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king canary

The new normal

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I can take losses to poor teams.

I can take poor performances.

I can take underwhelming signings.

What I''m not sure I can take is the fact we''re now seemingly actively choosing to become less competitive.

In many ways I''ve been lucky. I got my first season ticket in 2001 and since then I''ve seen two play off finals, a League One title, multiple promotions, multiple relegations and a number of seasons in the Premier League. It has been exciting.

But football has changed a huge amount since then. We''re in an era now that a top Championship striker moves for £15m, where League One teams can demand £4-5m for their top prospects, where teams without Premier League money can still spend north of £20m. And we can''t compete with that.

So begins a vicious circle. Sell our best players, try and replace for less money, reduce the wage bill and hope to go up. If we don''t it begins again. We can talk about a rebuild but with the way this league works every season will be a rebuild. If we don''t go up we''ll probably lose Maddison, Nelson, Klose, Pritchard, for £30m odd. And how much can we reinvest of that? How much can we pay those replacements? So whoever is in charge of the team is asked to do less with more and the margins for error get ever tighter.

I can accept this is the current reality but as fans we''ve basically been told ''this is the new normal.'' No investment as the club gets passed down the family line to someone else with no ability to invest. It isn''t just going to be the situation under these owners but also under the next.

This is, of course, the prerogative of the owners. They own the club they can do what they want with it. However if you''re going to tell fans to basically expect midtable football you can''t be surprised if they walk away- and ticket sales can be an equally vicious cycle. If season ticket sales drop then casual tickets become more available, so people don''t feel they need a season ticket and are more willing to let them go. I''m sure I''ll be called a doom-monger but I think two or three years of lower mid-table football and we''ll be seeing 4,000 to 5,000 empty seats every week.

I''ve worked out I spend over £1000 a year following Norwich and I don''t think that is that unusual. How can you ask fans to invest that sort of money and time if the owners won''t?

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I''m sure nobody asked you to choose to spend your money following Norwich. This sense of entitlement is unbelievable Kingo. My advice to you would be if it''s not what you want to do with your spends stop now. You only get one life.

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No. Nobody said that.

If you don''t enjoy what you do with your spends do something else. Life is too short. You''re not investing in anything. You will never get any return except the pleasure of doing it.

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or after spending thousands of pounds doing something he enjoys, he feels the right to say how he sees the degradation of his team in the future. shame on him.

"entitlement" nah, I see disappointment.

maybe someone needs their reading glasses on.

I presume you ''enjoy'' the yellow tinted ones.

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To be fair I went in League One. Im not going to let a midtable season in the championship stop me. There is a sense of entitlement from some tonight. For our size club weve had a pretty good time of it recently. A few have done better, lots have done worse.

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There are two ways to set about promotion.

1. Sell out to a foreign billionaire and watch them invest their fortunes on improving the calibre of players.

2. Settle on a philosophy and drill a squad of moneyball signings to know their jobs and become greater than tge sum of their parts.

With both options you can point to clubs where it has worked and failed.

We are going for option 2. Lets back the project.

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I''ve seen the phrase "sense of entitlement" bandied out on here in the past, what do you actually mean by that Hoggy ?

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[quote user="icoopius"]or after spending thousands of pounds doing something he enjoys, he feels the right to say how he sees the degradation of his team in the future. shame on him.

"entitlement" nah, I see disappointment.

maybe someone needs their reading glasses on.

I presume you ''enjoy'' the yellow tinted ones.[/quote]
That''s not what he''s saying. Here are my reading glasses [8-|]....
[quote user="king canary"] I''ve worked out I spend over £1000 a year following Norwich and I don''t think that is that unusual. How can you ask fans to invest that sort of money and time if the owners won''t?[/quote]
Is it clearer through them?
Have you forgiven me yet for living in Clover Hill[:^)]

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VW, this isnt specific to King who by all accounts is one of the most reasonable posters on this board.

