Vrancic

[westcoastcanary 173]

I quoted that stat to refute the claim that Vrancic makes only half hearted attempts to win the ball. Of course there is more to making a significant contribution to the collective defence than simply making tackles, but making tackles is a major part of it. Who of Maddison, Hoolahan, Murphy, Watkins etc. would you argue makes more of a contribution from forward midfield?

[Van wink 2,994]

He fitted in to a generally under par performance by the team last night against a very good team.

Please don''t single him out!

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="Hairy Canary"]It took a while to come. I expected Indy Bones to have his heat map and successful pass rate to disprove what most at the game saw with their own eyes but that''s an impressive try West Coast.[/quote]I wasn''t , and said specifically that I wasn''t, commenting about last night''s game Hairy. I was refuting the generalised slur on Vrancic that some keep posting on here.

[By Heck It's Fleck 10]

I''d like to have seen him bust a gut to make that header last night, I suppose that wouldn''t even be classed as an attempted tackle though, so hard to judge from stats alone.

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="By Heck Its Fleck"]I''d like to have seen him bust a gut to make that header last night, I suppose that wouldn''t even be classed as an attempted tackle though, so hard to judge from stats alone.[/quote]If you want to make a general accusation against a player, stats are a far more reliable basis than one incident in one game. 

[king canary 7,562]

Watching the game is also a decent way of doing it.

[Hairy Canary 667]

If you weren''t commenting on last nights game West Coast why did you post up stats that related to that game to "refute the generalized slur"?

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="Hairy Canary"]If you weren''t commenting on last nights game West Coast why did you post up stats that related to that game to "refute the generalized slur"?[/quote]The stats weren''t just for yesterday''s game; they were the players''s average number of successful tackles per game over all his appearances this season:

Quote: "The reality is that, of our midfielders only Trybull averages more successful tackles per game, with Vrancic rated equal second with Reid."

[canarydan23 4,060]

I wouldn''t mind seeing him alongside Trybull in the 2 of our 4-2-3-1 formation.

We''d sacrifice a bit of solidity, but with him alongside Trybull, with the latter doing a lot of the dirty work, we could have a Xavi Alonso-esque presence pinging dangerous balls from deep. It''d be risky and would make us a lot more open than having a Reed or Tettey alongside Trybull, but if his tackling is as good as the stats suggest, we might gain a significant attacking and creative presence without sacrificing too much defensively. And at the moment, we need to do something to give us a bit more bite going forwards.

Something like

Gunn

Pinto Klose Zimmerman Stipermann

Vrancic Trybull

Murphy Maddison Wildschut

Oliviera

Plenty of pace to chase onto Vrancic''s delicate balls over the top or slide rule passes.

As a quarter of our four attacking players, Vrancic does not offer anywhere near enough; he''s a passenger we cannot afford to carry.

[king canary 7,562]

@canarydan

I can see that being an option when playing at home against teams that just want to sit deep- Hull and Burton spring to mind as examples.

[canarydan23 4,060]

Exactly, we struggle to beat the teams who shut up shop, he could provide a further string to our attacking bow from there.

In the front three behind a striker, I struggle to see what he does offer. No solidity to the full-back, no pace to beat a man, no quick touch passes to unlock a defence, no tendency to get wide and cross, seemingly no desire or ability to have a go from distance, nothing.

He also seems to struggle when not given significant time on the ball. He likes to stop the ball, get his head up, assess his surroundings and then distribute the ball. Too often he has a player on him before he even gets his head up and loses the ball, often leading to a dangerous counter attack. In front of the back four, he''s likely to get more time on the ball to pick a dangerous pass.

Admittedly if he then lost the ball we''d be in a much more dangerous position, but with someone as good as Trybull has been (Saturday and Tuesday aside), I think he can do a decent enough job of covering for him.

I know Farke might be reluctant to drop the two defensive midfielder partnership, as it was the implementation of Trybull and Tettey that stopped the goals conceded column rising embarrassingly quickly, but it was this change that bought Trybull to the team; we don''t know how our Tom would get on playing as a solo, or almost solo, holding midfielder. I suspect he would do a much better job than Reed or Tettey managed.

[GJP 79]

There would be a worrying lack of pace with Vrancic alongside Trybull. Trybull is slow and needs someone who can cover the ground a bit quicker- like Tettey or Reed.

[king canary 7,562]

I''ve never thought of Trybull as slow but thinking about I don''t see him running much to judge.

[GJP 79]

He''s really slow. Once the opposition have gone past him he can''t recover.

[canarydan23 4,060]

Tettey and Reed aren''t exactly Usain Bolt.

[GJP 79]

But they do get around the pitch quicker.

[westcoastcanary 173]

canarydan23 wrote: He likes to stop the ball, get his head up, assess his surroundings and then distribute the ball. Too often he has a player on him before he even gets his head up and loses the ball, often leading to a dangerous counter attack. In front of the back four, he''s likely to get more time on the ball to pick a dangerous pass. "

If memory serves me, this is pretty much how Vrancic described himself when he first signed, his favoured position/style. He said he would like to contribute more further forward, and score more goals than he does, but indicated that doing so would involve a shift from his usual style and role.

