pace, gains more energy and more desire which compliments his good ability with the ball at his feet then he''ll be a wonder player for us, probably be sold and I''ll come on here and say well done and he proved me wrong but that look unlikely.

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Ok so this might be quite long but here goes....

Regarding yesterday- Vrancic wasn''t bad but I don''t think the game suited his style of play. In a different situation having a player who slows down the play can be of great help- if Wildschut takes his chance and Hull have to attack then having someone to take the sting out of a frantic game is perfect. However going behind and especially after the red card Hull had no desire to attack and Vrancic constantly slowing play down played right into their hands.

Playing against 10 men and chasing the game you need to move the ball quickly to try and pull players out of position and tire them out. Every time we slowed the play down Hull were able to get back into position. Having someone like Wes on the pitch, whose instinct is to turn and look forward when he gets the ball or even Trybull who can break up play and move it forward swiftly would be better suited.

In a longer term context I''m just not quite sure where he fits in this system. This nominal right wing position he was in today doesn''t really work for me. It reminds me of when we used to play Howson out there- the natural instinct is to go inside rather than stay wide making us compact but also quite easy to defend against as the middle gets crowded. Too often today Pinto would get to the halfway line, look for support and Vrancic would be jogging in the middle of the park, not even looking to offer an option.

From what I''ve seen he also doesn''t suit the number 10 role. In that position he either needs to be turning to face the defensive midfielders to collect the ball from them, or getting close to the lone striker to take knock downs, flick ons or passes when the ball is behind held up. Vrancic doesn''t seem to really do either.

So you''re left with one of the deeper midfield 2 which I think he could do at home against teams that are going to sit deep and defend where we maybe don''t need to 2 more defensive players. But against the better teams he seems to lightweight to play there.

This again highlights the limits of trying to understand a game through stats and ratings alone. I don''t know of any statistic that can measure how often a player slowed it down too much or how often a player made himself available for the ball.

Vrancic has some real strengths- his range of passing is excellent and with a bit of time and space he can create chances. However his off the ball work is lacking and playing at home against teams looking to defend first and foremost he doesn''t offer enough for me.

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Spot on King canary!

Great post!

At this level Vranic is never going to get the time and space his slow tempo requires for his good passing to be consistently effective!

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Imo we''ll see the best of Vrancic once Pritchard is fit. A front four of -           Maddison Vrancic Pritchard                         Oliveira with the width of  Pinto Stiepermann/Husband coming forwards should see the best of him, with the quality he will have around him.  With respect to Wildschut/Murphy/Watkins who I also like, that midfield comibination of the three best ball players at the club (plus Wes of course who will play a part) should be a winner.

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The gut wrote: "Those that did not see the game and argue their opinion with match stats are way, way down the list."
My post (yesterday at 11:46PM) was a response to the original post by Hoola Han Solo claiming that the only contribution Vrancic makes to a game is "the occasional good pass" (full quote: "Anyone know the point of him other than the occasional good pass? Literally does nothing else "
I was simply pointing out that a player who contributes nothing to a game other than the odd good pass would not end up with the highest player rating. I was not "arguing an opinion" using the quoted stat; I was drawing attention to the discrepancy between the stat and the OP''s opinion. Nor did I anywhere suggest that stats tell the whole story, only that Vrancic''s rating yesterday is, in itself, enough to discredit this particular bit of nonsense by the OP.

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[quote user="kingsway"]Probably need width as though which that formation wouldn''t offer![/quote]  Maddison and Pritchard would have to take some of the wide play themselves, but with Pinto in the team, we will never struggle for width when we need it - and Husband/Stiepermann are quite capable there too.  Wingers are not the be all and end all of this league - effective players are and in Maddison, Vrancic and Pritchard, we have a great combination in prospect.   

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I had no idea I was responding to your post westie. Merely a flow of what I generally believe as opposed to what I was reading throughout the thread.

Not quite sure what point it is you are making because it is fair to say that the ops assessment was not far off the mark and your defence was a stat that probably didn’t mean anything to a lot of footballing fans at the game.

As a matter of interest what registers on the stats data base when someone is doing nothing but coasting around in a positive area?

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]Good job you’re not manager LDC. A shambles of a team you’ve suggested. Maybe we should resign Dorrans and play him on the left?[/quote]At least I can see some point in Vrancic, which is more than you appear to judging by your op.  As others said yesterday, if Wildschut had finished the chance like he should have done, Vrancic would be seen as providing the match winning pass. If Jerome had finished Vrancic''s throughball against Bristol City, as he should have done, Vrancic would have been hailed as the match winner there too.   People see what they want to see. 

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