But whats coming across is a bit of "we deserve success and we deserve it now". Well football is quite cyclical and we have by all accounts had a decent run in recent years. Yes we''ve been relegated from the prem but we''ve got ourselves up there in the first place. Lots of bigger clubs havent and its worth remembering that.

So by entitlement i think some fans feel entitled to see us in the prem. Or in the top 6 or whatever.

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I don’t like the current ownership and would like a change, BUT, Hoggy, I don’t feel entitled to be in the Prem or top 6, what I do feel entitled to is to be able to watch a team at home that play entertaining football, having a good go at beating the opposition, rather than watching the turgid garbage we currently get fished up because we are downscaling because of the current financial shortfalls due to in my opinion poor decisions made at the top end of the club!

If we lost games by giving it a bloody good go that would be a lot more acceptable than the current fare on offer

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No it wouldnt be Baldyboy. That was proven with Alex Neil last season. I dont know for sure but ill hazard a guess you posted on here wanting him out. We attacked every game under him pretty much.

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Well, I certainly don''t feel entitled to Premier League football- I''ve watched enough seasons in the Championship and even one in League One to know that Premier League isn''t the be all and end all.

What I do expect though (and I guess you can call it entitlement if you wish) is for the custodians of this club to do as much as they can to maximise our chances of success. I just can''t see an argument though for how signing the club over to their nephew is doing this. For me there is as much a sense of entitlement in our owners thinking the best way forward for the club is to nepotistically keep it in their family.

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[quote user="hogesar"]No it wouldnt be Baldyboy. That was proven with Alex Neil last season. I dont know for sure but ill hazard a guess you posted on here wanting him out. We attacked every game under him pretty much.[/quote]

I didn’t want him out after every game at all, during the run of 10 defeats in 12 games, yes I did want him out sooner than he went, but our owners kept him far too long. As Nutty posts 55 goals at home, whereas this season it’s a measly 6, but if you think Farke is doing a good job by turning 55 goals into 6 then that’s up to you, the football we get dished up currently is turgid and dull but some people enjoy that, I and many others don’t!

Every time there is an international break we hear Farke can sort it out but he shouldn’t wait for a two week break every couple of months to sort problems out, he should be capable of sorting problems out after each game, but for me the biggest problem with Farke is that he appears to have very little knowledge of the English game, which is about to get harder due to heavy pitches and poor weather which in Germany doesn’t happen too often because of the Winter break!

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For some fans, is it more a question of, "So near, yet so far"?

As in, we have been in the Prem, but not quite got ourselves ''Over the line'' in terms of consolidation, there?

We have taken one step, back but still got up to the Prem, again, but slipped away. Now we know, it is not easy to just get promoted, and stay there, but we have had more than one go, over recent times, and now we find ourselves, in the 2nd tier, not (yet) putting the heat, on the top 2 positions.

Is it that scenario that s at the heart of the disappointment/entitlement, etc?

I say this , with people like our neighbours in mind, with their sustained (pretty much, non-eventful) stay in the Championship, or teams further down the Leagues, who can only dream of Prem/Champs football

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Anyone supporting Norwich always has to accept the rough with the smooth. Alas this season looks a write off the changes in the next two transfer windows both in and out will be critical and lets face it anything can happen

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Expectations amongst fans have inevitably been raised by our recent exploits in the PL. Surely that''s normal and only to be expected.

Yes there must always be a sense of realism but having had so many recent seasons in the PL it does smack of failure if we end up losing the parachute payments after three years being stuck in the Championship facing the prospect of selling our best young players.

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Baldy I didnt say you wanted him out after every game, no idea where you got that from.

But youve proven my point. You wanted him out at some point. Even though we scored 55 at home. That suggests your claim if we at least gave it a go but still lost itd be acceptable. The reality is it wouldnt.

All that matters is winning. Thats all you end up caring about.

Also, Farke hasnt turned 55 goals into 6 because presumably we will score again at home this season.

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[quote user="king canary"]Well, I certainly don''t feel entitled to Premier League football- I''ve watched enough seasons in the Championship and even one in League One to know that Premier League isn''t the be all and end all.