[westcoastcanary 173]

Just to add, he certainly gave the impression that he saw himself as a deep lying, attacking midfielder as opposed to a DM.  

[Indy_Bones 441]

Vrancic''s problem is simply down to position, he''s not quick or the type of player to beat a man on the wing, he isn''t a defensive player although I firmly feel that he does contribute to this are far more than players like Wes or Maddison, and he''s either got to be played behind a pacy striker who can run on his through balls, or played a''la Pirlo (or even Fox) in a deep-lying playmaker role with a defensive mid alongside him.I''m not going to bang on about Stats Hairy, even though in a large percentage of the metrics, Vrancic has been one of our better overall players so far this season, and the things that fans claim he doesn''t do, the stats clearly show in fact he really does....

[king canary 7,562]

But where do you play home then Indy? It''s another situation where a player seems to need a team built around him or other players shunted out of position to suit him and I just don''t see enough from him to make it worth doing that.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

If people are liking him to Surman, then does anyone know how Bournemouth get the best out of Surman?

[Baldyboy 0]

So Indy it just shows how stupid stats are! If you actually watched him on Tuesday he barely got a trot on, he may complete a lot of passes but that’s not hard when most of them are safe easy sideways passes!

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="king canary"]But where do you play him then Indy? It''s another situation where a player seems to need a team built around him or other players shunted out of position to suit him and I just don''t see enough from him to make it worth doing that.[/quote]This dilemma has arisen as a result of two crucial developments, firstly the huge stride forward taken by Maddison, described by Parma in Masterclass 16 as "a remarkable promotion in a short space of time"; secondly (forced upon Farke rather than freely chosen), the pragmatic requirement for a second DM. In the early games we played with one DM (Reid) and Maddison as deep lying playmaker through whom balls were channelled out of defence. My belief is that had Maddison not shown himself ready to shoulder that responsibility, it would have been Vrancic playing that role (indeed, when he signed, most did see him as Webber''s pick as replacement for Graham Dorrans). The result has been that Vrancic has found himself having to adapt to playing further forward, and often on the right rather than centrally, so largely neutering his primary skills. As Indy_Bones points out, being falsely accused of contributing nothing in the face of performance stats to the contrary, simply adds insult to injury.

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="Baldyboy"]So Indy it just shows how stupid stats are! If you actually watched him on Tuesday he barely got a trot on, he may complete a lot of passes but that’s not hard when most of them are safe easy sideways passes![/quote]No, it shows just how stupid it is to think that his performance on Tuesday is representative of his performance over all the games he has played this season. Trybull and several others had equally poor games on Tuesday so I suppose we should write them off as similarly hopeless too.

[Baldyboy 0]

I’ve seen every home game and every time he’s played he’s been awful, maybe go and watch for yourself before dismissing Tuesday as a one off because it certainly wasn’t a one off!

[kingsway 94]

Vrancic =

Good passer

Slow, one paced, doesn''t close down enough or quick enough and is a weak tackler.

All in all adds up to not being good enough for Norwich City in the Championship regardless of stats or the fact he''s played for his Country!

If we had a full squad he''d be a benchwarmer at best!

Perversely one of his best games for us was at Arsenal last week showing he''d likely be more effective in the Premiership where the football is not as "bish, bash, bosh"! as the Championship!

[GJP 79]

Probably the best passer we''ve got. But he lacks "omph".

He can get people in but we are short of people to get in.

[hogesar 9,611]

To be fair he had a poor game Tuesday and the problem is when we arent playing particularly well he appears a bit of a passenger - even though he was actually a bit more than that. I still think he is most likely to create something with one pass but at the moment theres at best one option in front of him

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Something that Vrancic does do - which is likely to be unnoticed and unappreciated - is to hold Station when we attack, drifting into good positions preventing opposition counter attacks. Thanks s typically also allows him additional space and time, just behind play, to receive a pass and subsequently pick the key passa-gol (possible assist pass).

Such tactical discipline tends not to be recognised as fans are watching the attacking play, typically focusing on what is happening or could happen in a positive sense, rather than the structural shape of the side when overloaded, or over-committed to a particular attack.

This was our fundamental weakness under Alex Neil and accounted for multiple, groundhog-day scenarios of nearly scoring, followed by simple 2D counters scored against us by inferior-looking sides.

Motivating against such counters in real time on the pitch takes a particular kind of tactical and spatial awareness and a nose for possible danger, regardless how close to scoring one may be. It is a disciplined, cool-headed and necessary skill that we have lacked until recent times.

Tettey for example, despite being defensive in style, is often seen to lack this judgment. He is often exposed by his puppyish ball-.chasing tendencies. Running about is only valuable if you are not already in position.

It is fair to say that Vrancic is adapting to the Championship, though his set piece abilities are a major weapon that should be factored in to his selection. As Westcoast says, had Maddison not made such a spectacular impact, Vrancic would be more central Tactically, formation-wise and might well be on all set pieces. Central players are more involved in the game, which ‘comes to them’ in a way that doesn’t happen with other positions.

Parma

[Baldyboy 0]

Parma, ad he’s being picked as one of the attacking 3 behind the striker, he should not hold station, that’s why there are two defensive midfielders, surely he should be further up the pitch when attacking!