What I do expect though (and I guess you can call it entitlement if you wish) is for the custodians of this club to do as much as they can to maximise our chances of success. I just can''t see an argument though for how signing the club over to their nephew is doing this. For me there is as much a sense of entitlement in our owners thinking the best way forward for the club is to nepotistically keep it in their family.[/quote]
But this is the thing Kingo. What if they do think they''re doing all they can? What if they think theirs is the way forward?
Ten years I have been watching thread after thread from folk who know better. We had those who wanted the ambition shown by ipswich in getting Marcus Evans. We had threads about investment, some time more than one time, at Cardiff, Forest, Leeds, Wednesday, QPR, Hull, Birmingham, Blackburn, Portsmouth, Coventry even Notts County with posters wishing it was us. We had real demands for our owners to sell the club after relegation in 2009. They were all valid views but in each case those who wanted that for us have plenty of reason to give thanks it didn''t happen. Will they? Do they? No. They just wait for the next club who they think has attracted wonderful investment and wish it was us. To me those people have already sold us down the river. Those who wanted Evans here by rights should be supporting a club in the position the binners are in. In the real world you don''t get another bite at the cherry. 
The truth is for so many of you whatever our owners have done in the past is never part of any judgement on their capabilities. Only perhaps the league one bit which seems the most important to so many.
As I''ve said so often over the past ten years. We shouldn''t need to be grateful but being ungrateful is the thin end of the wedge.

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I''m not ungrateful though Nutty. But things change, football has changed and in any business things have a shelf life. The ownership model has served us well for a time but football at this level has changed beyond all recognition in the past 5-10 years financially. We now live in an era where £5m+ transfers are not that rare in the Championship. It isn''t ungrateful to suggest that change is needed for us to compete.

I also think you miss that I''m not judging their capabilities as people or as owners, I''m simply looking at what they can bring to the table financially and it isn''t enough. That isn''t their fault and they certainly don''t deserve a lot of the abuse some give. However what is their fault is what can only be seen as either a wilful blindness or a stubborn refusal to accept reality in choosing to keep us at a competitive disadvantage by signing everything over to their nephew.

Sure, they might see it as ''doing all they can'' but I''m waiting for remotely persuasive argument as to why this succession plan is good for the club that doesn''t just go ''but....but...Portsmouth!.''

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[quote user="king canary"]I''m not ungrateful though Nutty. But things change, football has changed and in any business things have a shelf life. The ownership model has served us well for a time but football at this level has changed beyond all recognition in the past 5-10 years financially. We now live in an era where £5m+ transfers are not that rare in the Championship. It isn''t ungrateful to suggest that change is needed for us to compete.

I also think you miss that I''m not judging their capabilities as people or as owners, I''m simply looking at what they can bring to the table financially and it isn''t enough. That isn''t their fault and they certainly don''t deserve a lot of the abuse some give. However what is their fault is what can only be seen as either a wilful blindness or a stubborn refusal to accept reality in choosing to keep us at a competitive disadvantage by signing everything over to their nephew.

Sure, they might see it as ''doing all they can'' but I''m waiting for remotely persuasive argument as to why this succession plan is good for the club that doesn''t just go ''but....but...Portsmouth!.''[/quote]
I didn''t say just Portsmouth. Purposely not because if it were just Portsmouth the odds would be a little better. 
The same old arguments have gone on for ten years. They''re not rich enough. They''ll be happy when we''re in league one. What does a cook know about owning a football club.
Let me turn it around. They''ve been rich enough to get us promoted to the prem three times. When we were in league one they certainly weren''t happy and got us out and to the prem quicktime. The cook knows more than most of the idiots who bought the clubs I listed above.
Not for the first time this last couple of days your views seem to revolve around someones money and little else.

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That reads harsher than I intended it to be Kingo. But it seems you feel the only reason their plan is not good enough is because of money. 
Motive trumps money every time for me.

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You''re still not making an argument for it though. And those ''old arguments'' are, aside from the first one, not ones I''m making.

Yes in the past they''ve got us promoted. In one instance we needed *shock horror* outside investment to secure the permanent signing of the player that acted as the catalyst. The last time we still had the parachute payments to carry us over. Which we''re going to lose if we don''t go up this season.

It is all in the black and white of the accounts, people with much more knowledge that you and I that there is going to be a severe financial shortfall that will result in further slashed wages, further player sales and probably staff redundancies. How is this good for the club?

Portsmouth are also an interesting example now- as despite everything they''ve spent more time in the Premier League in the last 20 years, won the FA cup and are now on the rise again. Is that such an awful fate?

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You are right beyond a doubt that the owners love the club and also right that they don''t have enough money. And again right that we could easily jump from the frying pan into the fire.Unfortunately the lack of Wonga will condemn us to a long period of mediocrity that many of the newcomers are unfamiliar with. You and I may be used to having patience but many will fall by the wayside.Plenty of choices for seats is about the only positive I can see at the moment or if we fall a bit further we can have a return to the joys of giant killing in the cups.Every silver lining has a cloudor vice versa.

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[quote user="king canary"]You''re still not making an argument for it though. And those ''old arguments'' are, aside from the first one, not ones I''m making.

Yes in the past they''ve got us promoted. In one instance we needed *shock horror* outside investment to secure the permanent signing of the player that acted as the catalyst. The last time we still had the parachute payments to carry us over. Which we''re going to lose if we don''t go up this season.

It is all in the black and white of the accounts, people with much more knowledge that you and I that there is going to be a severe financial shortfall that will result in further slashed wages, further player sales and probably staff redundancies. How is this good for the club?

Portsmouth are also an interesting example now- as despite everything they''ve spent more time in the Premier League in the last 20 years, won the FA cup and are now on the rise again. Is that such an awful fate?[/quote]
I''m afraid it is an awful fate. Just like the binners. Portsmouth and the binners own nothing. They are now tinpot little clubs. You may be happy with that but I''m not. 

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[quote user="ricardo"]You are right beyond a doubt that the owners love the club and also right that they don''t have enough money. And again right that we could easily jump from the frying pan into the fire.Unfortunately the lack of Wonga will condemn us to a long period of mediocrity that many of the newcomers are unfamiliar with. You and I may be used to having patience but many will fall by the wayside.Plenty of choices for seats is about the only positive I can see at the moment or if we fall a bit further we can have a return to the joys of giant killing in the cups.Every silver lining has a cloudor vice versa.[/quote]
I may be right about those things and I may not. But what I know I''m right about is that more money with the wrong motive is worse than the right motive without so much money.

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Indeed, but being NCFC supporters we want and expect big money with good motives.When do we want it

NOW.[Y]

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Whether you like it or not Nigel, today’s game IS all about money because that’s why everyone goes on about the money you get even for finishing bottom of the Premier League, and is why so many Championship clubs spend stupid money on players to try to get there, as it’s deemed the promised land. So yes money does matter, it’s now about transfer fees and wages and whether you like it or not our owners don’t have the wealth to compete in the current climate.

It’s a fantasy to think that this new plan is going to produce the required level of player to get us up the top again, not in the near future anyway, it’s like all the people saying we need a striker in January, which is true, but the reality is a decent striker costs millions and we keep getting told we haven’t got millions to spend!

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It isn''t a zero sum game though is it? Plenty of owners have both money and motive. Look at Middlesbrough- an owner who both cares deeply about the club and can invest. Or Peter Coates at Stoke. Or even one of the number of foreign owners who have come in and invested in clubs like Man City, Bournemouth or Watford. There is bit of mentality that only someone local who has grown up a fan can care enough about the club but that isn''t true.

The worst case scenario is you end up with an Evans type- has the money but doesn''t care enough to use it. However I''m not sure having all the right motives but none of the money is a hugely positive situation either.

Oh and Portsmouth do own their ground so not that tinpot...

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